Dark Knight/Red Mage and my experiences with it so far

[TokeN]

im surprised, it says albert lee has no warnings to view

[Draconis]

Aye Awntawn, makes sense enough.

Thing is, most of these high levels are sitting in Jeuno just chatting with people or synthing. Weird. No flags up either. ~Shrugs~

I talked to some of my ls members researching things further, and our paladin said he met a Taru Taru Dark/Whm that was practically a god wherever he walked. Lots of Mana to throw about and do dmg with plus his melee. Not sure...I would have to see it for myself, but I trust my friend's judgement. He has also partied with a couple of Dark/Rdm's and said they did very well for themselves. One of the bonuses recently pointed out to me as well was the spell Blink, which can save a Dark's butt provided it works right. Not sure as I do not have blink yet. Will be a bit.

Also spoke with a level 46 Dark/Rdm at length and he gave me some useful info that I will have to test out later on. I will let people know what I find out and discover as time goes on.

But from what I have learned so far....having the rdm subbed has saved my party's butt more times then I can count right now. Too many things can go wrong and a few heals or debuffs tossed in the right direction go a long way.

Something I have learned.

People may gripe and say Rdm sub sucks under dark...but they sure don't complain much when Whm's are out of mana and said Drk/Rdm heals them near their death, avoiding a very costly xp loss.


More info on this combo to come as I level up further.

Draconis

[albert lee]

im surprised, it says albert lee has no warnings to view

its because i don't do anything that's really wrong. i don't say any racist comments or sexism or things of that matter. i figure moron, idiot, dumbfuk is okay. and wtf do you want me to get warnings? lol. and its not good for my health to fight with idiots like shuugo.:spin: :spin: :spin: so i stop. :spin: :spin: :spin:

[Vittra]

I grouped with a Taru DRK/WHM the past 2 nights and with all due respect, he sucked.. He did petty damage, honestly about as good as a Monk with no subjob and excrutiating delay....and he missed a whole lot (understandable), never even throwing heals except on himself after battles which we all gained back during pulls anyway. Then he would have to rest from blowing is load on healing...diminishing TP attacks. Basically an inefficient red mage with melee ability. Only dark magic he casted was Bio while I'm using Drain everytime my HP drops by 100 (sometimes using twice in a fight if it lasts that long, Mages hardly had to heal me because I do it myself with drain).

In short, I don't think I would ever invite a Dark/whm to my group because they aren't taking the role seriously, even as arrogant as that sounds . It's like having a Whm/paladin, utterly useless :\

It's hard enough trying to find a party as a Drk/War, add in the job discrimination and it grows more annoying.

Red mages seem like a more evil white mage and has some decent sides to it with Drk. Before becoming one I was seriously considering it, but then I wanted to play the role of a heavy melee damager so Warrior better suited me as a subjob. The idea of dark knight seems perfect to me. I played a Black mage until 30 and I was horribly bored, as much as I liked magic, I use the perfect amount as a Dark and very useful spells like Drain (And all other black magic spells I had bought as a BLM, that helps). But yea, i'm rambling now. Take care

[Draconis]

Everyone's experience will always vary when it comes to other players in their party. No one person is ever alike. My view is that if I know someone, and they have a slightly whacked job combination, (( Not completley off the wall mind you )) then I will easily take them into my party compared to your avg straight laced Dark/War etc.

I will ALWAYS trust a competent player I know by reputation, despite their job combo pretty much, due to the fact that ignorant players have gotten my party killed MUCH too often, wanting to pull when the whm's have no mana etc.


Of course, that being said, there is no way I would take in a whm/paladin as you placed as an example. A Drk/Rdm yes...maybe some other combos. But ones I know to be completley insane...um...no.



anyways, another post coming up below this one.

I have to find the file and cut and past the text therein.

Draconis

[Aaramis]

As I've argued before, the skill of the player can sometimes make up for any "strange" or unusual combinations they might be trying out.

