Dancer vs Ninja

[Jei]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

dancer wins

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[Karinya]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

Then should the extra party damage be included to the DNC's damage? I think it should because without him, the other DDs would not have been performing better than normal.

By that methodology, BRD is probably the best DD, in the right party. Even without their 2hr.

ISTM that it's implicit in the concept of "DD comparison" that you're looking at the *direct* damage of the player, or possibly the player + pet, and things like steps, absorbs of defensive stats, Angon, Tomahawk, Warcry, etc. aren't being counted.

Which obviously renders the whole exercise a pointless epeen comparison with little or no relevance to real-world combat situations, in which the relative usefulness of the two jobs depends on a lot of situational factors.

And that's not even counting the difficulty of defining, let alone enforcing, a "similar" level of gear between two different jobs with hardly a single piece of gear in common.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

You forgot someting... Ninjas have at their disposial Shurriken. Nin wins hands down with damage with them.

I can only hope you're not serious; as far as I can tell, at Lv.75, getting a fully upgraded relic katana is a more realistic option to increase damage output than spamming high damage shurikens.

[ShepardG]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

Yeah, here's basically what I'm gonna have to do. And this will be on crap ass merit level mobs, as I'm pretty sure those are the only things I can find to reliable kill. Here's how I'm thinking i'll run the comparison.

Hopefully this should address any questions about the dancer increasing the damage of the other players etc.

3 person party

Brd,rdm/whm,Dnc or Nin

-Brd Singing Double marches only
-RDM buffing party with pro/shell 2, haste only.
-No De-buffs from RDM
-Possible Elegy pulls with the Bard, but not nessecary.
-Healing would be taken care of by the RDM 99% of the time (Dnc would be allowed to self heal if they wanted)

---Dnc can use/do anything in it's arsenal to "Solo" 10 mobs, and NIN does the same.
-No Relic/Mythic weapons involved (as most FFXI players don't have them)
-10 Mamool each, for 3 rounds for a total of 30 Mobs a piece. (Very small test group, but I don't know how long I can get a Bard+Rdm+NIN for. I can bring my redmage mule out but.... meh, i'm hesitant)
- Parses will be compared, Total DMG, Total Time, For each 10, and for Overall will be the deciding Factors.
- If I can't find a NIN willing to help, I'll come on NIN/war, although I have good gear for the job, I haven't played it in a long time, and I'm unfamiliar with the new JA's Innin/Yonnin.)
- Target mobs will be Mamool, will attempt to get 10 of the same Job for both DNC and NIN but time limiting/respawn dependant we will see)
- ???

I'll post my Ideal TP Gear for both DNC and NIN, as well as Ideal WS gear (some things maybe quite hard to get, real gear sets will be posted when the parse get's complete.)

If anyone has any suggestions as to things I could change to make the comparison as fair and biasised along the lines of:
"Which Job does more DMG, DNC or NIN?"
Please help me/us all out, and get some decent info also ^^

I'm currently on Slyph and so If your on Fairy or Slyph and wanna help out, Probably could get all 6 10 mob runs completed in a little under 2hrs.

And as Karyina was hinting at, it's not a very real world scenario, but I think the comparison would be fun ^^ I'm honestly getting more curious by the minute, because I was pretty sure DNC was gonna blow NIN out of the water, but on 2nd glance, I think it's gonna be alot closer than I expected ....

But...

I'm still gonna Run a Jig on that Ninja's ass, FTW!

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

-Healing would be taken care of by the RDM 99% of the time (Dnc would be allowed to self heal if they wanted)

You take away the curing duty which DNCs normally have so they can do more damage, but you don't set it up so NIN can get away from tanking duty and use Innin?

If the NIN can't benefit from Innin, the DNC should have to cure himself.

Do I mean really it would be utterly unfair if the NIN can't benefit from Innin? Yes and no. The point was just that it's really difficult to set up a truly "fair" test, if people can even agree on what would be fair.

* * *

And as Karyina was hinting at, it's not a very real world scenario, but I think the comparison would be fun ^^ I'm honestly getting more curious by the minute, because I was pretty sure DNC was gonna blow NIN out of the water, but on 2nd glance, I think it's gonna be alot closer than I expected ....

It may be fun, but it doesn't seem the result would be useful at all. My inclination is to set the test so they fight the same critters, at the same time, under the same buffs--and fight many, many more critters than just 10.

THF x2, tank, NIN (test subject), DNC (test subject), BRD, RDM (outside party; in alliance) Add another healer outside of the party if needed.

THF x2 to TA+WS the tank, so both the NIN and DNC test subject can stay DD only for as long as possible--and don't have to spend as much time casting Utsusemi.

