Is it me or is there DRK hate in the community?

[Drogen_Shomuro]

I agree with Izual. The reason why I feel the melee DD classes are balanced is because of the way a PT functions as a whole. Even though rng may have more pure DoT than any other jobs, all of the other jobs are essential to allow a PT to function more effiently by managing hate and skillchaining.

That being said, I'll continue my friendly debate with Langolier. (Sorry for taking so long to reply, I took a mini vacation to Cali to visit Magic Mountain =p)

Originally posted by Langolier
Yeah, but only if you don't have enough RNG's or BLM's to go around. SC's is how we lowly melee survive. I truly am thankful that I can be useful there... for a while.

What do you mean "if you don't have enough RNG or BLM to go around?" Skillchains are the reason why other melee are just as useful as rangers, regardless of how many Blms or Rngs exist.

You can SC HNM's... but it will take you a while to get TP, and you won't do shit for damage outside that SC. RNG will do good damage with attacks, and they can SC too...

You don't have to build TP on the HNM. Most HNM fights require outside PTs anyway to clear mobs. Why not build TP on these and SC on the HNM? And rangers by themselves cannot skillchain effectively. Using their best WS, they can only do Reverberation.

Hm... now let's see. RNG will beat just about any melee with attacks. DRK, WAR, and SAM may be able to beat RNG with weapon skill damage, but it will take DRK and WAR so long to get TP that it won't be worth it. Also, outside of that WS their damage will be crap. RNG WS will still be fine.

We've already established that rng will usually do more damage solo compared to any other melee. My point was that when working in teams, other melee can create a synergy that rngs can't, and this is why I believe Rngs are on equal ground with other melees.

I guess DRK can stun... BLM can stun too though, and they can do way more damage.

A Blm can't pass his hate to someone else with /thf. Blms require MP, which is not infinite. Blms are also of a completely different class, so you can't really compare them to a drk. Besides, no matter how effective a Blm is, he or she will be even more effective if he can MB on a Skillchain.

I was talking about their bolts. Acid bolts do make a difference. A hell of a lot more of a difference than my Absorbs. Or my sleeps, or my poisons. I suppose you could count Stun as enfeebling. Stun is one of DRK's few saving graces.

I'm not too convinced about the effectiveness of acid bolts, but regardless, I don't think being able to lower a mobs def alone qualifys rng to be a better enfeebler. As for your comment about Stun, it's one of the reasons a drk is irreplaceable. And if you want to compare drks to blms, that's a different topic.

They don't need to save up lots of TP now that they get Sushi. They land their WS's just fine. As I said, in a standard party, my DRK/THF may outdamage the RNG when we SC, but if he got rid of me (and the other melee) and got more RNG, he'd get way more EXP.

Maybe, maybe not. It's not about you outdamaging the rng on the SC, it's the fact that by SCing, the blm gets to do more damage, and the skillchain closer gets to do more damage. If you have a good rdm or whm, they can MB too. It's also the fact that he can unleash as much hate as he wants, and you can pin hate back to the tank with the WS.

RNG can ride the hate barrier better. They can pull hate and survive longer than I can. One double attack can damn near kill me. It won't even get beyond the RNG's shadows. It's my opinion that nerfing Utsusemi when subbed, might solve the problem. When I stated this out-loud though the flames never stopped... of-course no-one ever offered a good counter-argument either.

You didn't take into account the fact that you can pass hate by using TA. Not only does this save your ass, but it saves anyone else's ass who happens to get hate. A rng can save himself with utsusemi, but he can't save the blm or whm with it.

Yes I am. It makes them more versatile. DRK by itself is crap. RNG by itself will still do nice damage. It's enhanced by a SJ. DRK is made into a job with a SJ. RNG versatility allows them to sub NIN and still do high damage.

I don't understand how a rng's versatillity ALLOWS them to sub nin. By definition, versatillity implies that you can change to meet the needs of different situations. Show me why a rng/thf or a rng/whm or a rng/drk is useful. Rangers sub nin because subbing any other job doesn't provide much more functionality. I guess drk's don't get a whole lot more options than a rng, but subbing war, sam, or thf is somewhat more benefial to a drk than a rng. I had an discussion with(against) a friend who claimed drk/nin using axes was awesome, because the critical component of Rampage + Souleater pretty much raped all the mobs to death.

