Is it me or is there DRK hate in the community?

[Drogen_Shomuro]

Originally posted by Langolier
This might hold up if lvl 3 SC's were needed for great exp

They aren't needed, but they're a damn good idea. Seems like a waste to let go of a 300-500 dmg Renkei effect + 200-400 extra dmg on an MB. SCs are the reason we can rival rangers, even though they do more dmg.

Also at end-game the SC's are needed anyway. So DRK's one specialty in parties is gone and we become a less effective WAR.

I assume you meant to say "aren't." The only reason people believe this is because everyone has a mindset that if you aren't doing enough dmg to a HNM, then you need to throw more rng at it. Although I can't speak from firsthand experience, I haven't found anything that leads me to believe it is impossible to SC on HNMs. Show me where skillchains are not a good idea in the end-game. Actually, show me why drks have no purpose in the end-game, and by no purpose, I mean that there is another class that can replace you ENTIRELY. Even if you did manage to find one, you shouldn't apporach FFXI like that. It's like playing Tetris and saying, "I'd so pwn this if all I got were those long 4-block pieces." Work with what you have and find out how you can be useful.

This still ignores the fact that RNG hit harder...

Hit more often...

I'm not ignoring that fact, I'm stating why this does not mean everything in the world. This isn't even true 100% of the time. Run a parser sometime and see exactly how much said rng outdamages you by. Many people have testified that they have outdmged rngs in their PT before, looking at these parser logs. Perhaps not always, but I'm breaking your claim that rng always outdmg any other DD.

Can enfeeble better...

I hope you're not referring to the enfeebs rng get by subbing nin... If you're ever subbed nin before, you know that /nin enfeebs have perhaps a .6% chance to stick on an exp mob.

Gain TP up the wazoo...

What is TP for? To weaponskill, correct? Half the time the rng uses this extra TP to keep Sidewinder from missing. If a rng's extra TP gain results in an extra WS for more dmg, then that is simply lumped into one of the reasons that they do more dmg. If you ever get into a PT with a rng, throw on a parser and see what the rng's average dmg per fight is compared to yours. Chances are, if you're a decent DD, the rng will only exceed your damage by about 400 per fight. This 400 is easily made up for by the renkei + MB.

Can do higher burst damage and survive it better than we can.

Please explain.

RNG doesn't need /nin to be effective. Or /war for that matter.

Explain this too. Explain how this makes rng a better class. Are you implying that they're better because they don't need a subjob to be effective? When are you ever not going to have a subjob besides Maat fight and Diorama-Ghelsba ballista.

Losing /nin would just mean they'd have to play it safe like the rest of us

Playing it safe means holding back damage, correct? If that's the case, then they're lowering their overall damage, which doesn't make them better than another DD.

The heavier damage other classes do outside of weapon skills kind of overshadows it in the end.

Prove that the (other DD's dmg) minus (your DD's dmg) outweighs the benefits provided by extra renkei dmg as a result of your WS, and stacking an assload of hate on the tank. You might argue that this isn't necessary, and I'd have to agree with you if you did. It isn't necessary, but it's still a damn good idea, and extremely practical in several situations.

A WAR subbing THF can land some nice Steel Cyclones, and still do crazy damage with his melee attacks.

This is true, but just because it's true doesn't automatically mean you can replace every drk in a PT with a war. They're not even in the same SC block. You have to think about how a PT functions as a whole, not DD_01's dmg + DD_02's dmg = PT effectiveness.

I just don't get it. SE makes a specialized class, but that class only barely edges out a 'generalized' class in certain situations.

In certain situations. In other situations, you straight out kick ass. FFXI is more complex than that. You can't expect one class to be universally better than another in a certain aspect all the time. Before you say one class is better than another, you have to consider EVERY conceivable application of that class in ALL situations. This is the balance that exists in having so many different classes fit into the category of "Damage Dealer." I challenge you to come up with a party configuration that will be the absolute best in EVERY situation. It's impossible.

What's your point? Taking more effort on my part to equal what a numb RNG can do doesn't balance anything.

