Skilling Up

[Vandiyan]

I recently was booted from a party for not having skilled my Scythe up to Vorpal Scythe. From the sounds of it it will be hard for me to get a party without this weapon skill right now. Is there anyway that I would be able to skill up to Vorpal Scythe (I have the weapon skill right below that one) solo? I know that you can sometimes find "skill up" parties in Jeuno, but I would like to try and find a place that I would be able to solo. Any suggestions would be great. Thank you very much for your help.

/edit Just saw the skill up topic under mine. I dont think it answers the question on if there is a place to solo though.

[Khevn]

Take your scythe and shout for skill up parties. +acc food helps u lvl quicker, make sure your using the fastest possible scythe. more hits faster skill.

Make sure u can actually hit the monsters your are fighting to skill up.

[Kosy]

Re: Skilling Up

When someone shouts for help with Rank 5 mission, go then. You can skillup since everyone will be training everything from here to there and more than likely, you'll go in a large alliance anyway ...

That is, of course, depends on what level you are. You mentioned not having Vorpal Scythe and people in your PT complaining ... maybe that's level 40sh? I forget ;p If it's so, skill up on Genkai 1 ><;;

[Jei]

Re: Skilling Up

to cap your skill at your level you really can't solo. You need groups really. Look for key hunting/skill up groups, or if you have some high level ninja friend willing to talk for you, you can do that too.

[Mithrael]

Re: Skilling Up

It's funny that this anti-Great Sword bias still exists. Really, from 1-49, Great Sword is superior to Scythe in DoT, WS damage, and renkei compatibility. From 49-59, they're about equivalent. 60-65 Great Sword is more renkei compatible, while Scythe offers more WS damage, but only if you're partied with a WAR or SAM and can use Guillotine. 65 is Scythe's one great moment. For one level, it's stronger in every regard. 66-72 it's Great Sword pretty much all the way. 72+ whatever you feel like since the mobs die so fast it really doesn't matter.

After 65, you pretty much only use Scythe if you're in a party with few renkei options, or it's your responsibility to set initial hate in an HNM fight.

[fuz]

Re: Skilling Up

Er, scythe DoT is better for most of the game (particularly with war sub). Gswd is pitiful, with the only redeeming values of better SC compatability and spinning slash.

[Icemage]

Re: Skilling Up

Er, scythe DoT is better for most of the game (particularly with war sub). Gswd is pitiful, with the only redeeming values of better SC compatability and spinning slash.

This is not true. Mithrael's comments abot GSwd being superior pre-50 are borne out by experience, and I definitely agree. Not only is Gswd better DoT in that range, but Gswd has slightly friendlier SC-characteristics in that range.

Spinning Slash is just a terrific WS. Does a ton of damage, and gets a very hefty boost from Sneak Attack, if you're using /THF.


Icemage

[Mithrael]

Re: Skilling Up

On any high defense mob, great sword almost always outparses scythe for me. it hits less hard, duh, but it also hits once more per minute. If you keep up with good greatswords, it's not pitiful at all.

In fact, at most levels, GSWD DoT is better:

Icebrand 7.36 vs. Mythril Scythe 7.27
Glorious Sword 8.95 vs. Barbarian's Scythe 8.64
Zweihander 10 vs. Vassago's Scythe 9.55
Balin's Sword 10.5 vs. Death Scythe 11.02


And this isn't even taking into consideration that you can safely use a GSWD+1 without messing up your TP gain/swing while you cannot use a Scythe+1 or a non-drk Scythe without requiring a full extra swing for 100%+ tp. Though, I will concede that with the new CoP ring, assuming you can get it, The scythe+1 issue no longer exists.

Unlocked Subduer 11.49 vs. Death Scythe +1 11.46

Edit: Since someone will ask, basic DoT based on:
DMG / (Delay / 60)
That will give you your base damage per second assuming you have identical STR to the mob's VIT, Attack to it's Defense, and roll 1's in the random number generator.

[fuz]

Re: Skilling Up

My experience goes the other direction, since gswd caps out in damage with attack faster than a scythe.

I'm not sure how you calculated the numbers, but I'm getting different. (Stored infinite decimal variables in memory for more accurate figures.)

