DRK/WAR vs. DRK/THF

[Jonobirdy]

I know I need to use WAR as a sub for DRK until lvl 60 but I feel Berserk + Last Resort is better damagewise than SATA.

I am lvl 37 fighting in Crawlers' Nest with sub WAR and I am using Berserk/LR quite often dealing about 80+ dmg each regular hit (similar to Souleater without losing HP and attracting any hate).
But with SATA I would get a high lvl of dmg but would only last one hit and also attract hate most times.

Also voking off the tank when they are in trouble is useful as well.

Any help will be really apprectiated thank you!!

[jmedno5891]

Well later on your job will be to close sc with as much dmg as possible to make a good sc. DoT will not be as important as it was at lower lvls since mobs will die from the MB anyway, and as for drawing attention to yourself...SATA is meant to draw put hate on someone else, not yourself so you really shouldnt worry about it ^^ and even if you do draw attention the MB will finish the mob off 90% of the time.

[Jonobirdy]

Thanks for that!!

So you are suggesting I should stick with sub WAR until lvl 60 and then change to THF?

[Jei]

i think awntawn made a really good explanation about that in his guide
http://ffxionline.com/forums/showthr...threadid=23917
scroll down a bit.

[Jonobirdy]

Thank you for sending that info. That has really cleared the air for me. Thank you.

Time to LEVEL UP!!!!!

[Kosy]

Actually, it's not cut and dry as laid out in that FAQ. Basically, the way I keep it simple for this is if my PT, depending on where we decide to go and level and who is the other melee I'm performing skillchains with, decides on Darkness or Light, I will choose my subjob. If it's Scythe, then I will sub WAR (because TP gaining is a problem with super high delay weapon like Scythe, which is second to gun in delay) and if it's Greatsword, I will use THF. SATA is useless on Cross Reaper as it is a 2hit WS and the damage is marginal if best from a subjob THF (SA is automatically gimped and TA is only a hate displacer, remember this - FAQ needs to be updated to reflect this SE nerfing) However, it is great on Spinning Slash since it's like Hard Slashl; an all-or-nothing weapon skill.

I have a friend on Asura who has subbed WAR to DRK for 74 levels now and with Scythe and have not had issues with this and is actually outperforming about half of the RNGs she PTs with. Darkness is destructive against Arcane type mobs, which is what you are fighting in Sky mostly (Dolls, Pots, etc.) Yet PTs only talk about Light this, Light that. Spinning Slash is good in damage, but people need to learn how to use each elemental property for different situations. It's become as abusive as a RNG wanting to use Sidewinder/Slug Shot on 100% of all monsters he/she fights from level 5x to 75. Sometimes, that isn't exactly the ideal or efficient use of your abilities.

Sig below, damage is with WAR sub, not THF. I say it was pretty decent (I only got away doing this because the PLD was uncommonly good and I would just run behind him for Cover anyway)

[fuz]

The main reason /thf sub is viable post lvl 66 is because it puts out similar damage to /war (if, and only if closing the SC), while placing hate on someone else so blm and rng can go nuts afterwards. So lots of people start requesting /thf along with a fully leveled gsword at that point.

Not to mention drk/war pulls hate just a bit too easily... an absorb, berserk, double attack, a critical... yay I got hit and 30% of my hp is gone! :p

There really isn't any other job besides sam that can get away with subbing /thf in an exp pt. This is entirely because the late game WS for greatsword and greatkatana are highly amplified in damage with SA (along with the SC)--enough to put off the gimpy regular hits, although sam may have to stack a lot of str gear on SA to do so. Other jobs generally suffer a damage penalty subbing thf, hnms excepted.

I'd have to say SA+cross reaper isn't bad though. It's usually just 100-200 points lower than spinning (if both hits land), but scythe does better normal damage. I will admit it is more oriented for war sub, since unlike spinning, cross rarely misses completely with its more accurate two hits.

[Kosy]

Originally posted by fuz
The main reason /thf sub is viable post lvl 66 is because it puts out similar damage to /war (if, and only if closing the SC), while placing hate on someone else so blm and rng can go nuts afterwards. So lots of people start requesting /thf along with a fully leveled gsword at that point.

