FYI: DRK Subs in a nutshell

[GraveCross]

I don't see why Dark/Redmage is frowned upon

Espescially when the level cap goes up.

It just gives your character so much more utility. Sure, you won't be able to do just as much damage as that Dark/War Dark/Thf or Dark/Sam, but your damage won't lack behind that much.

But the benefits are massive in my opinion. A nice MP boost combined with a bunch of utility spells ain't bad, espescially due to the Darks weakness rating.

A Dark/RDM gets the following spells

The Dia line (def down and dot)
Cures (weak ones, but helpful in clutch situations)
Weapon Enhancements (more damage)
Dispel (removes status from enemies)
Phalanx (nice debuff)
A variety of status spells (bind, blind, slow paralyze)
A bunch of protective spells (which probably aren't the best thing for a dark, but are handy to have if you get the hate)

And if the level cap goes up (which it will, but by how much and when is variable)

Raise (level 76)
Refresh (level 82)
Convert
Haste (96)

As I see it a Dark/RDM would be the ultimate debuff/attacker. Capable of intensly crippling the opponent through a variety of methods, then tearing it apart with great meele skills.

Sure, they won't do as much meele damage as a Dark/Meele, nor will they have some of the skills associated with those classes (obviously), but they will have incredible utility. Able to meele well, do magic damage well, heal to an extent, buff to an extent and debuff like crazy).

Basicly, it makes him almost self sufficent, as long as he doesn't get too much hate (specially when the cap is raised). The Drk/RDM can go and do his thing on the enemy, making it weak, meeling it up, and then healing himself if needed at the end of battles. When the cap is raised so they get Refresh/Convert, they can effectivly take even better care of themselves. They won't need someone else to watch their mp, and if they get in serious hp trouble, they can always convert if needed, or if they are low on mp (and aren't getting attacked) they can convert to pull off a key spell, and have the WM in the party heal them if needed.

[Varo]

How does DRK/SAM favor with parties? Are they wanted more? Or is it just back to the fact that we are Dark Knights and it is inevitable to change this fact.

Also, what is this "hate" you guys keep reffering too?

[Azraelwrath]

Put this on www.gamefaqs.com

[tomc1988t]

just a question..i hope awn or tazirai..or sum1 with knowlege pays attention to this...by calmness dosnt that mean resets the hate? like sub samurai and use a bunch of guillotines and it calms the monster..so u dont get hate?

[Awntawn]

Most of the stuff sub RDM gives you are helpful yes, but it's better to just have a RDM in the PT cast the buffs for you. As for weapon enhancements, yes they're OK, but at sub's level it won't nearly make up for all of the things you're missing from other sub's attack boosts. It all comes down to total usefulness. The small healing power won't make up for the efficiency that you lose from an attack boost. And yes, the difference in damage is "that big." Also, you will always have mages to cast the debuffs (if you don't, your party sucks and you shouldn't even bother), which would be higher level, more effective debuffs than DRK would be able to cast.

While phalanx is useful, once again, as a sub it doesn't really help that much more than defender (sub war) does, not to mention you can't taunt when subbing something other than WAR.

Also, they are likely going to make refresh a RDM only spell when the cap gets to that level.

DRK/SAM is more useful for level up parties with THF because to skillchain with THF, DRK has to use it's WS called Vorpal Scythe, which only hits once and returns barely any TP. Guillotine returns half of your TP (more with SAM sub), so you can keep using it at a constant pace. Unfortunately, Vorpal Scythe will completely upset the TP balance, so SAM's level 30 ability charges up TP and puts you back into the loop. Otherwise, you'd either just be using WS solo (waste of THF's potential) or constantly using skillchain without every using guillotine (waste of DRK's potential).

Also, the translation on the site for guillotine is wrong. Guillotine adds the Silence status, meaning it won't be able to cast spells for a time after you hit a monster with it.

Monster hate is basically how bad the monster doesn't like you. In a party, he will hit the person he likes the least. Using taunt gets hate, so does curing and doing damage. Losing hate can be done w/ DRG's super and high jumps, or getting hit. THF's level 30 ability lets you pass the hate of the next attack onto another player in the party, which is why THF is so useful. DRK subbing THF can also do this at level 60 (subjob 30), which is why it's a viable sub. Though it doesn't get the insanely high damage boost that THF gets from it, it still passes the hate, which is good enough.

[Aldo]

Otherwise, you'd either just be using WS solo (waste of THF's potential)

stop saying that, it works the other way around too.

[GraveCross]

First of all, I'm under the impression that if you are taunting as a DRK, either something is horribly wrong or your PT sucks, so I think that is a non-issue in not subbing war.