Weapon1 base damage / Delay = X
Weapon2 base damage / Delay = Y

Fill into:

100X/Y = Z

|Z-100| = the % difference in DoT

- Mithril Scythe is ~4% higher in DoT than Icebrand
- Glorious is ~3.6% higher than Barbarian's, but I haven't factored in the attack and -acc (it's also a lower level weapon). Compare a more on level Bone scythe to Glorious, and the Bone is ~4% higher in DoT.
- Zewi is ~4.5% higher in DoT than Vassago's. I can't really factor the +5acc, but one obvious point is that you now have guillotine while Zewi only has sickle moon.
- Deathscythe is about 5% higher than Balin’s, but did not factor in the +str.

Also not factored here is:

- Higher skill rating on scythe.
- Higher damage rating which gives more room to stack attack before capping out for exponential increases in damage. With berserk up and a scythe, I hit nearly twice as hard as I would with /thf and a gswd, if the weapon isn't limiting me.
- The WS that scythe has, work better as a DoT-er with /war sub; guillotine, cross reaper. Gswd tends only to have single hitters, not very good with /war sub, and only good with /thf if you can get 100% before the mob dies. If you must WS every other fight, damage goes down. Must also close a SC, otherwise, the difference in bonus damage you do versus another job is gone, lowering output further.
- Subduer is possibly the best drk weapon on paper, but it has drawbacks, notably--no spamable multi-hit to boost damage on VT/low IT mobs. So then you use it with /thf, problem now is TP gain and lack of berserk to make use of the higher damage rating. I do not know how it performs compared to the Martial sword since I don't have a Subduer. But the ~5% increase in DoT over Deathscythe (not including crit boost) is marginal. Say you do 2000 damage per fight, 5% of that is 100--not much. But you now settle for spinning slash instead of guillotine, which is like 600-700, versus 500-1000 on /war sub. Scythe will still on average, kill faster.
- Souleater works better on faster weapons, though with only sickle moon as the best multi-hit on gswd, it could go either way.

/war versus /thf

I won’t bother arguing about that, since it could go on a lot longer, even though gswd and /thf are intrinsically linked. Suffice to say, either one can be better than the other in a given situation. /thf is great when closing a SC or even simple damage on IT+ (or higher) mobs once you get to lvl3 SC, but when you depend on regular melee hits and a quick WS for damage on VT/IT, /war and scythe wins out in my book.

[Mithrael]

Re: Skilling Up

You are calculating damage per swing, not damage per second. you need to divide delay by 60 to get the per second value. basically, you're not comparing them on a single time line, but one two separate time lines. I posted it before, but to determine DoT you need to do the following:

Delay / 60 = Time in seconds between each swing

DMG / (Delay / 60) = DPS

Make sense?

- Higher skill doesn't become an issue until lv.61, and even at lv.75 we're talking about 7 points of skill difference.
- Bone Scythe isn't a feasible upgrade to a barbarian's scythe since doesn't get 12.5+ tp per swing.
- Lack of multi-hit weapon skill isn't an issue since guillotine is renkei-incompatible with most jobs.

At lv.75, everything goes out the window, and the whole thing doesn't matter anymore. DRK can fight with sword, greatsword, axe, scythe, or great axe more-or-less equally well on VT mobs with war sub at lv.75. After all, DRK is only second to WAR with renkei-compatibility (tied with sam) and weapon availability at lv.75.

At this point it's an academic argument. I'm not sure why it is that your experience as you remember it from your earlier levels is so much different than mine. But I had hours and hours of parsed logs to back up my decisions about which weapons were useful at which time. Our perceptions of our damage are often incorrect.

[fuz]

Re: Skilling Up

I am not calculating damage per swing, I'm calculating damage/delay. The only difference is that you put yours into per second, while mine is per frame. We are both calculating damage/time. The % value between us should be the same, but it's not. I don't know why yours is different--perhaps rounding?

What I did was cross multiply, divide, and add a percentage modifier.