Had that DRK/WHM used juices to replenish their mana without having to sit and lose TP; been puller for the group (Dia pulling rocks) and had done a decent job at it; downtime / emergency healed; debuffed if no RDM available (Paralyze and Slow probably available to him); and so on, your opinion might have changed. Knowing *when* to sit and recover mana as a meleer with some mana is very important. If you've just finished off a creature with a renkai and have 10% TP now, now might be a good time to grab a seat and med up. Otherwise, it's a waste of TP. With a mage subjob, your spells aren't going to make or break a group anyways, so it's important not to waste your melee aspects as well by not being able to join in renkais.

However, I still feel, especially at higher levels, people want very specific roles in the group, and a DRK/RDM or even DRK/WHM is generally felt to be not needed when you already have a RDM/XXX or WHM/XXX in the party, and they need a dedicated damage dealer (and you do miss out quite a bit by giving up a WAR's double attack / berserk, THF's sneak / trick attack, or SAM's meditate).

Then again, friends are usually more lenient than strangers, and a good PT of friends who know their roles might actually benefit from a class combo like DRK/RDM with some versatility.

*shrug*

[Vittra]

True, a lot of times me & my groups will invite ANY melee within our level range regardless of subs because you want to get moving. I can't comment on higher levels, but I assume the picking and choosing becomes more important later on as opposed to "take whatever you can get".

And another thing you said was true too, competent players can make their roles excel if they know what they're doing. A galka Whm with pally sub could easily take a party under his wing if he's good! But that extra 100+mp could be what saves your group if he subbed Blm or Red :\ Hope that's a good point too.



Cheers!

[Draconis]

Allright, found it.


Now then, before I even decided to take up what some may deem as an absolutley stupid, or insane trek into this, I checked up the stats on Mithra for three Job combos on the Stat calculator. Which unfortunatley now seems to be down for good. Keeps giving me some stupid error when I try and use it.

I did heavily research all of this before I even started into it, and I hope the stats will reveal some of my thinking when I finally made my descision. I placed it at three benchmark levels. Level 1, 30, and 70.


The job combinations I left for myself to decide on were Drk/War, Drk/Sam, and Drk/Rdm.

Mind you, these are statistics for a Mithra character. No other race.

Below are those stats.


[code]
Dark Knight/Warrior Benchmark Levels
Level Hp Mp Str Dex Vit Agi Int Mnd Chr
1 38 16 10 11 8 9 8 6 5
30 514 132 36 38 29 34 30 20 19
70 1244 292 73 78 61 70 63 43 40



Dark Knight/Samurai Benchmark Levels
Level Hp Mp Str Dex Vit Agi Int Mnd Chr
1 38 16 10 11 9 8 8 6 5
30 514 132 34 38 30 33 31 21 19
70 1244 292 70 78 62 68 65 45 41

Dark Knight/Red Mage Benchmark levels
Level Hp Mp Str Dex Vit Agi Int Mnd Chr
1 37 21 9 10 8 8 9 7 5
30 498 158 33 37 29 33 32 22 19
70 1208 348 69 77 60 68 66 46 41

[/code]

As you can see, Stat wise, Rdm sub is very little different from Samurai sub. Warrior is where the difference really shines through, with a difference of 4 points of Str and a 1 point difference in Dex and Vit, a 2 point Difference in Agility, but a definite higher Intelligence, Mind, and Charisma.

The difference of 4 points of Str can be made up with a simple belt, RSE, AF Armor, or just simple equipment. As the saying goes, most parties will take a well equipped Dark Knight over a poorly equipped one. And Frankly, I keep myself armed to the teeth, always. I make darned sure I always have top notch gear before I go seeking invites. I don't desire death too much, and staying alive by having the best gear I can is one of my mainstream goals. The main point I have here is that most of these shortcomings stat wise, can be overcome and brought up above the racial maximum via good equipment. Will it be anywhere near what a Warrior sub under Drk might have? Possibly, not everyone can afford the best gear. You will always come across a variance. That is just the nature of things. But the point is, the shortcomings which some may deem unsacrificable, can be overcome with gear.


