Is it me or is there DRK hate in the community?

[kuu]

Parsing the numbers isn't what it's all about, because individual parties are always limited by the weakest link. A lot of people say "wow, I did as much damage as the ranger", but the fact is, most of the time a ranger has to hold back to maintain the party flow. Such is the nature of the job. Look at the devastation a RNG/WAR can wreak - but look fast, before he gets pounded into hamburger.

You're going around in circles.. first you talk about real life numbers, now you do a 180 and talk about theorical numbers.

For the record, There is not much holding back hate pre 55. Just think on my comment. If my war is out hating, and damaging my ranger counterpart, why would he hold back hate? Besides fact I know the ranger, and his DD is definitely on the peak condition.

In another thread we can throw around arugements and coutner arguements on what makes a ranger tick, but this is a drk thread. So i'll just reitterate my feelings that a ranger don't go above and beyond every other DD.

It's crown and glory is the sidewinder -> arching days. And most jobs have some of those

[kumaeru]

Well.. instead of thinking pre ** lvl. Lets go from lvl 75.

Almost all of us are at 75, and can relate the differences/hardships. Almost every lvl 75 drk should know or will come to know that Drk is a dead end job.

1 Drk in LS imo is not enough, 2 active drks is fine. Having 4-5 active rng is also fine. An LS that is having 10RNG is stupid and desperate. You also have a lot more mouths to feed in terms of items :p. After all Alliance has 18 people. And even if a Rng dies, raise them and they can get back into fighting while weakend. There is no "swaping" in and out rng. So you will get the Rng/Melee PT (on big fights will have a Brd and only rng pt), a Mage PT for Blms/stunner and refresher, and a Tank PT.. for... tanking.


Rng is superior and unballanced compared to other melee. Aeroburn PT's rip appart everything.

Drks do have access to Crimson Pants, however we take too much dmg to warrant kiting for long periods of time.


Rng are good in even small HNM fights because of the fact that they can tank these when they take hate. So they wont need to hold back. The very first HNM I ever killed was Roc. was only 5 of us and 2 Rng (one who quit the game a while ago Jujube). You see.. Rng also have tanking gear for when they need to tank by taking hate. The 2 Rng would tank roc easily and be the ones doing the damage also.

I have a 75 Drk taru, and have been playing a 72+ hume Rng, and aeroburn pt's just show how unballanced Rng is.

[Kosy]

Originally posted by Icemage
DRK usually fall to the bottom of my invite list for several reasons:

(1) Really really REALLY awful experiences with DRKs who haven't levelled both scythe and greatsword. It's like magic, every time I invite a DRK for Vorpal Scythe, they only have great sword levelled... and if I invite them for Spinning Slash, they only have Scythe levelled. Maddening. Less than 1 in 3 DRKs I've partied with have had both weapons within reasonable level range for use in a skillchain.

Yah, this is inexcusable. I took the time at @60 to stop leveling in order to get weapons capped (I even have 1hd sword almost capped for level 64) and get my gear straightened out (Haubu and 2x Sniper's)

(2) Amazingly few DRKs who know jack about what to do with the spells at their disposal. I've had numerous DRKs ask me for Ballad - even mid-battle(!)... when we were fighting Beetles or Crabs which they could easily just have Aspired. Or the ones that sling every spell in their spell list as fast as they can then yell at the red mage to Refresh... or the ones who won't Stun a monster even after it's beating the black mage into hamburger

Spells will be resisted quite a bit by IT monsters. Ask any mages about this. Even BLMs MBs can get resisted, so you should know better than to use this point alone in your arguments. However, a DRK that does not use stun in certain situations is a bad DRK. How many times had I have to break away from a skillchain just to stun a Hobgoblin to prevent massive chaos? Quite a number of times, but it was party first over trying to do whatever I was trying to do ...

(3) Even fewer DRKs I've partied with have a clue about how to control their hate management and JAs. If I never see another Soul Eater / Berserk / Last Resort WS, it'll be way too soon. And any DRK who leaves his Souleater up to whittle away his HP even after his HPs go red without turning it off is most likely never going to get another invite from me.

LOL that has never happened to me. I also never stack SE with Guillotine as I see too many DRKs do this (They claim that they turn if off immediately but they leave it on anyway) What I've experienced is this:

Guillotine (normal) + 8 good swings with SE > SE + Guillotine. You also lose about the same amt of HP and also gives a chance for the mage to use Cure III + Regen II on you instead of Cure IV or V which quickly depletes the mana pool.

DRK is a surprisingly complex job, certainly more than most people give it credit for, and rarely do I ever see it played to its potential. At least with a monk, I know what I'm getting when I invite. That's not the case with a DRK, unless I play 20 questions before I send the invitation.