My point is that a good melee DD has the potential surpass a rng in damage. Conversely, a crappy rng will outdmg a mediocre DD.

Players will, rightly so, gravitate to the more effective class.

1) Players will gravitate to what they conceive is the more effective class
2) Let's pretend for a moment that your favorite soda is Pepsi. If I told you that 70% of the U.S. population perceived Coke to be better than Pepsi, would you concede that Coke is better?

For that matter, you would have to find some way to qualify what "better" is. There is no taste index to measure what is better. In the case of FFXI, you cannot measure which class is "better" by the amount of damage they do.

I'm not hating, it's just that I enjoy writing and critical analysis. So long as this doesn't degenerate into blatant flaming, I'm having fun ^^. Perhaps you and I will learn something useful from this discussion.

[Jei]

I guess Rng's enfeeble would mean their bolts. Altho I found only Acid bolts to be reliably working tho. Sleep bolts doesn't sleep that often, venom is pretty weak, never play around with blind bolt.

[Drogen_Shomuro]

Oh, right, I forgot about those. Status bolts are indeed awesome. I don't see em much for some reason at higher levels though. I usually see higher lvl rng with either a bow or a gun.

Then again, drk's can use xbows and status bolts too, right? prolly not too accurate with their low rating for marksmanship, but with sushi and sniper's there's at least a chance of getting a shot off on pulls or something. As a thf, I loved getting in a shot at the start of fights for the extra TP.

[fuz]

You can use a SC+MB strategy on HNMs, but the /toss ranger method is easier. Melees take damage from AOE attack, and sometimes are unable to get behind a HNM to SA+WS due to kiting or spike flails. With the hectic chaos of an alliance, higher maintainece melees that require lots of support and a mob that doesn't run around usually do not produce better results than an army of rngs. Bards and mages scoff at the idea of melees since they need constant buffs and healing. As it stands, ranged attacks (rng, blm, smn, bst) > melee for the really difficult HNM fights. There are of course a few HNMs that melee DD are better than other DDs, but ~80% of the time the reverse is true. Melees are stun whores, trick bitches, and on cleanup duty to avoid aggro links. Awsome.

The problem with drk skillchain closing is that drk gets tp so much slower, that it starts to become a limiting factor no matter how powerful drk can close a SC for. Sam is much better for the SC closing job once they get their quested WS since they can do both light and dark (without switching to an A- weapon) and do very comparable damage to a drk's WS with str equips--sam easilly is one of the top DD in HNM fights because of it. Drk/thf's tp gain is so dismal I rarely make use of any spellcasting because PT's can NOT afford to wait for me with extra time spent on absorbs/drain/aspir. And as another strike against drk/thf, my melee attacks are absolute shit, nearly 1/2 the damage I do with /war in parsed results.

Drk spells in no way justify their existance in the path to higher damage. In short fights, it's only the WS that matters (or regular melee damage in super short fights). In longer fights, absorbs rarely come into play--if a mob is that tough, it's going to resist it. They only work on medium length fights. Basically the lvl 50-64 range in exp fights--beyond those levels all I do is stun, with the occasional drain/aspir sometimes I'll indulge with an abs-str before a WS, but that's rare. On the flip side rng sacrifices damage like drk when using status bolts/arrows, but they still do damage and get TP--with no MP spent.

As for out-damaging rng, I've done it. However that's only possible on easy to hit mobs with low def. No one cares about out damaging a rng on 'meh' HNMs or in a merit point PT. As mob levels go higher and higher, melees hit a sudden exponential drop in damage. 2h weapons barely hit for double digits and with 60% accuracy. Rangers on the other hand take a very modest drop in output from the prodigious acc bonuses and high damage attacks which seemingly ignore def. They can spike damage with barage and WS spam all they want, utsusemi (ichi and ni at lvl 74) cover them better than any armor a melee can use. Drk can't with souleater, and as a bonus it drains HP so we die even faster. Balanced, I think not.

[kuu]

:confused: What is this all powerful ranger you are speaking of?