Now the one major point of contention, which I do NOT know about, nor have seen a stat calculator for, is the BASE attack and Defense ratings, and then these ratings affected by equipment. So far, even with Gear equipped, the ratings are the same for both the Drk/War combo and the Drk/Rdm combo. But then again, I am also very low level at this point. I am, as I level up every level, making sure to check each combo and write down their base attack and defense, then check it fully equipped. So far it has been the same on both combos when I equip all my gear. We shall see if such remains the same as I progress further along.


Now the one major glaring difference that some people look at is the fact that I am sacrificing Double Attack, berserk, an attack bonus etc.

Well, I am also Sacrificing Samurai's Tp regeneration, which for that sub is useless until you hit Dark knight level 60. As you can see, a Sam sub is pretty much a rdm sub save a 1 pt stat difference in some places and with more hp and less mana.


I did heavily research this, and I like the idea and benefits rdm will give me down the road. I can travel across regions easier, I can cast defensive spells that can save my arse, and I can save lives in the party when things go bad (( and you know it happens more often then we all would like it to )) for the party.

I can also Enchant my weapons, give myself blaze spikes, buff with Phalanx and stoneskin later on...it DOES have it's benefits. Survivability. If Hate should turn my away, I have the options of providing myself enough of a defensive buffer to keep myself alive until the Paladin or tanks can reassert aggro off of me.

You guys may not think the dmg buffs and debuffs may be much, and such may prove to be true, however, down the road I imagine the changes will be quite useful to me and to the party. And I would rather be a helpful asset to the party, whatever that focus may be as I head down the road of this path, then be a liability that dies alot.

I hope this information has proven useful. Once I hit the very high Levels I will write up a full guide based on all of this to help others. As I said, this is all meant to be helpful, not a statement of what is uber. It is up here to help people make an informed descision instead of one based on opinions or first glances. My main hope, is that no matter whether one decides to use this combo, or ignore, that at the very least.....I am being helpful.


Draconis

[Aaramis]

Just to reiterate, stat points mean very little in the endgame.

Having 3 higher str, but 1 lower dex between 2 subjobs, for instance, means precious little. Both can be overcome with equipment. Hell, even HP/MANA can be altered to a large extent (ever seen a Taru in full RSE with Physical/Shield Earrings? Almost Galka HP pool, I tell you...).

The true comparision is between class / job abilities.

Your argument for RDM is this :

I can also Enchant my weapons, give myself blaze spikes, buff with Phalanx and stoneskin later on...it DOES have it's benefits. Survivability. If Hate should turn my away, I have the options of providing myself enough of a defensive buffer to keep myself alive until the Paladin or tanks can reassert aggro off of me.

Don't take this the wrong way, but those aren't the strong points of subbing RDM. En- buffs do a pittance of damage, and only make a difference at lower levels and with fast weapons. A Scythe hitting for 300 dmg isn't going to make a noticeable difference in DPS if you have Enthunder on and hit for an extra 11 dmg.
Same with Blaze Spikes. When a creature turns towards you and slaps you for 300 damage, your 10 dmg Blaze Spikes aren't going to do a whole lot. Besides, you shouldn't be tanking anyways. A good tank, especially at higher lvls, can keep aggro no matter what you do.
Phalanx / Stoneskin. Nice spells, but again you shouldn't be tanking. Even with Last Resort and Soul Eater active, a good PLD should be able to keep aggro.
Waste of mana IMO unless you're soloing, in which case they're GODLY.
And even with a slightly higher INT, your magic bursts won't hit for a whole lot. Even as RDM main they don't hit for the same kind of damage that a BLM burst would do.