Arrowburn parties prove that SC's are only nice when you don't have RNG's. Seriously, if we got rid of the melee DD's, everyone would have an easier time playing the game. There would only be a few small places in the game that would be difficult.

I still say that Skillchains will exceed the solo power of a rng. In PTs it's less noticeable because you're limited to a group of 6, but in alliance level situations, 2 DD performing a light SC to open up a Thundaga III MB for 4 blms, while preventing any one blm from getting hate thanks to the 1k SATA WS... will do better than rng_01 + rng_02 doing reverb or something, forcing the blms to hold back because of the lack of hate on the tank.

[QUOTE]I don't know... Raging Rush --> Raging Rush is pretty good I hear... and WAR/anything will do more damage than DRK/WAR. Perhaps they're even if the DRK manages to pop Souleater for the full durration every time it's ready. He'd be eating lots of MP though.[QUOTE]That's only for Fragmentation. Wars can't replace Spinning Slash for Light, and most Wars prefer to use dual axes anyway. I'd take a Decimation > Spinning Slash SC over Raging Rush > Raging Rush. And, a drk's combat damage is exactly the same as war using a GAxe.

Such as? Those certain situations, if they exist, make up about 1% of the game.

What I've observered about Souleater + SA + Spinning Slash is that it does consistant damage regardless of the mob's def. This is because SA guarantees that the entirety of the one-hit Spinning Slash will penetrate as a critical, and Souleater will add a guaranteed 10% of your HP. Even Shark Bite will do crappy damage on high def mobs because it doesn't have Souleater to push it through. Dragon Kick is two-hits, so not only does it get crippled by high def mobs, but high eva mobs as well, since even SA will only guarantee the first hit. So, anytime you want a strong, consistant closer for Light, drk is the best way to go.

People aren't that stupid. They hear RNG is better... they then observe RNG, and see that it seems to be better. The stereotypes about RNG being better than other DD's didn't pop out of thin air. It's true. It's based on fact. They don't concieve that RNG is more effective, it is more effective 90% of the time.

This is the same stigma that made people conceive that drk's were the kings of damage, when they unleashed their Berserk + Souleater + Last Resort + Guillotine for 351251 damage. Back then, most people were fixated on "the big numbers" and now, everyone's fixated on raw damage, without looking at the big picture of how a group funtions as a whole.

That's not a fair argument. What evidence aside from oppinion is there that Coke is better? There is factual evidence and data that RNG is better.

You can assess with class is 'better' by observing how much faster they make the EXP come in, or how much faster they kill the HNM.

To assess that, you need to test every single job combination and take into account where this job combination can level effectively, or what situations this job combination will be the most efficient. Very little real experimentation goes on, because people aren't willing to risk a few hours of their time to see if this combination is feasible.

Once, I was invited to an xp PT that consisted of rdm, smn, pld, drg(/thf), drk(/thf), sam. The drk didn't even have a GS. Against all odds, we raked in 5k an hour killing the higher level gobs in Bibiki, at lvl 67. We were able to do this because of our massive skillchain damage, which consisted of 2 chains, Guillotine > Gekko > Wheeling Thrust, and Swift Blade > Gekko. Both the rdm and smn would MB, which was pretty impressive... 500 Meteorite and a 300 Fire (?) on Light. (I wish that drk had Spinning Slash, because he probably could have closed Gekko > Wheeling Thrust > Spinning Slash for alot more damage.) It may not be as good as an arrowburn PT, but at least no one ever came close to dying.

[fuz]

I'm whinny, but I'm not asking to be the best at anything. I'm just highly questioning whether drk is, as some people say--a perfect equal to other jobs in a similar number of situations. To which I have obviously expressed in my opinion, no.

I'm still unconvinced that despite slamming down 500-1000 dmg on HNMs, that my gsword attack which drops as low as a single hit from a monk, shows my damage is sufficient, or even good. In exp PTs everything is all fine and dandy with my parser swinging either direction (good and bad), but as things ramp up, I can't see how my WS, once every 3-5 min is actually equivalent to others. Obviously, no melee is really used for general damage these days, so war sub is rare.

So, is the total value of drk, not just the damage--really an equivalent to other jobs? It seems in every situation, I'm the lowest on the roster of PT leaders.