I don't know if you're familiar with this saying, but let me just share it with you. A friend told me this once, as he is a BRD (Now in his 70s). "I'm not like any other BRD, who have insane expectations and _requirements_ to accept a PT invite. However, I have only one pet peeve. I will NEVER be in a PT that has both a PLD AND a THF. Either one is fine, but NEVER together."

It doesn't take a brain of a rocket scientist to understand what he means. Believe me, just last night, I totally wished I subbed WAR instead of THF. The +200 to Spinning Slash just wasn't worth the loss of 300 damage overall on each fight from Berserk.

Not to mention drk/war pulls hate just a bit too easily... an absorb, berserk, double attack, a critical... yay I got hit and 30% of my hp is gone! :p

Berserk doesn't add hate. It increases your damage potential, but that rarely gets me into trouble. I should know as I'm still subbing WAR right now and not having issues with this.

There really isn't any other job besides sam that can get away with subbing /thf in an exp pt. This is entirely because the late game WS for greatsword and greatkatana are highly amplified in damage with SA (along with the SC)--enough to put off the gimpy regular hits, although sam may have to stack a lot of str gear on SA to do so. Other jobs generally suffer a damage penalty subbing thf, hnms excepted.

I disagree. First of all, do a normal SATA on the tank at the beginning of a fight. Then, in the next 3 normal swings, take the average of those non-SATA damages. Now, compare it with your SATA damage. The difference is what you're getting from that JA. Now, look at your average damage from WS (I'm not talking about your 1,500 Spinning Slash that only happens on a full moon-lightsday on a Doomed Flesh mob) Just think, how much more damage am I getting from this? Then look at the miss opportunities from TP gainage and normal and 'Zerked damage from subbing WAR (Even without berserk, WAR sub deals more normal damage per swing than THF sub) Last night, I barely broke 100 on SATA normal, which was a disgrace, as I would be averaging that amount and more while being Berserked. Yes, SE super-nerfed SA to the point where it's almost useless to sub THF. I pity those DRK/THF that never subbed WAR in their entire time leveling DRK (Or those who only subbed it once or twice at level 40) They could never do a justified comparison between the two.

I'd have to say SA+cross reaper isn't bad though. It's usually just 100-200 points lower than spinning (if both hits land), but scythe does better normal damage. I will admit it is more oriented for war sub, since unlike spinning, cross rarely misses completely with its more accurate two hits. [/B]

Cross Reaper is more effective on sub WAR, not only because SA does nothing more for the damage boost (50 to 100 more pts. of damage is hardly a justification) but because a miss on a Scythe is horrible with a sub THF due to the fact there is no "fail safe" mechanism in place. This is where so many DRKs make the mistake of dismissing the potential of Double Attack. DA kicks in more times than a DRK/THF would like to admit and is very much needed for 510+ delay weapons like Scythe. The quicker you can get the TP on Scythe, the better since you're more than likely be able to use Cross Reaper at 150% tp than 100% tp on a sub THF.


Also, let me add a quick note. Last night, I partied in Bibiki Bay. I was here before about 4 nights ago. Last night, I was a DRK/THF. The previous night, I was DRK/WAR. There were times when the PLD moved when I used TA+SL (SA is useless when mob is faced at you) and SL missed. Completely. This happened quite a bit with other circumstances too (Last night, you name anything, it happened >.>) I missed 5 SLs last night. However, the previous night, mind you, same level, capped skills, etc. (nothing changed, same food, everything was the same) I missed ZERO SLs. Yes ... zero. Maybe subbing THF makes you miss on WS since I've had this happen with Guillotine too (Like landing only one of 4 hits) with THF and not WAR sub ...

[fuz]

Just because you paraphrase something from someone else, doesn't mean it's the right way. I think you're looking at /thf in the wrong way the way you think I'm looking at /war in the wrong way. (And actually, I highly dislike thief mainjob in a pt--they tend to slow down exp by making things complicated.)

I rarely get only +200 to spinning slash from SA, it goes from 600-700 to 900-1100, and never misses. (Using a mithril heart, btw.) And then there there is the Light SC. Lets see the math.