On the other hand, what RDM *does* give you is emergency heals (fairly gimped though. Max Cure3, and your MND stat will probably be low; but it's still nice to have); some debuffs (nothing compared to RDM main, but Paralyze / Slow / Silence / Gravity, for example, are still very nice spells to have); Sneak/Invis; Regen; Blink.

So the comparison becomes :

/WAR -> passive ATK/DEF up, berserk, warcry, double attack.
/THF -> evasion up, trick attack, sneak attack (gil finder / treasure hunter too, i guess)
/SAM -> third eye, store TP, meditate
/RDM -> emerg. heals, some debuffs, blink/phalanx/stoneskin, regen

[Draconis]

True, but you see I stated my goal was survivability, NOT to tank, but to survive better. Will the survivability compare to a warrior sub natural defense? No idea, as so far I have not seen a major difference between attack and defense on both subs when I have full gear equipped. It's only been at base attack and def that I see a difference. So I cannot say as to what the def is of a 60 drk/war compared to a 60 Drk/Rdm. However, I do know that my spells can help compensate for a weakness in that, should there be one. Blink for example, will take a hit or two in my stead.

In no way, shape, or form, do I desire to tank. Blink, Stoneskin, Regen, Phalanx etc is there to be placed on me in case I DO get hate...which I will. It's there to add to my survivability, maybe give me the equivalent of one or two more hits that the mob pummels me for that CAN make the difference between life and death for me.

It is, in a way, a bit of a selfish combo if you think about it. It is mostly about buffing yourself and staying alive. True, Blazespikes and enthunder for example may not add much, but dmg is dmg, and each and every ounce of it one can squeeze out will make a difference in the long run. I have been in situations where 5 hp left on a mob has made the difference between a party's life, and it's death. One enthunder swing could have made that difference and killed that mob and saved the party.

Oh, and you forgot Fast Casting on the Rdm benefits too. Fast casting is there to increase spell casting speed when it might also make a difference for that vital drain spell getting off.

Plus Paralysis Resist Benefits, Magic Attack up, Bigger Mana pool to draw from, Higher Int, Higher Mind.... Magic Defense Up, there are some bonuses other then spells. ^_^


And yes, wandering out alone and going from region to region, this combination is Definitley powerful.


So the Comparison is as follows as I see it:

Warrior Sub: Provoke, Berserk, Defender, War Cry, Defense Bonus, Resist Virus, Double Attack, Attack Bonus etc

Samurai Sub: Warding Circle, Third Eye, Meditate, Resist Blind, Store Tpx2

Red Mage Sub: Resist Petrify, Fast Cast, Magic Attack Bonus, Magic Defense Bonus, Resist Petrify 2nd boost, Clear mind.

All Rdm spells up to Shell II I believe. Which, for a dark, the ones that would be useful for my goals are any of the debuffs if no rdm, the enchanting spells, sneak, deodorize, invisible for solo wandering, Regen, Blink, Phalanx and Stoneskin. Also take into account spells like Sleep etc which can help control adds in case others do not get to it in time.

~Addendum~

All this, and frankly, I just think the combo is helluva fun to play and a definite challenge. I like that. ^_^

Draconis

[albert lee]

...

[Bigokk McGock]

.

I'm not being rude, but some people will always be "newbies". It's just a fact of MMORPGS. I guess the PC term for newbie would be "casual player".

It's really all about fun.

If you're having fun playing a DRK/RDM, then you are accomplishing your goal.

If I'm having fun doing endgame things with the best stats/abilties/gear possible, then I am accomplishing my goal.

Cheers.

[Draconis]

Aye, I agree with you in this sense. It is all about really having with what one does with their character.


However, heh, I'm not a newbie to Mmorpgs. Been in em for about....5 or so years. Part of the fun for me is taking something apart and seeing how it works. Right now that is figuring out this main/sub job combo. I am having fun with it, and as you said, that is what counts.

In the end, I just hope to post up my findings and hope it will prove useful to other players.

Draconis