LOL, suffice to say, about 80% of all DRKs past level 60 = crap and I don't care if they're Rank 10 or Rank 2 (Yes, I've seen Rank 2 players level 66+ on my /sea lists >.> Esp with Chinese sounding names) (Gil Seller)(Do you need it?)

On my macro, I swap in +INT rings on every absorb. I gain a 10-fold increase in success of landing the spell coupled with the +5 to the skill I get from my AF Helm.

I also have macros which swap in various rings for various WSs. Elemental ones, like Shadow of Death get the INT+ treatment while my Sickle Moon gets the +STR. I even carry +VIT in case I get some heat. You'd be surprise how quickly I run out of inventory space (50 slots = not much)

EDIT: Note that nowhere do I mention gear. I don't care whether a DRK has snipers, hauberk, or any of that fancy stuff. It's cool, but it's not necessary for XP purposes. What irritates me is the rarity of people playing the job who understand it and learn how to best make use of its abilities.

Icemage

You're actually wrong on that. Skills + EQ = a good DRK. Missing one half of that equation is asking for some half-assed action. Take the time to get the stuff rather than cotinually level and make yourself look bad. Took me this long to get to 65 (I played from Oct 2003) but I have good reputation now.

/cheer

[Anakron]

Originally posted by kuu
Drks out damage rangers on crabs where peirce damage reduction soaks up and mnks do even better if I remember right. Beetles I believe drks should also be able to outdamage.

Crabs do not have any specific type of damage reduction properties. They're simply Paladin-type monsters that get Defense Bonus traits every 10 or 20 levels.

And also saying that your WAR/NIN can outdamage RNGs doesn't really prove anything, except that perhaps you are a very good WAR/NIN and those RNGs weren't the very best ones. I'm sure there are more RNG/NINs outdamaging WAR/NINs than there are WAR/NINs outdamage RNG/NINs. I don't have any proof of course, but I don't think this is something that many people will debate.

As for parse results about DRK/WAR or WAR/NIN or whatever outdamaging RNGs, I'm sure they're out there. However, one must keep in mind that people are more likely to post results where they ("they" as in melees) outdamage RNGs than they are to post results where a RNG outdamaged them, because the latter is nothing special. Similarly, very few RNGs will post results that show that they outdamaged every other party member, because it's nothing special either. My point is that the results that people post are not representative of what happens in a general party.

[fuz]

Crabs are funny things. Rng actually does very well on them (crabs hit slow so rng can actually tank them for a short time) since ranged attacks don't loose much damage. Monks do terribly on crabs, since the crab's high def soaks up all of a mnks modest attack number. They are easy to hit so most melee like them. :3

Drk provides slightly better or similar exp on crabs than other melees, but not as good as rng. It's mostly because drk can use spells freely on crabs as they rarely resist them, and chain distortion easily at these levels. Crabs even have MP to aspir--but they don't cast any spells which is funny. Also high damage weapons and attack bonuses mean drk damage doesn't drop as much as other melees (rng damage doesn't seem to drop at all) when a crab buffs up--even then souleater will ignore def if you need to kill a crab quick.

[Kosy]

Originally posted by Anakron
Similarly, very few RNGs will post results that show that they outdamaged every other party member, because it's nothing special either. My point is that the results that people post are not representative of what happens in a general party.

It depends on the time and circumstances for everything. I know of an overzealous DRK on another forum demanding screenies of Spinning Slash breaking 1k in order to prove something on another forum at the same time calling up RNGs to prove their claims on dmg. That to me is stupid and evidence that the player is insecure with his/her own abilities as a player and also as a person.

Up from level 60 to 65 now, I've partied with no less than a dozen RNGs and that's saying a lot (due to the fact that they constituted about 70% of my PT experience) And because the last two levels (63 to 65), parties that had 2x RNGs (Two sessions) gave me about 70% of the total exp during that time and gave me insights on how they work.

Now, I'm not going to say that 2x RNGs are the norm for me (It isn't and I was just very fortunate that no BLM was on seek at the time that I partied with them) nor will I say that they make the best parties (Even if it did for me, I can't guarantee this for other people) It's just from my observations that I came up with a couple of comments:

1) RNGs are good, consistent damage dealers when they don't miss This is so important that most people don't realize this at all. You only hear talk about Mr./Ms. Y doing X amount of damage for Z amount of exp on chain #Q, but rarely do you actually hear people talk about what happens when things don't go the way you thought it should ...

2) Not all RNGs are good. I will venture to say that this is the same for any player, regardless if they're EN or JP. I've partied with one helluva fantastic RNG who was an NA player and a first main job and I have partied with craptastic JP RNGs for whom this is their 3rd or 4th main job and are currently in infamous HNM LSs on the server. Don't think that when you pick up a RNG, you'll automatically get fantastic 8k exp/hr. That's not going to happen and I'm willing to bet that there's only a 30% chance of that happening.