- Skill, no matter how small, is still a difference. Weapons of comparable level are generally within 5% of each other, and +1 versions tend to have another ~2-4% higher damage performance. It doesn't seem like much in each individual %, but add them up and they become significant (like haste items).

- Bone scythe is perfectly feasible, since rarely do we start a WS perfectly at 100%. Often as puller/backup tank/frontliner, I gain a few points of TP from getting hit by an attack or AoE. WS tend to happen over 100%TP. In that case, the perfect 100% is negligible, especially since /thf sub is not used. I also can't say for sure what the DoT of barbarian's is, since I'm not able to accurately predict what the +attack and -acc do, as mob, equipment, and levels change. Who knows, maybe the lack of -acc on the bone keeps the TP gain just as good as barbarian's. But, bone can be calculated right now--easily to show that it has a higher damage/delay ratio.

- Lack of multi-hit is not negligible since guillotine spam--not SCs is what drives mass VT exp chains. 500-1000 damage without SA is nothing to sneeze at, and you get berserk+double attack or meditate+tp store depending on which sub you take. Guillo isn't the most SC friendly, but it's not the worst. The fragmentation SC you get with raging rush and sidewinder/slug is great on the stuff in cape terrigan if you're still there, and it also eats up crawlers with ease, as all multi-hits do. It works in a pinch with penta thrust, and you can MB a drain on crawler for very significant damage. Can use it with tachi:koki for ok fragmentation damage as well with a sam. So that only leaves out monk and thf as totally incompatible--that's not "most jobs" to me.

It's still better than closing SA+sickle moon on toramas, which ranged from 300-600 damage for me, more often hitting for 350; which is the on the low side of damage with guillotine. Especially with a bard in your PT, the lack of a "spamable" WS for gsword hurts.

- 444 Delay weapons get to >100%TP faster than 528 Delay (~4 seconds faster), however unlike straight DoT melee swings, People don't always use WS a.s.a.p. They wait to sc, wait for the tank to hold hate, wait to use buffs, etc, so that time advantage is minor.

At level 75, it's as if we're back to the dunes era of uncoordinated attacking. Nothing goes out the window, it's just that all options are open. Can set up a SC for MB (if you have a blm), or just burn TP when you have it. I find guillotine to be better served than spinning slash, and I find that scythe hits for more DoT than gsword. I don't have time to pull a SA+spinning (or any WS) in each fight since /thf gains TP too slow, and without SA, the lvl 225 and quested WS don't perform well. In my parsed results, /war hits peak damage every fight, while /thf with slow TP gain only hits peak performance every other fight, coinciding with when I WS.

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Here's my raw data from weapon base damage (no extra stats included) divided by delay. To get it into weapon damage / sec, multiply the number by 60.

Level Equiped / DoT / Name

73 0.19103313840155945419103313840156 Death Scythe +1
72 0.18371212121212121212121212121212 Death Scythe
72 0.17424242424242424242424242424242 Martial Scythe
65 0.17543859649122807017543859649123 Darksteel Scythe +1
65 0.16856060606060606060606060606061 Darksteel Scythe
58 0.15909090909090909090909090909091 Vassago's Scythe
53 0.16155419222903885480572597137014 Bone Scythe +1
53 0.15537848605577689243027888446215 Bone Scythe
49 0.14393939393939393939393939393939 Barbarian's Scythe
40 0.12670565302144249512670565302144 Mithril Scythe +1
40 0.12121212121212121212121212121212 Mithril Scythe
30 0.096590909090909090909090909090909 Mercenary'sCpt. Scythe