650 WS + 650 light = 1300 total
1000WS + 1000 light = 2000 total

So there is a 700dmg increase in average WS+SC damage from thf sub, not 200--which is what offsets the low melee damage and slower tp gain, and in some cases (like very high IT) /thf surpasses /war. The damage is very consistent, with 1000 being an average, not the exception. Other drks know this too, and the damage only increases with better weapons, more str, and higher levels easily averaging over 1200 by endgame with just 100tp. Buffs like souleater and LR are also consistent in adding damage. Whenever the abilities are up, I can pull 1400 without a problem--it's not rare. Blm bursts for just as much damage completely without fear of pulling hate. This combo is instantly able to rend off over 50% of any mob's HP, which is generally an instant kill. Given the proper PT, as soon as a drk/thf gets 100tp, mob dies, and excellent exp all around.

I know very well berserk doesn't pull hate, I'm not a friggin idiot. But when you get a double attack follwed by a critical or two with berserk on, tanks tend to lose hate to me--especialy since I like using my absorbs and stun to full potential. It's about 500-700 damage in less than a minute on top of my borderline hate, so yes--it's easy to pull hate at no fault of your own. The majority of pld's I've pt-ed with are unable to keep hate off me 100%, or even 90% of the fghts. It's more like ~70-80% when I sub war. Yes, they might have sucked, but I have to deal with it and run for cover constantly, as not everyone gets super-plds in every PT. Nin is no question a /thf PT, and since nin tanks are common these days, I have no choice in the matter in many pts.

I never do a SA+TA on the main tank at the begining of a fight. Why bother putting up 170-230 damage while the backup tank just ate 500 damage? Provoke is already worth about 200 damage, so why bother with the mess and delays? Even with a thf main and a nin tank, I rarely see the benefit of the initial mess of SA+TA unless it's with a WS. I'm very glad thf now has the assasin trait to avoid such things, which always hurt exp, not helped. (I don't know how you are getting 100dmg from a SA, I've never gotten damage that low; even with my zwei and sushi.)

Cross reaper is not useless on /thf, I'm constantly getting 800-900 damage, with the odd 600 (maybe 10-20% of the time) from one hit missing, which of course, multiplies on the darkness SC. With war sub it was 300-700, which isn't great, just better than guilltine since it's more consistent and does a lvl3. Souleater buffs it quite well with /thf, hitting 1000-1100 with just a darksteel scythe. I imagine it will be even higher with a deathscythe. I also don't have any real trouble getting TP with a scythe and /thf. It's slower, but not dramatically. /war isn't more accurate, you just get double attack which goes off ~10% of the time.

And virtually no-one, except the desperate ever uses SA+guillotine. It's almost a defining noob misconception that SA works well with it. /thf won't boost it much because there is a very mild, if any damage boost on guillotine, aside from the fact SA only works on one of a WS's hits. Saying /thf sucks for guillotine is like saying a nin sucks at tanking because monk mobs own them. It's blatantly obvious. And then you pair it with a completly suckass tank that can't stand still and decalre that /thf is a bad subjob? Give me a break. Talk about pie-in-the-sky worst case scenario. Completely unrealistic, and not the way to try and convince me to the vailidity of your opinion.

I also PTed in bibiki bay with a smn, rdm, rng, pld and bard with drk/war. But this was specifically because the mobs all conned low IT and VT to me, and as such guillotine was able to net 600-1000 damage constantly, while cross and spinning did the same (so no point in putting up with the lower melee attacks). The pld barely ended up tanking 50% of the time from the sheer amount of damage than the ranger and I were doing. As the only two DDs, it was quite the sight so see chain 5s go by without a problem, and I must say the exp was fantastic.

However, I also tried this combo on processarines, and /war sub ended up doing worse, but not terrible damage comapred to /thf, as my normal hits were lower on IT++, and my WS damage was poor, somtimes completely missing SS and ruining an exp chain, while /thf WS damage was virtually always maximum damage. It continued like that, onto darters, goobers, etc. Fact is that the majority of PTs will find /thf more useful than /war post 66, up until 73+. /war isn't usless, but IMO it's not as useful durring this period, until you end up exping off low IT and VT mobs again.

[Awntawn]

I hate THF sub like the plague... but it's gotta be done.