And obviously, it would be better for a real full RDM to be casting all his spells instead of yours, but you don't always have RDMs in your PT. Furthermore, even if you do, you can take some of the load off him. Phalanx, and a few other debuffs/buffs, don't have higher level variants, and thus, as long as you keep your Enfeebling skill good, you won't lose too much from not having a high level RDM.

I don't think you are looking at it the right way. Basicly, what you are telling me is that a DRK/RDM will do less meele damage then a DRK/WAR or a DRK/SAM, this is obvious. What you are trading for that meele damage is utility. You have multiple enfeebling/buff spells, you can heal yourself, and you can do a ton of things a DRK/WAR or DRK/SAM can't do.

No, it's meele is going to be as good, but it will still be very effective. Just because you don't do the most meele damage with your sub hardly means it's a bad combination or not viable.

[Awntawn]

nonono, it's not "Bad," it's "Inefficient"

You already have people to heal you, and you already have people to do stuff, so just stick to doing your job. Only one layer of buffs will fit on you, and the mages' version will be much stronger than yours, so let them do it. Same with debuffs on the monsters. Your little bit of healing power will not benefit the group as much as a significant boost in attack power would.

[GraveCross]

My point is, it isn't really inefficent if used in the correct manner.

Take heals for example, sure, the white mages heals in the group are obviously going to be better. But, you heals aren't for taking care of the group, they are for taking care of yourself. Being able to heal yourself when needed takes a bit of strain off the WHM, and also allows you to back out for a second, heal, then jump back in without relying on your parties healer.

Or lets take your debuffs. Sure, a RDMs are going to be better. However, usually a RDM doesn't cast all their debuffs on the enemy. Coordinating with your RDM can lead to some very effective debuffing. He can cast 2-3 debuffs, and you can cast another 2-3. This is much more mana efficent then the RDM trying to cast all 4-6.

It's not that bad or inefficent, you are trading damage for utility, and taking strain off the mages in your party. Plus, when there is no RDM present, it can be very handy indeed.

[Awntawn]

The thing is, the monsters will take longer to kill, so the monster will be alive and kicking for a longer period of time, and therefore doing more damage, and so more MP will be spent on healing. You're small boost in healing will not make up for the amount lost for the monster staying alive longer. Not to mention that casting spells takes up swing time. DRK is the main "constant damage dealer" (THF and BLM go in bursts). There is usually only one of those classes in each party, if the "constant damage dealer" isn't constantly dealing damage, then what's doing the damage?

Usually the RDM and WHM (or BLM if there is one) divy the debuffs amongst each othere. There's really no space for you to interfere. DRK does get one useful debuff that's second to none, which is bio 2, but you get that on your own without mage sub. The debuffs that a RDM casts are: Slow, Para, Blind, Dia. Split between mages, that's only 2 each, and the effect will last longer if a mage casts it. Also, Dia II is available at higher levels for WHM and RDM, whereas DRK/RDM will still be using dia 1.

If there's no RDM present, the other mages will take care of it. If there's only 2 backliners... yes THAT's when you sub mage. But 2 backliner parties are horrible...

[TeK-DeLorean™]

Gravecross, what it sounds like you want to be is a rdm with more melee power. Try rdm/war, that way your spells are up to date and you get the boost in melee attack power. Drk is built for melee 1st, with a side order of casting. Sure you can do whatever you want, if i was in a pt with friends who didnt care what i was doing i'd love to sub rdm just to cast enthunder on my scythe :sweat:

[coolffxi]

awntawn
i was wandering if i can use your afq and some other meteral u have posted.i am planing on making a ffxi site soon.your info has helped alot of people.Thank you


ps.
can u post on how to be a great drk like u are?pls :sweat:
What are the stats on the Behemoth Mantle?
look here
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...267#post242267

[Wraith]

I think some people are missing out on what Awntawn is saying. Awntawn is refering to optimal and desireable subs for power leveling and boss fights. Parties where the leader is looking for specific class combos to do a job. A party like this is only going to pick up a DRK to fill the constant damage dealer slot. If you are just having fun with friends, soloing, or in a group fighting weak enemies then definitely go for whatever sub you enjoy the most.

[TehTpyoKing]

*bump* crikey some1 sticky this thread.

[AvengerXP]

DRK/THF

I think an Elvaan DRK/THF is a good choice, because not only do i get all the advantages of the thief abilities later on, but i get to ACTUALLY HIT. God damn ive seen so many DRK/WAR missing so much because of low DEX (or AGI, forget which one it is). Even with THF equipped i miss entirely too much. High damage is all fine and good, but getting a hit once in a while in there is also nice. Or am i missing something?