73 0.17500000000000000000000000000000 Balin's Sword
72 0.19144144144144144144144144144144 Subduer
72 0.16891891891891891891891891891892 Martial Sword
71 0.18240343347639484978540772532189 Nagan +1
71 0.17500000000000000000000000000000 Nagan
66 0.17381974248927038626609442060086 Mithril Heart +1
66 0.16666666666666666666666666666667 Mithril Heart
62 0.16458333333333333333333333333333 Arondight
60 0.17381489841986455981941309255079 Zwei +1
60 0.16666666666666666666666666666667 Zewi
54 0.15157894736842105263157894736842 Darksteel Claymore +1
54 0.14519427402862985685071574642127 Darksteel Claymore
53 0.14912280701754385964912280701754 Glorious Sword
47 0.13304721030042918454935622317597 Fussar +1
47 0.12708333333333333333333333333333 Fussar
41 0.12641083521444695259593679458239 Great Sword +1
41 0.12061403508771929824561403508772 Great Sword
39 0.11622807017543859649122807017544 Ice Brand
36 0.10904872389791183294663573085847 Fine Claymore
36 0.1036036036036036036036036036036 Mithril Claymore
33 0.10213776722090261282660332541568 Falx +1
33 0.097674418604651162790697674418605 Falx
31 0.096491228070175438596491228070175 Demonic Sword
27 0.092550790067720090293453724604966 Hellfire Sword
27 0.087719298245614035087719298245614 Inferno Sword

I see:
Ice Brand at ~6.97, Mithril Scythe ~7.27
Glorious Sword 8.95, Barbarian's Scythe 8.64, Bone Scythe 9.32
Zweihander ~10, Vassago's Scythe ~9.55
Balin's Sword ~10.5, Death Scythe ~11.02

What we can't see is that the more attack you have the faster your damage goes up. Attack seems to boost damage exponentially until it hits a cap based on weapon, which I'm guessing is why I hit twice as hard even though berserk is only +25% attack. Thus, even between a Zwei and a Mithril Heart which have the same DoT, when swapping between the two, my melee output slightly edges out the zwei in my parsed logs with the mithril's higher damage and better use of attack. (I think my attack got capped on the Zwei's lower base damage by 65.) Not to mention that spinning slash damage was significantly better with Mithril Heart. So the base damage on the scythe is definitely an advantage not borne out in linear DoT figures here.

[tdh]

Re: Skilling Up

Back to what the original poster asked for....

Vorpal Scythe is Scythe Lv.150 and DRK learns that at Lv.49. I learned this out in Altepa, against beetles. I had a THF55 and a WHM58 help me out with it.

Unfortunately you don't have a /WAR25 for Double Attack to help you level faster. So I just fought against Even Match beetles out there. We managed to get out there when there weren't any BSTs out there leveling. So we had a decent pick of beetles to level with. It didn't take very long to get it done, though I can't recall exactly how long it took.

I tried to do this solo at first, and it didn't go so well. I thought I could try and use Bloody Bolts and Sleep Bolts, but no go. As an Elvaan, with only Lv.100 Marksmanship, I couldn't rely on the Bloody Bolt and the Sleep Bolts to save my butt. I actually died waiting for the THF to join me. That's when I called the WHM friend from my LS, and she stayed out there with us until I got Vorpal Scythe.

[Kosy]

Re: Skilling Up

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with Icemage. My experience has shown that the scythe (Because of a higher skill cap and greater damage range) does more damage. The difference in delay is almost negligible in real world figures because:

(a) Most exp fights don't last long enough for your non-one-minute JAs to refresh itself for use the second time around
(b) Scythe has a faster-to-TP ratio than greatsword and because of this, you can use the WS quicker which allows for fights to end faster.

The only advantages that I seen going through the 30s and 40s of a great sword (I can't comment on the 50s since I neglected my duty as a DRK and abandoned the great sword in favor of convenience/laziness) is that it is skill chain friendly, but at the same time, the burst damage of the WS and effect was still pitiful at times. The only way around this was to lead into a SC which a THF ends - what situation is any different at these levels anyway - and that doesn't happen in all parties.

With a sub WAR in the 50s, scythe truly shines. In a quick instance, you get 25% TP on one round whereas a greatsword wielder gets only 22% at the most. This translates to a full round in order for a WS to be ready and from my own experience with other DRKs that did use greatswords, I was able to miss less from the skill cap as well.

Also, Mithrael neglected the damage range on weapons. This is the modifier to use on defense calculations. I really am puzzled why you use DPS values, since that is meaningless in the moment of the swing ... go to any AH and do a quick scan and you will see that the high delay weapons have a greater per damage. Just because you have a greater DPS doesn't necessarily mean you will have a greater damage value on defense calculations. Look at daggers if you don't believe me ...