Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

[TBoTB]

I making this topic in response to the many arguments of Party correct vs "Gimped" subs. Accordingly im asking those who would like to perticapate in making suitable guide This fourms Job to post the PROS and CONS of EACH sub weither it be an appropiate sub or a non appropiate sub. Also please indcate which subs you would recommend for pting, perhaps in its own section in your post. If you would like to contribute more besides the job of this fourm please visit the other job fourms. after considerable information is recorded i will begin to make a guide for the site. Credit will go to the Users of FFXIO * taking down each name of a contributer would be tedius and in-effecient but i will work out an appropiate credting title*

The job guide would be added to ffxio database and added to the main page.

[pleb]

DRK subs depend on level:

1-10: You're best off subbing WHM, but you can sub whatever you want to.

10-30: Party friendly subs: WAR or WHM, depending on race and PT. WAR's provoke can be useful, as DRK can take hits at this level. Also subbing WAR increases DEF and STR. WHM will work if you're a taru, etc., or want to get by in a PT with fewer mages. However, hate is gonna be a problem: you should already be doing as much melee damage as your tank can hold. Some people sub THF at this level, presumably because it is the only thing they have, as it adds only a little bit of dex.

30-60: Party friendly subs: WAR. Beserk is much better than sneak attack from THF at this level. Many people sub THF, presumably thinking that sneak attack will up their damage by a lot. It doesn't, and this contributes to DRK's bad reputation in this level range. After Double Attack at 50, there's no excuse not to be subbing WAR. /THF is useful, however, if you're worried about dieing in parties you don't trust, as you wont' draw aggro as much. Basically, with sneak attack you will do higher damage for one hit, but less damage in the long run. (There is debate about this.)

60-75: Party friendly subs: THF, occasionally WAR, rarely SAM Basically at this level with decent equipment you're doing too much damage for your own good, so /THF trick attack is very useful. Also sneak and trick stack well with DRK's lvl66 great sword skill, etc. WAR is still useful for double attack and beserk for consistent damage, but you will have to hold back. SAM seems useful, as you would have more TP to do skill chains, but the problem is you will do too much damage and have to hold back. For this reason, /SAM is good for helping people with quests, but not especially for gaining experience in the average party.

At all levels /WHM is useful for helping with quests, and doing quests yourself. An argument can be made for taru DRK/WHM as well.

Gimped subs: BLM: even if you're a taru, if you want to sub a mage, sub WHM. The problem with DRK's black magic is that casting delays scythe swings, and your scythe is doing a lot more damage than your old spells (fire when blm etc has fire 2). You already have the black magic from DRK, so subbing BLM doesn't really get you anything. Useful only for Warp.

All other subs are gimped in my opinion, as they do not contribute to supporting DRK's purpose, which is to do damage.

[surlung]

1-30 subs don't matter... i did drk/rdm until 30.

30-60 MUST be warrior, no ifs and buts. Berserk alone is the reason to keep war sub, but at lvl 50, u get double attack.

60-75 I would assume thf and war (since i'm not there yet)

I plan to level thf and war both to 37.

WHM or RDM sub is useful for side stuff (sneak/invis/some heal).
SAM sub maybe for soloing and farming.. spam ws..

[Kosy]

I think sub is situational at pre-30s. A lot of times, you can get by with almost any job combinations you could put together (barring the "optimal" job/party discussions from interfering with this).

After level 30, I'd say WAR, but I'm biased (It's the only job I've ever subbed to my DRK). I know people have subbed THF even pre-60s, but that may be because a) THF was their job that they were leveling before/after doing the sub job quest and/or b) They might not like playing the WAR job class.

Some people also think it is efficient to just level up a sub THF and not bother with the whole switching around /sub dances that a few DRKs end up doing. So you'll see these people sub THF to their DRK from level 1 until "End Game."

I hate to make recommendations or shoveling "cookie-cutter" templates down people's throat. Everyone is paying their $12.95+ a month to play the game and I feel no one is in any real position to dictate to others on what kind of jobs they should main/sub.

Unfortunately, to get a party invite in general, you have to conform to this "cookie-cutter" mentality or face prospects of hours of LFG. Or belong to a laid-back LS community of sorts.

I'll play both WAR and THF subs on my DRK during post-60s play. Maybe I'll also recount in detail on what I've experienced (This includes screenies of my log and number crunching). I might even purchase additional equipment/items and give an account on what stats do for what and how (et al). I don't trust having to interview other DRK players since they'll probably exaggerate their claims to support their biasness (Don't we all?) and that would be totally "un"-scientific ...

[Xephoid]

DRK/WHM

I have been asked if I have /WHM sub for exp party by high ranking JP parties twice when I was Lv 40s and 50s. Of course I didn't have the sub at that time.

[RukawaSCSU]

I will only say something about 30-60 since the other ranges seem to have correct information.

I am DRK/THF after 30. Before that I subbed WHM, WAR, THF depends on the party set up.

30-49:

DRK/WAR has Berserk, DEF bonus. DRK/THF has sneak attack, which make only one critical hit per minute ( normal critical hit). Of course most of us will be disappointed how weak Sneak attack on sub is . However, Sneak Attack works quite well with Slice to end a renkei, like Distortion. I usually stack it with either Last Resort or Souleater, the dmg is quite high = higher renkei. I cant tell how much Berserk can give overall, but I dont think it could be any higher than critical hit every minute + the renkei and such. Also, if the DRK is rich enough at level 40 ( 2 sniper rings), I have nothing to say. But normally, they dont until near 50 or after. Since the lack of accuracy EQ, we count every single hit. So 1 critical hit ( 100% hit) every min aint bad. Not to mention the renkei. Once thing to take in account, Slice = bad for DRK/WAR< most of DRK/WAR dont use it since the dmg is not so good, and the miss rate is high ( well I think so based on my experience). So they usually use other WS = worse than Sneak + Slice anytime to me. So I think DRK/THF is better than DRK/WAR in this range.