Rangers only really get 10 levels of fame. from sidewinder -> arching.

Pre sidewinder, there damage isn't really much. you got your 100-200 whatever shot. and your 200-400 barrage. Though the problem with barrage is it feeds just as much TP as it does to the ranger.

A drk, drg, mnk can do eaqually as good, and they have their own area to dominate. Spells, pet, hp, chakra, etc.

Sidewinder is also not the most reliable depending on your monster and level, but usually the damage offsets it...sometimes...

After that you go into arching arrow. Some pt formations can skip that, but it depends on the pts. a Rng+thf combo will goto 71 before moving to light.

Once you move back down to arching arrow, it's not all that great, when drks get their SATA 1k spinning, mnks get their 200 bones killing, etc.

And acid is crappy, depending on what your speed of killing. spending 2 mins on monster gives you lots of /random to stick it. on chain 4-5, it 40 seconds to kill, not much /random time there.

Utsusemi hasn't been that good subbed since the update, WS will go through, take down multi, etc. This makes it worse since a barrage feeds tp, and hate going to a ranger with a monster who is about to unleash skill is death sometimes.

Finally just as rangers do 120% on flying, they have bones, crabs, other problems.

And the finally look at battles PARSER. They have records of it all around...forgot site at the moment. The end damage isn't that great for rangers, many times.

Drks and thf beat ranger DD from in the non sidewinder age.

[Jei]

It's not just WS. The damage modifier seems to really work differently just like what Fuz said. Whenever I play melee jobs, fighting a 200 exp class monsters and we can really see a signifiacant damage drop. Unlike when I play ranger where I seem to still be doing about the same amount of damage. And my ranger's miss rate didn't seem to got hit as much either.

This below is from my low level PT, only level 33.... PT set up was 1nin 4rangers 1blm. For 3+ years of FFXI it was the first time I've ever gotten that much exp at that level.... The fight was so easy I even expected to get less than 100 exp but no...


It's only level 33 PT but it's quite a prove to me :p If you think you can replace 4rangers with 4drk and can archive the same killing power.

[kuu]

You realize bats are flying right?

Throw mnks at bones, and see what you get...wait we know... it's call krt ownage.

[Jei]

Originally posted by kuu
You realize bats are flying right?

Throw mnks at bones, and see what you get...wait we know... it's call krt ownage.

Yes so what? What would you suggest we throw a 4DRK PT at?

A PT with many rangers work *not* with just bats. You can see 2rng 3rng 4rng PTs at every level range and they all work. a PT with multiple Drk? Nowhere to be seen.

[fuz]

Rng doesn't need to use WS or barrage to deal lots of damage. Their accuracy is unparalled, especially on higher level mobs. With high damage weapons and the unusually consistent damage that ranged attacks produce (even on high def mobs, wtf) they play the DOT game very well in incremental attacks. The fact that they have WS at all, and barrage pushes them over the top.

The damage they do, and the speed at which mobs die because of it trounces anything a melee can hold up. Yes, this edges of a bit in higher level exp PTs, but not much--and certainly NOT on most HNMs.

Utsusemi isn't the end-all be-all of invincibility. However it is much better than the highest def I can muster with an equip swap. I regularly eat criticals of 200+ damage on just 1 hit, in 2 or more hits and I'm in orange if not red HP. A rng just starts to recast on his last shadow and can take a 6 possible hits with no damage. With utsusemi:ni, 12-maybe even more hits.

Ranger was balanced back before when nin sub was unavailable--high damage across most situations in return for def lower than a mage. Before that, ranged attacks actually pulled more enmity than a melee hit as well, making rng a very risky job. Pulling hate was a death sentence, so a rng limited his damage to something close to a melee.

Fast forward to today, they've lowered the enmity for ranged attacks, given rng nin sub which not only helps with def, but acc with the extra weapon stats. Nowadays money and rng equips are in abundance--meaning one of the original barriers of cost is gone. Here we have a shining example of a job that has almost no risk in implementation, an obvious spot of imbalance that SE lets persist at the cost of other jobs.