3) Not all DRKs are bad. However, even a few bad ones who bounce around many parties in a given week and ruin chances for other DRKs at similar levels to gain a PT invite for a whole month, it's something that is almost impossible to convince many other players. "Why do we need a DRK? We can get two RNGs now," is usually the sentiments echoed by everyone who isn't a melee or specifically not a DRK.

Last night, I was in a SMN RDM DRK RNG RNG PLD party. Now given that there were no BLMs, we opted to get a 2nd RNG in the PT. I'm sure if the PLD was making the PT, I'd have been passed up for a 2nd RDM, but whatever (which reminded me just now about how a PLD told me last night she was in a JP PT of 3x RDM simply because they refused to pick up a melee who wasn't a RNG or a mage who wasn't a BLM ~ typical ignorance that runs rampant even among JP players)

The JP RNGs had probably thought I was (a) The typical DRK who is subbing THF at these levels and (b) probably can't keep up with TP at all.

What I went to prove to them last night:

(a) WAR sub kept me on track TP wise (I'm not saying I got to 100% at the same time they did -- I'm saying that when I got 100%, they weren't ready to use their WSs either since they weren't comfortable using it at just 100% TP ~ RNGs should know what I mean)

(b) My Abs did not get resisted once by the Processionaires who all con IT and could kick my butt in 3 hits given any opportunity to tank them - so no, they weren't exactly weak either. I was 50% with Darters on Abs at level 64 and about 70% at level 65.

(c) I kept toe to toe damage-wise (Add the "per hit" and the WSs -- not just the WSs alone)

After only about 10 min (The time it took to destroy 6 Processionaires ending on #5 256), they wanted me to chain with them (They wouldn't even acknowledge I existed before that) Slug Shot > Guillotine > Slug Shot ... well, soon after, the next 6 Processionaires (we were the only ones at the Pond during this time so we could just pull whatever, whenever) went down in about 6-7 min. 2,200 to 2,500 on each chain with the damage going to them a bit more (10%) but not even much more. My DPS was way more with Double Attack criticals doing more than 3 or 4 of their holy bolts combined. In the end, I say the did more, but not this mind-numbing blowout I was expecting.

Keep in mind that I consider these RNGs to be fairly well equipped (Of course, not ridiculously Gil Buyer equipped) and one the first hour, before three JP parties came and camped on us, we got about 7k exp. That's not an optimal NIN RNG RNG RNG BRD BLM setup, but w/e. That to me is still great exp by any measure, no matter what your experience with this game is.

Bottom line ... there is no one better player than all the others. It's teamwork in the end, yet people who are incredibly ignorant will continually be blind in their discrimination and at the end, I believe those people end up having less enjoyment out of this game than the average Vana'Diel player ...

[Jei]

7k is good. I lead my PT as Rdm with Blm Whm Pld Drk Mnk getting around 7.5k/hour killing skeletons in Gustav too. Drk/Thf, very powerful chain closer (we did distortion double dragon > cross reaper i think?)

I've PTed a lot with a PLD+Drk set up. But still if I do a search I will almost always see 3-4 other Drks. It's quite unfair when a good PT set up can only support 1 Drk but can support many many rangers. ... People get excited and happy when they see a lot of rangers in their group but I doubt you'll feel the same if you see 4 Drks in your group.

[kuu]

And also saying that your WAR/NIN can outdamage RNGs doesn't really prove anything, except that perhaps you are a very good WAR/NIN and those RNGs weren't the very best ones. I'm sure there are more RNG/NINs outdamaging WAR/NINs than there are WAR/NINs outdamage RNG/NINs. I don't have any proof of course, but I don't think this is something that many people will debate.

I knew someone was going to pull out the skill question. Naysays will always split hairs. It's kinda pointless if you want to stand by the "it's not the best xx you'll see". Cause there's no way to prove that short of standing besides a pt for 3hours.

Most people just remember the omfg sidewinder for 700-1k while your vorpal or whatever does 300.

What they don't remember is the before sidewinder, they do a crappy 100-200 flame shot like everyone else, and mostly 100-300 barrage. regular shots around 50-100. My war would beat that simply doing 80-150 a round(double attack), and 100-200 raging.

Similarly a drk would do 80-100, himself with WC for 150-200, and depending on sub.

Thfs do about 40 per round SATA for 120s and viper for 400.

Twist your memory a bit and remember non sidewinder days, they're nothing special except on flying.

And crabs to have modifier on pierce. Tested this expensively. Rangers can get around this by using stat bolts/arrows. And maybe gun, hard to tell.

Rangers aren't great pre sidewinder, just that simple. Post sidewinder, things get tricky due to specialization.

[kumaeru]

Why focus on pre55? focus on lvl 75 when all job have access to everything. Then compare the differences.