Parties like consistency, which is something WAR sub doesn't have. WAR sub's WS damage depends largely on criticals and dual swings to do large numbers, and these don't happen all of the time. Sure cross reaper on war sub can do fairly high numbers of up to 800-ish on an IT mob. On the other hand, it can also do 200ish on the low range, which is fairly unpleasant. On THF sub, one hit is a guaranteed high crit, and the chances of the other swing missing are very slim.

Yes, I know THF sub is painful at times; the DPS makes you cringe and it's embarassing to be behind on TP... but you're playing the role as the closer, and at most levels it has to be done for maximum efficiency.

At endgame levels, unfortunately, anything other than manaburn PTs, 3 MNK PTs, and 3 RNG pts are considered insanely inferior in practically every way. No bullshit, if you want to max your merits, level MNK and RNG to 75 and start from there and you'll actually get there faster >.> The fact that the system mechanics allow this to work is one of the reasons why this game is gay

As for non-insane people, at 75 for meritting, hardcore fast-killing of VT is much more efficient than high-number values of steady IT chains... Subbing WAR and spamming multi-hit WSs becomes more efficient again.

There's a time and a place for everything, but I'd still say DRK/THF is the predominant sub for most of the upper pre-endgame level-up parties. Hope this helps.

Oh yeah, and don't take the FAQs too literally; the game's changed a lot since they've been written, and so have many playing styles

[kumaeru]

Originally posted by Awntawn
Oh yeah, and don't take the FAQs too literally; the game's changed a lot since they've been written, and so have many playing styles

Yea it was only written by some old noob drk XD.


Anyways yea 3rng.. aeroburn pts :/ 5 Rng and 1 Brd = rape ~_~;

It's weird though, Light is great but lately I notice I dont hit max Light bonus a lot. When first getting Crossreaper/Spinslash I notice it a lot getting 100% bonus on a 2 man renkei. But now.. :x

Of course it does seem that the lower your WS dmg the easier to get 100% renkei bonus is. can do like 600-700 spinslash and get 600-700 Light easier than the 1000+. But get a 3 man renkei going and Drk closing Light just demolishes the mob (with thf sub).

[Kosy]

Originally posted by fuz
I rarely get only +200 to spinning slash from SA, it goes from 600-700 to 900-1100, and never misses. (Using a mithril heart, btw.) And then there there is the Light SC. Lets see the math.

650 WS + 650 light = 1300 total
1000WS + 1000 light = 2000 total

So there is a 700dmg increase in average WS+SC damage from thf sub, not 200--which is what offsets the low melee damage and slower tp gain, and in some cases (like very high IT) /thf surpasses /war. The damage is very consistent, with 1000 being an average, not the exception. Other drks know this too, and the damage only increases with better weapons, more str, and higher levels easily averaging over 1200 by endgame with just 100tp. Buffs like souleater and LR are also consistent in adding damage. Whenever the abilities are up, I can pull 1400 without a problem--it's not rare. Blm bursts for just as much damage completely without fear of pulling hate. This combo is instantly able to rend off over 50% of any mob's HP, which is generally an instant kill. Given the proper PT, as soon as a drk/thf gets 100tp, mob dies, and excellent exp all around.

Again, this is taken from my experience, but since I have no way of basing your data on (i.e., what race you are, what level you are, what equipment, what are you fighting, etc.) I cannot say that your experience is the norm.

I have *never* gotten over 1k on Spinning Slash even when I choose to land it on the SAM or whoever else (The last time it was the BRD, but that was not my intention and I have no idea wth the BRD was thinking diving in like that ) This is off of either Hobgoblin Alastors or Physicians at 66, if you want a point of reference for this discussion.

Also, you're assuming you have a RNG that will even do Heavy Shot to open up your light. Then make the mob turn on him so that you can trick on to the tank. I know there's other jobs such as MNK or DRG that can open up two way as well. But, from my experience, I have never even seen these job classes on seek (DRG or MNK) and the RNGs I PT with insist that Sidewinder/Slug Shot is the way to go (So we end up doing something lame and I have to use Scythe-Guillotine for that)

Sure, optimal parties are really nice, but when you are in between JP and NA prime time seeking, you have very little to work with. My experience above is from what I went through.

