61DRK/30THF I dont get it. (in need of advice)

[dagon2002]

I dont get drk/thf at <66, every now and then i get asked to sub thf and when i build pts i only use it if i have a non pld tank. I am really stumped on how to play this combo. drk/thf i do to little damage to open the fight by only doing SATA (sorry 180 dmg doesnt apply proper hate and my normal crit damage is like 270 as a /war.....). I am going to try to outline what i did last night and i hope drks here feel free to tear me to shreds on what i did wrong.



xp site is Onzo , i am a lvl 61drk/30thf with a 61pld/30war and no blm. (jp pt btw, brd asked me to sub /thf so i did)



first pull, war takes first voke , land SATA 180dmg , hate doesnt move onto tank and he vokes. here is my huge problem, i dont feel like im doing my job. 180 bothers me big time.



Ok i build 130ish tp but im so tired of not doing my job as a hate control guy , so i figure ill just sata gillo onto the pld to start EVERY fight. Since gillo cant close any SC at this level i figure this is ok? (this is where i need a good drk to kick my ass) SATA gillo 600 dmg onto tank and for whole fight no hate issues.





my question is how do i play this job? do i SATA gillo onto tank to start every fight or do i just do my bad sata damage which imho doesnt do a thing in terms of hate.





p.s. i really need help on this , i have +19str and +16dex and 42 acc so gear isnt an issue (i switch between drk af gloves and rk gloves to see if +3 extra dex helps and doesnt do a thing at this point). IDK if drk/thf is simply to save myself and make life easy on the tank..... seems that way so far and i dont like it one bit. So im asking if drks here can maybe set me straight. thanks for the advice and feel free to bomb away at me.

[kumaeru]

Well, it's been repeated a lot. Sneak Attack as a Sub = a normal 100% Critical hit. As Thf main Sneak Attack is boosted by Dex.

Trick Attack as Sub doesn't add any damage, but allows us to put hate onto someone. As Thf Main Trick Attack damage is boosted by Agi.


Doing SATA onto a tank to try and "turn" it is a complete and utter waste of time. Even though it can turn it at times, the complications and time wasted organizing is bad.

Even at 65-75 this doesn't change.

Toramas at 61 is also bad. Personally don't do Toramas that early unless you have a Brd in the PT.


If doing Guillotine > Raging Rush you could have easily gotten the War to provoke/warcry (have AF Body or whatever +enmity War AF has) to turn it away from Pld. Then you would start the renkei SATA Guillotine if you wanted and put hate back onto Pld. Then War can do RR and depending on how damaging it is, it may not turn back.

Without double attack Guillotine is around 800 dmg. SATA guillotine is 800-900 too (for all 4), Because you are doing SA and TA on a Pld when you are not behind, you are almost garunteed to miss the first swing of Guillotine. If you are in a situation where you have to just Trick on a Pld.. than only use trick, adding Sneak hurts you're own damage.


As Drk/Thf you basically save you're SATA for renkei only. You shouldnt solo WS at the start. The reason why Thf sub may help (and why some may want you to have it) is because they don't want you ripping hate from the tank with Guillo because Drk take more damage than Pld (especially on those fast attacking toramas) and you would be a burden to the healer.

[l)@RK-l)EVIL]

your not main thf the sata at the start is just usless and waste mp (healing the other melee)

just let the tank vok and when its time to renkei the tank should slow down the hate then the other melee should turn the mob use his ws then you use your ws

[dagon2002]

so basicly the only reason to use /thf b4 66 is unless i am asked to and to basicly make life easier on the pld? why did they cut recast time on cover if plds dont wana deal with aggro lol. I am no more of an aggro monster then a lot of rng (u know , rng that does shapshot > ws > barrage)