[l)@RK-l)EVIL]

rng doesnt count as norml melee rng is rng even damage calculat not like other melee damage and they reach damage cap easy while all other melee cant ever

use pld 2h all melee attack wont do damage but rng will do
pld 2h " all physical damage wll be ingored but rng can still hit

if you want to talk about drk say drk vs drg sam mnk thf and so on but not rng plz :spin:

[Langolier]

Originally posted by Drogen_Shomuro
They aren't needed, but they're a damn good idea. Seems like a waste to let go of a 300-500 dmg Renkei effect + 200-400 extra dmg on an MB. SCs are the reason we can rival rangers, even though they do more dmg.

Yeah, but only if you don't have enough RNG's or BLM's to go around. SC's is how we lowly melee survive. I truly am thankful that I can be useful there... for a while.

I assume you meant to say "aren't." The only reason people believe this is because everyone has a mindset that if you aren't doing enough dmg to a HNM, then you need to throw more rng at it.

...because it's true. For the record, I don't have much HNM experience either. However I have read thread after thread after thread after thread after thread about it. I've talked to high lvl players. It's a fact: you can solve most fight by throwing more RNG or BLM at the mob.

Although I can't speak from firsthand experience, I haven't found anything that leads me to believe it is impossible to SC on HNMs. Show me where skillchains are not a good idea in the end-game. Actually, show me why drks have no purpose in the end-game, and by no purpose, I mean that there is another class that can replace you ENTIRELY.

You can SC HNM's... but it will take you a while to get TP, and you won't do shit for damage outside that SC. RNG will do good damage with attacks, and they can SC too...

Hm... now let's see. RNG will beat just about any melee with attacks. DRK, WAR, and SAM may be able to beat RNG with weapon skill damage, but it will take DRK and WAR so long to get TP that it won't be worth it. Also, outside of that WS their damage will be crap. RNG WS will still be fine.

I guess DRK can stun... BLM can stun too though, and they can do way more damage.

In certain situations, RDM can put Stun to better use too.

Even if you did manage to find one, you shouldn't apporach FFXI like that. It's like playing Tetris and saying, "I'd so pwn this if all I got were those long 4-block pieces." Work with what you have and find out how you can be useful.

That's not quite the same thing. I've put alot of time and effort into DRK. I'd like to know that I got something fun to do at end-game. I'd like to know that I could contribute something to an alliance besides my charming personality and bad jokes.

I'm not ignoring that fact, I'm stating why this does not mean everything in the world. This isn't even true 100% of the time. Run a parser sometime and see exactly how much said rng outdamages you by. Many people have testified that they have outdmged rngs in their PT before, looking at these parser logs. Perhaps not always, but I'm breaking your claim that rng always outdmg any other DD.

Not 100% of the time, more like 90%. I stand corrected. Also, even if I can outdamage a RNG in a standard EXP party, that's only because I'm limitting the RNG's potential. If he had two or three buddies to play with (fellow RNG) they'd be getting two-times the exp.

I hope you're not referring to the enfeebs rng get by subbing nin... If you're ever subbed nin before, you know that /nin enfeebs have perhaps a .6% chance to stick on an exp mob.

I was talking about their bolts. Acid bolts do make a difference. A hell of a lot more of a difference than my Absorbs. Or my sleeps, or my poisons. I suppose you could count Stun as enfeebling. Stun is one of DRK's few saving graces.

What is TP for? To weaponskill, correct? Half the time the rng uses this extra TP to keep Sidewinder from missing. If a rng's extra TP gain results in an extra WS for more dmg, then that is simply lumped into one of the reasons that they do more dmg. If you ever get into a PT with a rng, throw on a parser and see what the rng's average dmg per fight is compared to yours. Chances are, if you're a decent DD, the rng will only exceed your damage by about 400 per fight. This 400 is easily made up for by the renkei + MB.

They don't need to save up lots of TP now that they get Sushi. They land their WS's just fine. As I said, in a standard party, my DRK/THF may outdamage the RNG when we SC, but if he got rid of me (and the other melee) and got more RNG, he'd get way more EXP.