Also, SATA for about 110 or so on opening. You're lying if you say you've done 200 off those hobbies at my level. I have the best a DRK can wear now and I seriously doubt any DRK/THF would be different. Also, I agree that SATA opening is useless on anything but a main THF, but tell that to the 80% of the players I end up in PT with (JP and NA) that seem to think and insist I do so.

I know very well berserk doesn't pull hate, I'm not a friggin idiot. But when you get a double attack follwed by a critical or two with berserk on, tanks tend to lose hate to me--especialy since I like using my absorbs and stun to full potential. It's about 500-700 damage in less than a minute on top of my borderline hate, so yes--it's easy to pull hate at no fault of your own. The majority of pld's I've pt-ed with are unable to keep hate off me 100%, or even 90% of the fghts. It's more like ~70-80% when I sub war. Yes, they might have sucked, but I have to deal with it and run for cover constantly, as not everyone gets super-plds in every PT. Nin is no question a /thf PT, and since nin tanks are common these days, I have no choice in the matter in many pts.

First off, you're assuming that you need to be a super PLD to hold hate. No, you don't. You can hold hate if you have common sense and a bit of knowledge about your job (After 60 plus levels, you better have that kind of intelligence) I have never pulled hate off any tank as /WAR in the opening moments. The only way I could mess hate up is if the PLD was afk, about 15 seconds later, saw that we're fighting an aggro mob and then have to play catch up with hate. As long as I'm not being a complete idiot and use a WS at that moment or decide to go LR and/or SE gungho for no good reason at all. Even with TWO absorbs I'm not going to tip the hate boat and have people go overboard into deep water.

Cross reaper is not useless on /thf, I'm constantly getting 800-900 damage, with the odd 600 (maybe 10-20% of the time) from one hit missing, which of course, multiplies on the darkness SC.

On just 100% TP, I've never even seen it done that much. I've gotten into 800s with 200+% TP though ...

With war sub it was 300-700, which isn't great, just better than guilltine since it's more consistent and does a lvl3. Souleater buffs it quite well with /thf, hitting 1000-1100 with just a darksteel scythe. I imagine it will be even higher with a deathscythe. I also don't have any real trouble getting TP with a scythe and /thf. It's slower, but not dramatically. /war isn't more accurate, you just get double attack which goes off ~10% of the time.

It's not dramatically slower, unless you see that the RNG/MNK/SAM already has double the TP you currently have without even trying. Again /WAR can aggregate TP appreciably more as well as add in good damage. Also DA can go off quite a bit enough that a DRK/WAR would have that much more TP than a DRK/THF in the same time span. Case in point, most whiffs in a row I've gone as DRK/WAR on Tormentors was about 4 or 5 on scythe. On DRK/THF, it was 11 times. WTG I tell you. Maybe there's not a true feeling of accuracy, but I can say that WAR has skills in weapons that DRK can use and THF does not. Hidden bonuses? Who knows ...

And virtually no-one, except the desperate ever uses SA+guillotine. It's almost a defining noob misconception that SA works well with it. /thf won't boost it much because there is a very mild, if any damage boost on guillotine, aside from the fact SA only works on one of a WS's hits. Saying /thf sucks for guillotine is like saying a nin sucks at tanking because monk mobs own them. It's blatantly obvious. And then you pair it with a completly suckass tank that can't stand still and decalre that /thf is a bad subjob? Give me a break. Talk about pie-in-the-sky worst case scenario. Completely unrealistic, and not the way to try and convince me to the vailidity of your opinion.

First off, I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. Maybe you are mixed up with someone else. Please go and read up and figure that yourself.

I also PTed in bibiki bay with a smn, rdm, rng, pld and bard with drk/war. But this was specifically because the mobs all conned low IT and VT to me, and as such guillotine was able to net 600-1000 damage constantly, while cross and spinning did the same (so no point in putting up with the lower melee attacks). The pld barely ended up tanking 50% of the time from the sheer amount of damage than the ranger and I were doing. As the only two DDs, it was quite the sight so see chain 5s go by without a problem, and I must say the exp was fantastic.