I'm also left wondering why our absorbs seem so lacking, since they constitute a good portion of our magical ability. I haven't had a chance to lay my hands on the new JSE, but suffice to say, I can't tell if they make any inroads to killing faster as the absorbed/drained stat rarely constitues a humanly visible difference. Not that I can tell if there's a difference in the parsed log either. It's definetly a potential that is (at least for me) completely locked and unrealized. Could be the answer to providing decent spport for kited mobs, who knows.

On a slightly different note maybe SE can offer a new trait that lets us hit for 1 dmg min instead of 0, but can still miss...

[kuu]

There also seems to be people overestimating utsusemi:ichi on rangers..

Ni I can understand, somewhat, as the cast time under a normal monster's 1 round makes a big difference,

but ichi...

Ichi is also much too slow, You're lucky if you can put up 6 shadows as a ranger.

Besides that their are basic utsusemi problems after change, WS go through, multiple shadow take down, AoE, etc. Your shadow goes down very fast, espeically late in the game. If you Pull, you're in big trouble with recast at times.

Now there are Ranger problem specifically. Range attack has a RELOAD time. you can not do anything for 2-3 seconds after each attack.

That means no utsusemi either. If you're caught in a Rattack animation, and it turns to you, you're screwed. Depending on double attack,ws, how long you were in your range animation.

Play a ranger for a while...Utsusemi is a good safety net, but it's also quite thin.

A drk, could at least chuck stun, if he see movement, Though after SATA, they rarely get hate.

[fuz]

I've not had major trouble tanking as war/nin with only ichi, same with nin pre 37. Taking the first 5-6 hits with no damage is pretty easy, after that is a different question.

And a mob won't turn on you in the middle of an attack, unless somone else has shed hate somehow. Pulling on the bow without releasing an arrow doesn't produce hate. After a ranged attack you are stunned for a little while, but that's why you keep up 3 shadows with a pre-cast utsusemi. Unless you take a pair of double attacks or a special, it'll last till you can recast.

It's still much better than my drk/thf which eats dirt in 3-5 hits. A rng's def might be worthless, but most rng can take a hit or two (unless taru) on top of utsusemi def. There is also the benefit of utsusemi taking high damage criticals just like any other attack with 1 shadow. The total damage avoided before reaching death, is quite a bit higher than the medium-ish def a drk can swap gear for. Not sure if single target WS go through, haven't been to balista in awhile.

The last thing a drk wants to do is cast stun on a mob that's hitting him--it's as much hate as flash, something like a 2/3 provoke. When it happens (fairly often when I sub war) I have to turn around to stop hitting until the tank picks it up again. Exception is of course, when the mob is near death, or the tank is near dead. Weapon bash is also a nice tool that rarely stuns, but pulls plenty of hate...

[Kosy]

Originally posted by fuz
I've not had major trouble tanking as war/nin with only ichi, same with nin pre 37. Taking the first 5-6 hits with no damage is pretty easy, after that is a different question.

I agree with you. I have friends who can tank as WAR/NIN even at 60. They are complimented for their ability to do a decent job. It's not optimal like NIN/WAR, but believe this, I've partied with quite a bunch of NIN/WAR who did way worse than WAR/NIN even at low 60s.

It's not your tools. It's how you can play.

[hartless]

Re: Is it me or is there DRK hate in the community?

that true as a drk my self i only had scythe lvl til 65 i stopped lvling n whent crazy skillin up i bought lvl 33 scythe n skilled up till spinning slash evenr since bot hr caped n every 1 is happy )

and ice is right some reason some drk's give the good drk's a hard time getting pts cause
people pt with bad drk's n think there all the same when i pt i make my own pt's and as

i go n play my best people now ask if im making a pt n if i do that will join u just like 1 time i was i na pt wich they needed me to sub war but didnt have it lvl its at 30 still lol

n they had ask me how am i going ot get hate for thf to SATA of ninja i told em i use stun
when i pt with thf n me with thf sub to get hate they didnt belive me till they saw it n sayd

i never tho drks can get hate like that of stun ever since then no one question my sub in a thf's pt now i m 72 n even jp ask me to pt when be4 i never had a jp ask me for pt be4

i just hope does new drk's do it right from start for a better future as drk n make sure ya have ALOT n i mean ALOT of gill lata on i ngame cause ur neeed it for items drk have to have ya will find out what im talking about as u lvl 59+.