Please explain.

RNG can ride the hate barrier better. They can pull hate and survive longer than I can. One double attack can damn near kill me. It won't even get beyond the RNG's shadows. It's my opinion that nerfing Utsusemi when subbed, might solve the problem. When I stated this out-loud though the flames never stopped... of-course no-one ever offered a good counter-argument either.

Explain this too. Explain how this makes rng a better class. Are you implying that they're better because they don't need a subjob to be effective? When are you ever not going to have a subjob besides Maat fight and Diorama-Ghelsba ballista.

Yes I am. It makes them more versatile. DRK by itself is crap. RNG by itself will still do nice damage. It's enhanced by a SJ. DRK is made into a job with a SJ. RNG versatility allows them to sub NIN and still do high damage.

Playing it safe means holding back damage, correct? If that's the case, then they're lowering their overall damage, which doesn't make them better than another DD.

Exactly. If they had to play it safe like the rest of us, then they wouldn't eclipse us so badly.

Prove that the (other DD's dmg) minus (your DD's dmg) outweighs the benefits provided by extra renkei dmg as a result of your WS, and stacking an assload of hate on the tank. You might argue that this isn't necessary, and I'd have to agree with you if you did. It isn't necessary, but it's still a damn good idea, and extremely practical in several situations.

Arrowburn parties prove that SC's are only nice when you don't have RNG's. Seriously, if we got rid of the melee DD's, everyone would have an easier time playing the game. There would only be a few small places in the game that would be difficult.

This is true, but just because it's true doesn't automatically mean you can replace every drk in a PT with a war. They're not even in the same SC block. You have to think about how a PT functions as a whole, not DD_01's dmg + DD_02's dmg = PT effectiveness.

I don't know... Raging Rush --> Raging Rush is pretty good I hear... and WAR/anything will do more damage than DRK/WAR. Perhaps they're even if the DRK manages to pop Souleater for the full durration every time it's ready. He'd be eating lots of MP though.

In certain situations. In other situations, you straight out kick ass.

Such as? Those certain situations, if they exist, make up about 1% of the game.

FFXI is more complex than that. You can't expect one class to be universally better than another in a certain aspect all the time.

Not all of the time. Most of the time.

Before you say one class is better than another, you have to consider EVERY conceivable application of that class in ALL situations. This is the balance that exists in having so many different classes fit into the category of "Damage Dealer." I challenge you to come up with a party configuration that will be the absolute best in EVERY situation. It's impossible.

That won't happen. Sure, 1 or 2% of the game might not be beatable with only BLM and RNG, but I have yet to hear about it.

My point is that a good melee DD has the potential surpass a rng in damage. Conversely, a crappy rng will outdmg a mediocre DD.

Sure, but then a good RNG comes along and without quite as much effor puts him to shame.

1) Players will gravitate to what they conceive is the more effective class

People aren't that stupid. They hear RNG is better... they then observe RNG, and see that it seems to be better. The stereotypes about RNG being better than other DD's didn't pop out of thin air. It's true. It's based on fact. They don't concieve that RNG is more effective, it is more effective 90% of the time.

2) Let's pretend for a moment that your favorite soda is Pepsi. If I told you that 70% of the U.S. population perceived Coke to be better than Pepsi, would you concede that Coke is better?

That's not a fair argument. What evidence aside from oppinion is there that Coke is better? There is factual evidence and data that RNG is better.

For that matter, you would have to find some way to qualify what "better" is. There is no taste index to measure what is better. In the case of FFXI, you cannot measure which class is "better" by the amount of damage they do.

You can assess with class is 'better' by observing how much faster they make the EXP come in, or how much faster they kill the HNM.

I'm not hating, it's just that I enjoy writing and critical analysis. So long as this doesn't degenerate into blatant flaming, I'm having fun ^^. Perhaps you and I will learn something useful from this discussion.

