Is it me or is there DRK hate in the community?

[Pai Pai Master]

moved to Dark Knight forums.

[Icemage]

Originally posted by little ninja

this is what i was refering to. an commenting how much mp a drk whos using it smart. will actually waste. regardless if it lands, or miss's causing a recast. an i know from my experience, that not always can a drk gain back mp with aspir. most times it ends with with the 10 mp it cost to cast it.,

i think why i quit drk was rdm, an brds never gave a crap about a drks mana. i know when i went under 100 id ask for a refresh. an be told " your a drk, you really dont need mana.". or id go near the mages to get a ballard for some mp til the puller got back, an always got yelled at for it. lol blm used to get pissed when i didnt stun, or didnt have the mana cause of the poor attitude from rdms an brds. then again when i drew hate, they never gave me a stun so i could get cover..

Against most enemies that have MP that have NOT used a Shell effect (Bubble Curtain, for instance), Aspir with capped dark magic skill tends to give back at least 20MP for the 10 you spend, sometimes much, much more. Granted, a Dark Knight isn't going to be able to swap in a Dark Staff the way a RDM or BLM can, so that works against you, but DRK also have A rank skill. Doesn't guarantee that you won't get a resist, but it defintiely helps.

Speaking as someone currently levelling Bard, I make it a special point to try to get the DRK in range of ballads that I sing after battle. Only bad bards who don't understand their job will complain about a DRK who wants Ballads outside of combat (and I'm sure the RDMs will agree with me that good RDMs will generally be accomodating about Refresh as long as the DRK is spending MP wisely).

As for refusing to stun enemies who aggro on a BLM just because they've never stunned one when you've pulled aggro is both immature and illogical. "Gee, all those players suck, so I'm going to suck just to spite them!"... um...?


Icemage

[Tru]

there are items later on to help drk's dark magic land without being resisted, af helm, af2 hands or crimson hands, abyssal earring, af2 legs, the dark tourqe, all w/o making the drk loose their TP. just my 2 cent :sweat:

[Jei]

In a PT with Drk or Pld I tend to use /brd. Ballad generally is enough to keep Drk's MP going on for a while. I add Drk into my refresh cycle when their MP goes below 50-60%

[Kilgraw]

Refreshing the Drk depends on the Drk really. Some are crazy with mp, others aren't. I'm obviously not going to waste casting 40 mp on a Drk that has only used 60 mp when refresh gives 160. Everything is always situational.

And I do the same Jei. If my party is like this: Pld, Drk, Whm, Blm, Rdm, whatever damage dealer. I use /brd, and find it rather effective... Busy, but effective.

[little ninja]

icemage when i was a drk i cant tell you how many countless times fighting gobs id cast a stun. then to only momments later watch it rdy bomb toss again, an the blm who isnt really casting much, an still has 3/4 of its mp stands there an doesnt stun, thus letting me take a 700+ bomb toss. those times piss me off the most. an i cant even begin to tell you how many times fighting gobs, i was asking for a refresh or ballard cause my mp was at 25%

most times i saw a mob turn towards the mages, A. my stun wasnt up yet. an if that was the case, i was voking an sometimes even using last resort to try an draw back hate. so the mob would leave the mages alone. the one thing i noticed is when the mob went after the whm, a blm will refuse to stun the mob. i seen this as a drk, an as the ninja tank.

" you have aspir." was the number 1 line i heard from every other job in the game. even when i was lvling my ninja thats all i ever heard others say to the drk. an all he was doing was casting his absorb agi, aspir, an drain. with an occasion stun.

heck maybe i just had alot of bad mages. chalk it up to my crummy server.

[Gwynn]

Erm... well, I'm only level 45, so I'm still a little noobish, but in all honesty I don't ever discriminate against any job. If theres a Drk lfp and I need a DD, I'll get him. I'll invite Dragoons without thinking twice about it. I believe that all jobs have their place in the game, and as a Final Fantasy Fanatic it is my duty to make sure that all of the jobs in Final Fantasy get a fair chance in my mind, as does every person I meet in FFXI. Sure, having a party thats not totally l33t may not get XP as fast, but I mean... its just a game, right?