50-59: DRK/WAR has defender and double attack, huge bonus. Defender can help when DRK pull or get aggroed. Double attack deal extra dmg, and sometimes boost WS and renkei. Pretty good. However, in that range, we start to fight some high evasion mobs like crab, pugil, raptor etc. If the DRK hit often( with good EQ etc) I believe DRK/WAR is the way to go. However, with a decent EQ ( maybe just the Life belt, 3 Acc Gloves, and one sniper ring), I think DRK/THF will have the lead. DRK/WAR will use VOrpal and wait for the randomness, when DRK/THF still can use Slice to end renkei, or Vorpal to lead renkei ( if needed). Vorpal can end as well, but nowhere near to Slice + Sneak + 1 ja ( we can never count on the randomness).

Something I wanna say is from 30-60 DRK/WAR has all the advantage with higher STR and Berserk. So basically, the dmg per hit is higher than DRK/THF's. However, DRK/THF can take the risk with Last Resort and Souleater to make the dmg ouput higher than DRK/WAR. Risk doesnt mean taking hit and wait for heal ( since its = slow down the party). Risk = higher hate. So with the higher hate, DRK/THF might need to pay attention on hate on the PLD, and estimate it in order to do more dmg than just normal hit and normal WS.

Some people will talk about party with THF< and without provoke, DRK/THF wont be able to do anything to help the THF in the beginning of the battle. Its not true. One absorb spell, then Stun = provoke, or approximately, but around that. The rest is up to the tank and the THF to set up Fuidama. Maybe in paryt with THF< DRK will need to do Vorpal more than Slice., but in my opinion, DRK shouldnt party with THF ( unless that party has DRG or SAM, some jobs that has better WS to renkei with Viper Bite and Dancing Edge).

[Machiko]

No buts, ifs, poos, I don't care =P

At level 60ish + you MUST have THF sub. SAM will not work, and neither will WAR. Your WS will get you killed, SA and TA are vital. You take on the role of a THF and a huge damage dealer without getting your ass kicked. Also, do not activate Berserk, Soul Eater, a WS at the same time. You're going to end up having to cancel them because the monster will start smacking at you. If the monster is smacking at you, you will die =P

[Langolier]

I've been wondering if the recent TP nerf in the last update changed anything about subs. This being that now you don't get 50% Tp back when you use Guillotine or any other multi-hit weapon skills for DRK (if there are any), so you wont be able to use them as often anyway. ..my question is, is it now possible that WAR sub will work 60+? I just dont want to be a DRK/THF, and I dont want to lvl THF because I hate the class. I'll level it if I have to ofcourse, but....


...?

[Kosy]

TP nerf or no - when you do use it, you will attract the monster's attention fairly often and without fail. So you'll need to be able to use your WS without problems ...

However, if you are assured of a main THF in party every time you are out to get xp, then you can use your WS and the THF can pin the hate back on to the tanker ... BUT ... from what people have told me - some of which I'm not so sure about the validity - THF can't renkei well with a DRK and a DRK should be ending renkei, not the THF. So there's your dilemna and why subbing THF seems to be the way to go post level 60 play ...

:sweat:

[dagon2002]

in terms of damage drk/war > drk/thf. No one can argue this fact. at 60+ if ur playing with a bad tank and heck u shouldnt be because ahem this is 60+ then u need ta for hate control. Bottom line to me is have thf and war at 37 and let the pt tell u what they need.

[Swordmaster8717]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

just thought i'd throw this lil tidbit in... DRK/DRG... DRG is supposed to be a bad sub period for all jobs cuz of no wyvern, i see that... according to the stat calculator it has.. what.. 1 less STR then /WAR, plus you get tp building abilities in jump and high jump, accuracy bonus at lvl 60, and with the Wyvern Earring (lvl 30, Haste +5%) you're taking off about 25 delay or so on your weapon, not bad for a 2 handed weapon user, and until amemet mantle at 61 no back armor provides more attack then the Wyvern Mantle (Attack +6, also needs DRG sub to take effect) and if it makes you feel better you can eat tentacle sushi for a 1% chance of Double Attack xD (did this with low lvl DRG/WAR... Double Attack took effect more often than i had planned on)

[Akashimo]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Personally i think there shouldn't be a biased statement of DRK/THF at 60+. I've seen drk/thf steal hate from tanks after doing SATA, both from lvling whm and thf. Also from farming/soloing w/ my npc which has a scythe, depending on timing and when she ws some skillchains can be made with dancing edge, may not be the best dmg from them, but some is better than none, espically when it can be used for hate control and to mb with. Espically in setups like thf, pld or nin, rdm, whm, drk, drg or sam. Remember, part of the game is to experiment and try different combinations. But if you really are concern about dmg, sub nin and do dual axes that way you have shadows to protect you if all else fails.

[711rocks]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Sorry that this is an old thread, but I've been leveling /drk as of late. Level 20-29 if you use /rng you get the acc bonus trait. (If you don't need provoke for your party.) 30 on I'd sub war for berserk though.

[Omniblast]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

There has been no discussion about DRK/DNC combinations... has anyone tried this out yet? Just asking for usage for pre level 60 THF combos.

[Callisto]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

I haven't seen used prior to 75, but pre-60 I wouldn't think it's that hot, since most of DNC's really nice shit is 30-35, granted you still have steps/sambas which are nice(and I think 1 Acc bonus?), but giving up Berserk and Provoke or Hasso/3E is iffy to me.