However, I also tried this combo on processarines, and /war sub ended up doing worse, but not terrible damage comapred to /thf, as my normal hits were lower on IT++, and my WS damage was poor, somtimes completely missing SS and ruining an exp chain, while /thf WS damage was virtually always maximum damage. It continued like that, onto darters, goobers, etc. Fact is that the majority of PTs will find /thf more useful than /war post 66, up until 73+. /war isn't usless, but IMO it's not as useful durring this period, until you end up exping off low IT and VT mobs again. [/B]

First off, at 66, you shouldn't really be doing Processionaires, because the exp is just flat out dead (we're talking base low 100s for exp and you're lucky to get anything higher than anywhere else even on C5) Also, most things in the Tree are weak against Darkness, and that's a fact. If you go back to my point about weapons and their pairing on combinations, you'll see then that DRK/WAR > DRK/THF in the Tree. And I've done both and from what I know, DRK/WAR > DRK/THF. Again, your experience and mine will obviously never line up unless we have the same duplicate circumstances and environment.

[kumaeru]

Kos.. thats weird :x

When I first got crossreaper:

on Procs. I got 800-1000+ easily and same on the Darters. with 100% with Thf sub and SATA.. well.. just SA ~_~;



As for who to land SATA on in exp PT's, in Rng, Drk PT's the Rng better do Arching Arrow or he's a complete moron. However if the PT setup is Rng, Rng, Drk then Drk solo WS while Rngx2 slug's. Could probably one hell of a pt.. Rng, Rng, Drk, Brd, Rdm, Nin or Pld.


Anyways there is no shame in SATA'ing on a Rng. If Rng can turn it fine do it on the tank. however if not SATA on Rng. At those lvls after renkei mobs dont last very long. This should also be why Drk's (or Thf for that matter) shouldnt just stand behind a person expecting it to turn. Best position would be in the middle, and wait to see which way it turns. run to the right position if it does/doesnt turn and complete the renkei.

personally... SATA at the begining of the fight = redundant. Sure you get a critical hit, it has no real difference in hate. Even pop on an Aeigishalmer and warwolfs and do a normal SATA.. very little difference.


TBH my first chain 6 PT was in Boyahda tree with Rantaro 'Super JP Thf' (Don't care how hard snickers tries XDXD). On darters, renkei called for me to use Crossreaper to renkei with Pld while 2nd renkei was with a Rng and Thf Sidewinder > Dancing Edge. Getting constant chain 6 doing 800-1.2kish Crossreapers and added darkness bonus which went up to 100%.


I do find it hard to believe though that war sub on procs would do worse. Guillotine already does amazing damage on procs. Combined with War sub it only gets better. Granted you might not be doing a good renkei, get a War or a Rng to help.. Do Fragmentation and you should be laughing. Guillotine > Raging Rush or Guillotine > Sidewinder is one of the best renkei combos at that level.

First time I did Spinslash in Boyahda was on Steelshells.. blew me away with 1.3k dmg and around 900 Light bonus. Was very happy XD after skilling up gsword so damn long :/

War, Rng, and Mnk are good renkei partners for Drk. Mnk is for the 3 man renkei which is usually in KRT only :x.

[fuz]

I don't know how other drk/wars deal with hate but all it takes for me to pull hate is 2 absorbs from the start, maybe a hit. And that's it--I'll get hate 50% of the time, like a monk starting a fight with a boosted chi-blast. It pulls hate about 80% of the time with a ninja. I usually do the pulling, so I do have a headstart on hate. With nin, I assist with utsusemi casting with stun, which just makes it even more easy to pull hate. On a side note, I don't usually cast absorbs with /thf since TP > everything except stun.

And yes like kumeru said, if a ranger refuses to do arching/slug when we're fighting ITs, he's a moron--since I'm unable to reach my maximum potential, the ranger has to be able to cover up all the damage that I'm not doing, which usually isn't possible. Result is slower exp, while the rng can gloat over his damage output. It also leaves the blm completely upset. I've pt-ed with monk, war, drg, rng, and sam, never any arrogant rangers that only go for misswinder. Contrary to what you say, everyone in my PTs so far go for the lvl3 SC above all else, and not settle for WS spamming--until after cautious testing it proves to be more effective. Everyone has been flexible with using WS to allow me to SA+TA+WS to close a lvl3 chain. I've actually rarely touched guillotine at all since getting cross and spinning.