I'm not hating either, not even RNG. However I've yet to see anyone seriously bring up an argument that RNG is balanced. They always either flame, or they bring up the tiny 1% of the game where RNG is not king. Overall, no one can deny that RNG is the better DD.

[Icemage]

RNG is currently the most unbalanced job in FFXI. Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't paying enough attention, be it in XP parties or in HNM situations.

Granted, there are cases where RNG are not desirable for some of the toughest HNMs, but "generally speaking" the distance advantage a RNG enjoys, along with their faster running speed (Strider Boots or Crimson legs) allows them to participate much more effectively in kiting fights, and certainly much more survivable than any melee that has to get closer to attack.

Dragoon and Dark Knight are currently odd men out. They have no special abilities which make them useful end-game. None whatsoever.

Perhaps a Dark Knight could function as a debuffer using some of the new JSE and equipping a Pluto Staff. Still seems rather silly, but the stat drain on a successful Absorb is fairly substatial at 75, which in turn can make other players more effective. I wouldn't hold my breath about whether or not that slot in an alliance couldn't be better put to use by some other job, though.


Icemage

[l)@RK-l)EVIL]

Originally posted by Icemage

Dragoon and Dark Knight are currently odd men out. They have no special abilities which make them useful end-game. None whatsoever.

We have a use endgame not all hnms is +lv90 every baby hnm or not that strong hnm drk shine better than rng in many places and way more useful

however for gods/kirin/++++IT hnms
rng more better and stronger

and drk have special use endgame stun and sata ws highest damage its damage + good hate for tank same time
the only job kinda have no use is drg
drk is useful but there is other jobs more stronger when it come to damage like blm-rng for example thats why drk not much needed and thats doesnt make us usless 2~ drk for 1 ls is enough but like 10 rng in 1 ls can never be enough ppl always want more rngs/blms cuz this jobs more useful

[kuu]

RNG is currently the most unbalanced job in FFXI. Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't paying enough attention, be it in XP parties or in HNM situations.

I've static with enough rangers as well as random ones, but the holy grail they are not.

MY war/nin pre 53 constantly out hate, and out damage ranger counterpart. they're nothing special, except out TP me, just like I can out tank them.

Parser wize, Thf will out damage ranger on pre sidewinder. Drks out damage rangers on crabs where peirce damage reduction soaks up and mnks do even better if I remember right. Beetles I believe drks should also be able to outdamage.

Flying, like flies, birds, bats rangers win hands down.

Before food change, Melees suffer from acc, now it's more even playing field.

Once rangers get Sidewinder They become king of the hill with the 1k boom, though...

Sidewinder is weird... you can have all the acc in the world, but sometimes, it just missess... takes flies @lvl 64-67 boyah. Decked out in acc gears, all the RACC money can buy(literally, peakcock included). Will 50/50 miss on a 200xp fly. We had no idea why, it just does, sharpshot, pp arrow, TP, it just missess...
on the other hand a 180xp fly it raises to around 80% hit.

Yea, if you parse those types of fights, rangers don't fair so well.

The playing field somewhere around those levels starts to even out again, and goes into specialization. Rangers+thf don't goto krt, etc. Who becomes a trick partner, etc.

On HNM++++ end games... who needs rangers... just have BLM, SMNs, and SAMs.

[Icemage]

Parsing the numbers isn't what it's all about, because individual parties are always limited by the weakest link. A lot of people say "wow, I did as much damage as the ranger", but the fact is, most of the time a ranger has to hold back to maintain the party flow. Such is the nature of the job. Look at the devastation a RNG/WAR can wreak - but look fast, before he gets pounded into hamburger.

RNG/NIN parties flow much smoother than most other DDs because utsusemi greatly reduces down time by relieving pressure off of the healers. When present in multiples, especially in extreme cases of arrowburn, RNG/NIN produce virtually zero down time.

Rangers are also the fastest pullers. They have a strong, accurate ranged attack, so they don't need to approach enemies, plus they don't take much damage on their way back to camp. They have radar, wide scan, stealth, plus access to Strider Boots to increase their pull speed, and they can Shadowbind to get out of trouble when necessary.


Icemage