I think Drks are awesome... I've always liked Magic Knight type characters.

[Langolier]

I get the impression that there is hate in the community for DRK because whenever you bring up our serious flaws... you get flamed.

I'll admit that I haven't reached Merit parties or HNM's (I did fight Bombqueen a few times ), but I've read enough about it and analyzed other classes to realize that we are probably the weakest end-game class, perhaps surpassing only DRG. Even that needs thought, as their Main Job Abilities are probably more useful in Merit parties than ours.

Also you can look at forums everywhere and see people bragging about out DD'ing us, despite the fact that enough thought will cause one to deduce that beating a DRK in damage isn't hard at all.

Berserk and Double Attack allow us to be a DoT class, but a Warrior gets both of abilities, more defence, Utsusemi if they wish, or SATA.

Thus they can come damn close in SC damage, much higher TP gain, over-all better attacks, and thus higher DoT in conjunction with more survivability.

The more I think about it, the more I think we're a broken and gimped job.

We aren't invited for Souleater.

We aren't invited for Last Resort.

We aren't invited for our Absorb spells.

Outside of HNM"s, we aren't even invited for Stun, that's just a nice bonus.

We are invited to do equal DoT to a Warrior with Berserk and Double Attack.

We are invited to do high Burst Damage with SATA Cross Reaper, Spinning Slash, Ground Strike, or Spiral Hell.

The only things from our main job that are ever desired are our end-game weapon skills, which considering our slow Tp gain and only slightly higher damage, make them inferrior to a degree to other weapon skills,... and of-course we are invited to HNM's for Stun.

Our Elemental Magic is worthless, and our Enfeebling is too low to be of use on anything higher than a DC, usually.

Someone explain this to me:

How is it balanced that a Warrior gets access to all the best DD equip and all the best Tanking Equip?

How is it fair that Warrior can out-DD me, when I can't out Tank him? I can't even match his tanking skills.

If I want high Burst Damage that only slightly surpasses the WAR's on a per-WS basis, I must sub /THF and give up DoT.

He can get both and all he has to sacrifice is an off-hand weapon and Utsusemi.

He'll still Defender, he'll still have Provoke, he'll still have Berserk, he'll still have Double Attack, and he'll still have Aggressor.

What is the point to specialization if a 'generalist' can match and sometimes even surpass you at your given specialty?

Of-course it wouldn't be hard to fix this without being too creative.

Fix Last Resort.

Give us Double Attack? Warriors never like this idea... but I fail to see how it would hurt anything. They still get Defender, they still get Berserk, and they still get Aggressor.

I have two ideas for Last Resort:

Durration 1:30, recast 5:00.

Effect: Attack +50%, Defence -50%. (+Enmity is optional)

Or

Durration 0:30, recast 5:000

Effect: Damage dealt +15%.

Off-topic... I know... but... the fact that the community as a whole is so opposed to any improvements to this class, while at the same time, on the whole, resisting nerfing to other classes that are clearly overpowered, in my opinion, shows that there's DRK hate.

They seem to be very happy that they can without a doubt dominate us at end-game, not that they ever really had any trouble, and they sure as hell don't want it to change.

[RuneGrey]

I'll disagree on the whole 'Bard wouldn't give me Ballad midfight' issue. I understand that Dark Knights need mana - I always include them in the post fight Ballad if at all possible (not difficult, especially if the Paladin needs it as well, and the Dark knows to run back to get it) and I usually start my ballad routine before the fight ends, so the melee get the maximum amount of MP during the downtime between fights.

Midfight Ballad? That's an entirely different story - in a lot of XP spots, getting Ballad on the DRK usually involves some very crazy positioning, and I may well end up overwriting another melee who needs their combat buffs. If both the Paladin and Dark Knight are hurting for MP, Ballad hits everyone - I can justify 2 people out of the 3 on frontline needing Ballad at that point, but just 1 means that I'm going to be costing other people the boost that they need for fighting. And getting Ballad on the DRK will, in my experience, 9 times out of 10 not serve to conclude the fight any faster. The best way of ensuring the survival of the party is to make the monster dead.