I hear what you guys are saying but here is my problem. every time i pt as a /thf the pt normally does the normal sata setup at start of the fight. everything _l)@RK-l)EVIL says makes perfect sense but the pts i join dont do this. they expect me to sata at start of fight and stick hate onto the tank and this just is not the case for a drk/thf. This whole thing really hurts because i am a good player and right now as a drk/thf man i dont feel like a good player, i feel very very WEAK. gillo isnt used to close scs, gillo > rush > howling > sidewinder is kinda the norm and atm im not willing to use a gswd , gswd would put me into a sc closer situation where i would close a distortion sc for most part but im not willing to part with the damage and +5 acc that i get from vas. (i plan to convert to gswd at 66 though)


bottom line is i just learned this form you guys but how am i suppose to tell my pt this? i think its just really hard because most ppl at this level range dont know this and they think that drk/thf is this holy grail combo which is just a flat out lie.


hence the "myth" of drk/thf grows.

[eraw]

You only ever want to use /thf 60-64 when you are closing distortion with Sicklemoon. And, as you've seen, the initial SATA is completely worthless I just do a normal SA at the start of a fight. Any other time, and you should go /war for the superior DOT+tp build.

[dagon2002]

thanks guys for the feedback, this has really changed my outlook on how to play drk/thf.

[Dakin]

Play drk/war till 65/66 and find a good PLD.

[Ungerpurr]

The mob doesn't need to be turned for TA to stick your Guillotine aggro onto the tank...hell, it can be in the middle of attacking you, personally, from your position behind the tank, and you can TA guillotine onto them and all is well.

SA adds next to nothing to Guillotine, just TA guillotine onto the tank and SA for a normal crit from behind the mob, after you trick Guillo. That is what drk/thf is about 60-64. 65/66+ you're a skillchain closer, so getting the SA is more important than the TA (and the mob should die before it gets more than another 4-5 rounds anyway). 60-64 a thf sub on a drk is purely aggro control, so you can split up SA and TA as you see fit.

I agree about level 61 at toramas, also...they're very tough to hit at that level, even with obscene gear, unless you have a bard in the PT. I have issues against them at level 61 with +35 acc from gear, as a mithra monk; my elvaan drk friend also had issues against them at 61 with +44 acc.

[l)@RK-l)EVIL]

the hole point about drk/thf from lv 60 to 64 is not full hate control like main thf (sata at the start and so..)

drk/thf job is to turn the mob back to the tank after the other melee use strong ws like sidewinder for example

i was in many pts before as drk/war where the rng end up tanking after his sidewinder thats why they want your sata

in some of my pts at lv 67 we used slugshot 1400 > guillotine 1000~ the rng was so happy cuz he can spam slug shot without a worry and no tank can take the hate from 1400 damage at the start of the fight lol but with my sata guillotine both rng and pld love it

[Ednoon]

forget the SATA thing at the start of the fight its a waste. you can just build up to 100 and only use SATA on SC, i believe you can do Frag with warrior. If warrior has ninja sub you can SATA on him if the mob is at 50% of HP.
From my experience when mob's HP is 50%+ mostly you would have to SATA on PLD, if monster's HP is 50% or lower you can SATA on your SC partner because it hardly turn if you tank is a PLD.
/THF do suck abit on dmg but it helps alot for your team and you get to go all out with your JAs, a living dmg dealer is better than a dead dmg dealer.
/WAR, one thing you can never do is Souleater + Guillotine or other WS, if you try with warrior sub you'll die and wait till the fight is finsh and get raise. how is that helpful as a dmg dealer job? ^^
IMO Why /THF,
1. Your SC Partner most likely would be War/Nin, Drg/War, Rng/Nin, Sam/War, Mnk/War. their most benifit sub job.
War - Utsusime to blink.
Drg - Jumps.
Rng - Utsusime.
Sam - 3rd eye.
Mnk - HP, Dodge.
they can all tank better than Drk/War.
2. Drk uses their JA's before WS, you are going to take more dmg than all your skillchain partners.
that leaves DRK to sub THF in the end.
once you get use to it its all fun again, doesn't mean youre stuck with /THF though.