Between jp and en seek times, I've not had much work to do since I get invites usually within a few hours, if not I continue fishing. Oddly enough sometimes I get invites blind, even though drk invites are supposed to be bad (watch me jinx myself). I've also had a semi-static for nearly all of my drk's levels, so my PT experience has been varied, yet constant. I'm able to experiment a lot since friends are infinitely more forgiving than a random pickup PT. All of these PTs have been well balanced, except for a few odd ones with dual ninjas or all support jobs with just me and a rng for damage. But I'll try just about anything once to see how it's like.

I have never gotten a ~100ish damage on a SA. Even on zwei, it would round 120-170 with gear swaps. Then again, maybe I don't target high IT normally. My regular hits range from 40-90 with thf sub, about 50% higher with war sub and berserk. The higher damage figure of 170+ is from scythe. That's the only weapon I could figure that makes a SA+TA at the begining of a fight worth considering. As I've found out, it still does not justify the extra time and cures spent.

The TP difference between war sub and thf for me has never been very pronounced. If my SC partner is the same level as I am, He is normally 130-170% by the time I hit 100%, although sometimes with less well-equipped partners, I can keep pace or even exceed them. With war sub, I'm still behind other xxx/war with similar equipment at the same level, so the difference to me isn't anything huge; except the odd multi-double attack, which also works the other way around--no double attacks for a fight. I honestly do not believe that /war gives you a hidden bonus of more accuracy or melee proficiency. I think you're showing classic signs of the placebo effect.

Since I am the closer, the other melee usually has a free hit or two before I empty my TP, so naturally they should be ahead. Then again, I play dirty since I pull with my weapon out so I can get my first hit off faster. :p

Ranger can pull TP much faster than I, but normally they don't like tanking, so they don't unless they use barrage. They also need a little extra to keep up accuracy. Sam doesn't gain TP at a ridiculous rate without meditate, which they have to use anyway to boost damage output. Sam isn't very lvl 3 compatible with drk so I tend not to invite them till 71+ anyhow. Drg is my normal SC partner, they don't gain TP quite as fast, but I've never caught up to one. More important, drg deals quite a lot more damage than sam. Monks for some reason, haven't been able to edge me in TP very well. Maybe the martial passives lower TP gain as they lower delay, who knows. Could be poorly equipped since I don't check people--have to work with them anyway, and it doesn't make them play better so I don't bother with it. However, what they hit for with one fist, I do with a whole greatsword swing, which makes me cringe. Wars do a bit better, mostly due to aggressor and double attack which make the job less equipment dependent to gain TP. I don't PT with thieves anymore. Incompatible in WS and I don't like how they do damage. They gain TP like war the last I checked.

And you did say that guillotine sucked with thf sub. Which to me, was a non-sequitr.

Maybe subbing THF makes you miss on WS since I've had this happen with Guillotine too (Like landing only one of 4 hits) with THF and not WAR sub ...

And pair it with this.

There were times when the PLD moved when I used TA+SL (SA is useless when mob is faced at you) and SL missed. Completely. This happened quite a bit with other circumstances too...

And make swipes that thf sub is inferior in general, which it is not. It just happens for many obvious reasons that you all listed, it didn't work in that circumstance which does not show the whole picture--just the one you want to see of /thf.

As for exp-ing on processarines, I did that with cross reaper and /thf. Moved on to other tree mobs as I got spinning. Once again, playing me up as an idiot when I mentioned several mobs I exp-ed on in my last post.

[truong]

I covered this topic over a year ago when retards were raving about the concept of DoT. Go DRK/WAR if you want to be WAR/NIN, SAM/THF, MNK/WAR's bitch. Go DRK/THF if you want to take the job to maximum potential and actually OUT damage those melees in exp pt. DRK/THF's damage on demand > DRK/WAR's shitty damage over time. Wait til 74, then you can go back to DRK/WAR when damn near everything's low VT, at which point it's just better to spam WS and kill shit fast.