(Then again, I'm not shy about going overboard to draw hate myself if the monster is going to chew on one of my fellow mages. DS + Curaga, hit it with lullaby until it goes to sleep or turns on me, etc - I can take hits better than the other mages can, and I've got an Earth Staff and my AF body to help with those hits.)

But I have to agree that DRK gets no love endgame - then again, very few jobs *do*. Its BLM/RNG/MNK > WHM/BRD/RDM/PLD/NIN > Everyone else when it comes to most endgame content for effectiveness. I'd like to see everyone be able to have something to contribute at the later levels - while 3 or 4 RNG / BRD / RDM parties may be good for quick XP (and I'm talking XP figures that are REDICULIOUS - I've racked up 8-10k an hour with these parties, killing mobs for a base 230 XP, and only ramping up higher for chains), its easy to see that the combination is rediculious overpowered.

I think it'd be nice to see Dark Knights do more consistantly high damage over time. And it'd be nice to see them be able to do good SC damage without having to rely on the /THF sub - maybe not *great* damage like you see now, with 1000+ Light bursts, but still *good* damage.

[Jei]

Langolier - you point out the negative aspects of Drk pretty well. IMO players of other class/job like me probably won't be aware of that. Only experienced Drk players will even know what your class/job flaws are imo.

As for me, I play Rdm and right now Ranger. If the jobs im playing got nerfed of course i'll be unhappy. But since I haven't played Drk, nerf them and I wouldn't even have a clue what happen. So to say that the community wants Drk to stay gimped isn't so true. Players playing other jobs probably just don't have the knowledge about Drks and their problem.

[Langolier]

I don't really want any other jobs nerfed.

In a perfect world, SE would boost everyone before nerfing another class...

However usually it's easier to just delete something than it is to build and implement a new Job Ability or spell.

I haven't quite reached end-game, but I've been playing DRK for well over a year, so I'm well away of it's strengths, flaws, and potential.

You may not have a vendetta against DRK, but alot of other people certainly seem to.

[Macht]

Originally posted by Langolier
I don't really want any other jobs nerfed.

In a perfect world, SE would boost everyone before nerfing another class...

However usually it's easier to just delete something than it is to build and implement a new Job Ability or spell.

I haven't quite reached end-game, but I've been playing DRK for well over a year, so I'm well away of it's strengths, flaws, and potential.

You may not have a vendetta against DRK, but alot of other people certainly seem to.

In programming deleting is not a smart idea. It would be tons easier to just not touch it unless you have to for repair or improvement. The fact they spend time making the changes weather they be considered nerfs or improvements is saying a lot in there efforts in the development of the game.

DRK really isn't a bad position at all, from my view in the past few updates they've been getting a love from SE. And abilities they have are still pretty unique to their job, most other jobs loose a lot of their unique qualities after certain levels were a job can sub it and do just as good or better as the sub being used as a main.

That same thing goes for RDMs, PLDs, BLMs, WHMs, SMNs, BRDs, and probably a couple others were they still have spells or abilities that can make them more unique then other jobs have. I love RNG but it's to bad that after lv. 71 all of the RNGs superiority with Ranged attacks is just about gone to were just about anyone else can do just as good.

In truth though a filthy stinking rich NIN could easily outdamage a RNG, that's the only thing preventing that though is none of the NINs being that filthy stinking rich.

[fuz]

Drk and drg kind of remind me of situational equips, good sometimes, but rarely all the time. Just swaped in for a few purposes--otherwise another job can do just as well if not better. Considering the lengthy exping investment, you get so little out of being these classes.

S-E is just so stubborn at trying to fix these melee issues. More ridiculously rare/expensive equipment is hardly a good fix. As if we don't have enough stuff to lug around to a fight.

[Langolier]

Originally posted by Macht
[B]In programming deleting is not a smart idea. It would be tons easier to just not touch it unless you have to for repair or improvement. The fact they spend time making the changes weather they be considered nerfs or improvements is saying a lot in there efforts in the development of the game.