Really I could care less that your sidewinder did 3times more dmg than my Vorpal scythe which is the closest Drk WS to Sidewinder's lvl... or wait.... Guillotine has the same difference of lvl. And works just as great.

Yes it's true that drk only have 3 and at times 4 good scythe WS. Slice > Guillotine > Crossreaper mainly and only at 300%TP Spiral Hell. Did people forget how awsome drk's were with 50% TP return? Or are people too new to not even remember those days.


The fact is dmg wise yes Rng are better in that they can deal more consistant dmg on different mobs. And their overall damage is more than drk.

The problem with the difference between Drk and Rng is the fact that Rng can get much more TP in a shorter amount of time.


I am almost sure that this discussion would be completely different or not even here, if Drks still got 50% TP return from 4 hit Guillotine without sam subs.

Many could care less how great Rng is pre sidewinder. The fact is Rng are very overpowered at 75, compared to other jobs.

[Awntawn]

Originally posted by kumaeru
Many could care less how great Rng is pre sidewinder. The fact is Rng are very overpowered at 75, compared to other jobs.

Except that they're next to useless on the CoP wyrms :D

[Icemage]

Originally posted by kumaeru
Many could care less how great Rng is pre sidewinder. The fact is Rng are very overpowered at 75, compared to other jobs.

Precisely.


Icemage

[fuz]

Hands up to that. Smn and bst are usually recruited to kill them in the fights I've been to though. At least there aren't as many of them so there are some melee spots left. >.>

Glad to see Awntawn still around. I looked up to him so much when I was a noob lol. Good job guides were virtually non-existant back then.

I've been playing for quite some time, back when the level cap was still 65, snipers were not even 200k, vassago's was 70k, and stun didn't exist. I got guillotine about a week before the tp nerf hit. T_T Was so friggin fun spamming WS with a war going RR.

Oh yes, there was a recent nerf to ranged weapon TP gain, so melees sometimes keep up with a ranger provided they have enough accuracy. Which I should restate--even if a rng only hits as hard as a melee, they are normally much more accurate. They also have the rapid shot trait which randomly makes a ranged attack near instant cast, which unlike various haste passives (e.g. martial arts, dual wield), does not affect TP gain.

[kuu]

Oh yes, there was a recent nerf to ranged weapon TP gain, so melees sometimes keep up with a ranger provided they have enough accuracy.

Depends on the build of melees.

The new food has given us a somewhat world shaking job changing without actually changing the job themselves.

There is a rush to go the new str build. Like comments of +45 str, and every giant bracelet being raised and sold out.

Why? because equipement acc is old news, at least in transition.

Before it was all about the 45+ acc or you hit crap. Of course ranger had but loads of RACC equipment. Now there is a magical food that gives major amounts of acc.

Well it's upto the individual players to find the right balance of it. But rangers relatively unchanged by new food changed, while melees are finding rapid growth in areas.

My last pt with a Drg had some pretty sick power. 150 per hit, almost every hit, and that freaking lance is 16tp per swing, with extra tp after jump with barone. And since this was a weeny tiger/cocktrice at kufkal, his pet was out doing 50.

So you got a drg doing 200 per round with a 18 tp gain. Not bad for the assumed lowest rank of melee.

[kumaeru]

Originally posted by Awntawn
Except that they're next to useless on the CoP wyrms :D

damn straight


Drks getting giant bracelets like Alkyoneous isnt a new thing. Drk's have always wanted alkys since before Sole Sushi. War's never needed as much accuracy as Drk in the first place so they should have been looking to them also. The most common reason for melee to not like Alkyoneous bracelets is the -6 Dex. But with release of Warwolf belt which most melee's are already using, canceling the negative affects of Alkys is easy.

Drgs do have good dmg per swing and are great DD's. Problem is their best WS is still Pentathrust. It also costs more for Drg to get similar amounts of +accuracy for their 5 hit WS and to get TP. Drg's have a higher delay weapon than the 528 Scythe thus Accuracy is still an importance for them. Drg is still good for starting Light or Darkness renkeis.

But rangers relatively unchanged by new food changed, while melees are finding rapid growth in areas.

Sole Sushi does also affect Ranged Accuracy, or the slightly better Squid Sushi also. However Sushi in most cases for Rng is used usually for hard hnm's. Otherwise food like Yellow Curry or Bison Steak would be used to further boost Rng Attack.

So that still leaves them unchanged?

[Jei]

ranger was one of the most affected jobs by the food change.... you know. The same as other melee, *all* rangers used to eat meat kabob before the change too. And just like melee, we now have different food for ranged attacks and for range accuracy.. Just like all other melee. most meat pies like dalmel and hedgehog gives both STR and R. attack. sole and squid gives ranged ACC. No more meat kabob for all jobs all level range.