Maybe so. So why did they nerf all melee as opposed to just giving the Relic Knuckles some odd effect that prevented Asuran Spam? May changed the stats so they did 0 damage or something. There must be a reason.

[quute]DRK really isn't a bad position at all, from my view in the past few updates they've been getting a love from SE. And abilities they have are still pretty unique to their job, most other jobs loose a lot of their unique qualities after certain levels were a job can sub it and do just as good or better as the sub being used as a main.[/quote]

What love exactly? JSE? That's it. And from what I hear, it won't be easy at all to obtain. We also don't know how good/poor it actually is. All of our Job Abilities besides Blood Weapon can be subbed. Granted, Last Resort is just as useless for Main Job subbing DRK as it is for the DRK him/herself. Souleater has limitted use when subbed...

About the only thing we get to keep to ourselves are Guillotine, Cross Reaper, Spiral Hell, and a few of the Absorb spells that are 38+.

I've never seen anyone tell me that we have it great end-game.

Against HNM's there's one thing we can do better than other melee: Stun.

I hardly call that a great deal, and for Merit Parties we just slow down exp. WAR, SAM, or MNK are all better choices. I'm not sure about DRG and THF.

We don't have a whole hell of alot of solo-ing ability, as far as I can tell.

I've actually thought about getting 75 and then capping Marksmanship, lvling NIN, WHM, and RDM, and testing this out for myself, but I'm still certain it won't be as good as other classe's solo-ing skill.

That same thing goes for RDMs, PLDs, BLMs, WHMs, SMNs, BRDs, and probably a couple others were they still have spells or abilities that can make them more unique then other jobs have. I love RNG but it's to bad that after lv. 71 all of the RNGs superiority with Ranged attacks is just about gone to were just about anyone else can do just as good.

RDM main JA's and spells are 38+ for a reason. They aren't subbed out.

BLM's don't loose their tier Tier IV's or Sleepga II.

PLD's gain several 38+ JA's.

WHM's still have Raise II and III, and some higher lvl Cure spells...

SMN's... I don't know anything about SMN'ers.

BRD's hardly have a problem...

RNG may not be as far ahead at end-game, but I'm still sure they're more powerful than anyone else.

Even if a SAM or WAR or MNK can come close to you in Merit Parties, you'll put them all to shame in BC fights and HNM's.

It seems SE is trying to make DRK more magical...

I have some ideas for that... maybe post 'em here sometime. (They're on allah, in a thread in the suggestions forum if anyone's interested)

[kumaeru]

Originally posted by Langolier
Maybe so. So why did they nerf all melee as opposed to just giving the Relic Knuckles some odd effect that prevented Asuran Spam? May changed the stats so they did 0 damage or something. There must be a reason.

Because it wasnt only on Asuran Fists. Every MultiHit WS had this effect. Asuran Fists was blown way out of proportion due to the need not to have a high base dmg weapon. 1 base dmg on H2H still can be good damage for Mnk. With that said it is obvious the problem was with the TP gain. Yes the TP change did suck.. not getting 50%+ guillotine returns hurt.

The only thing a Drk is subbed for is 5% souleater (works good on War/Drk and Mnk/Drk) and the ability to stun (Rdm/Drk chainspell stun rocks).

Drks still have one of the best constant dmging renkei ending WS's for both Light and Drk.

Drk gear is based around Hauberk, thick set and +str gear. This also includes the Abjuration versions Adaman/Armada gear.

So you would rather see something better than Adaman Hauberk?

Likelyhood of that ever happening is very slim. Hauberk in itself was amazing when it came out, and it still is. Maybe people have been using it too long and want something new, and just fail to see how good it is.

Yes Drk is a dead end job, and probably every lvl 75 drk knows it lol. No we're not as needed as say Rng, Pld, Blm, Brd, Whm, Nin, Rdm. But we still have our uses.

and for Merit Parties we just slow down exp. WAR, SAM, or MNK are all better choices. I'm not sure about DRG and THF.

How is War and Sam better? Drk/Sam spamming guillotine works just as fast or faster.