Fight 200+ merit level monsters. Since both the NIN and DNC test subjects will get the same buffs, fight the same monsters, and have their performance averaged out over 200 targets, the result should be more reliable--and everyone gets some limit points as a reward for performing the experiment.

Then, for the parse, just ignore everyone's DD output except those of the test subjects (NIN and the DNC). Not to say that this test's results will have much more relevance, but at least it should be more trustworthy.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

Another thing to consider is the difference in access to gear both jobs have. Dancer is severely limited in gear options at all levels whereas there's a glut of haste gear alone available to ninja. I sincerely wish S-E would get off their asses and add some of the "new" jobs on to existing gear. I'd like to see my Dancer be able to equip my Byakko's Haidate and really don't understand a reason as to why he shouldn't be able to.

[ShepardG]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

Dancer Haste Gear:

Weapon slot(s): Airy Buckler 1%
Head- Wahlara Turban 5%
Ear-Wyren Earring 5% (Wouldn't use this, just putting it in there, also usable for NIN)
Body- Raparre Harness 4%
Hands- Dusk Gloves 3(4)%
Waist-V.belt 6%
Leg-Etoile Tights 3%
Feet-Dusk +1/Setanta's 3%

that's 25% without Earring, or HQ dusk gloves. 24% if you dual wield, and drop the shield.

I think ninja can hit haste cap pretty easily too, and i'd check real quick but they f'ing blocked ffxiah.com at work...

off the top of my head I can think of 22% (head,waist,hands,feet,legs)
And then theres Dual wield IV

Forgot Innin only works from the back... hmmm. (Dancer also gets ACC and Evasion bonus when facing a Mob with merits, so idunno, shouldn't be too hard to stand with/next to the pally)
I like your idea. I'll see if I can find a paladin to help also, as your test seems pretty fair also.

Few things though:
I might have to shorten the test group, as normally 200 mobs would fly by in a standard Meripo, might take some time with just a Tank,Nin,Dnc and a SATA to begin with. I'll try for 200 though.

[Takelli]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

I can only hope you're not serious; as far as I can tell, at Lv.75, getting a fully upgraded relic katana is a more realistic option to increase damage output than spamming high damage shurikens.

It is part of their arsenal. They get a bunch of RACC, and RADMG gear just from their AF.

It may not be realistic due to the crazy ass prices of them, but its still part of their arsenal.

[ShepardG]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

This is true, they also have the Elemental Wheel, but I'm almost positive I won't be able to find a Ninja that Runs the wheel when they DD. Although, it would be nice to test that also

[Losrase]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

By that methodology, BRD is probably the best DD, in the right party. Even without their 2hr.

ISTM that it's implicit in the concept of "DD comparison" that you're looking at the *direct* damage of the player, or possibly the player + pet, and things like steps, absorbs of defensive stats, Angon, Tomahawk, Warcry, etc. aren't being counted.

Why wouldnt you count those? What you are saying is gimp one job and compare it to another. NINs only have one buff usuable in battle (correct me if I am wrong) and it is used for damage mitigation. DNCs have a lot of buffs/debuffs that benefit themselves and the party.

When you compare two jobs, you compare all their abilities and not one aspect of a job. If you read the beginning of this thread, you will see they are comparing more than just direct damage.

---------- Post added at 09:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 AM ----------

This is true, they also have the Elemental Wheel, but I'm almost positive I won't be able to find a Ninja that Runs the wheel when they DD. Although, it would be nice to test that also

Wouldnt the Elemental Wheel decrease a NINs damage because of casting time? Then again I never seen a NIN use Elemental Wheel using Ni spells.

[Mezlo]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

Why wouldnt you count those? What you are saying is gimp one job and compare it to another. NINs only have one buff usuable in battle (correct me if I am wrong) and it is used for damage mitigation. DNCs have a lot of buffs/debuffs that benefit themselves and the party.

When you compare two jobs, you compare all their abilities and not one aspect of a job. If you read the beginning of this thread, you will see they are comparing more than just direct damage.

---------- Post added at 09:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 AM ----------



Wouldnt the Elemental Wheel decrease a NINs damage because of casting time? Then again I never seen a NIN use Elemental Wheel using Ni spells.

Again, this is strictly a DD comparison. Which job will deal more damage over time, nin or dnc?

[ShepardG]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

Why wouldnt you count those? What you are saying is gimp one job and compare it to another. NINs only have one buff usuable in battle (correct me if I am wrong) and it is used for damage mitigation. DNCs have a lot of buffs/debuffs that benefit themselves and the party.

When you compare two jobs, you compare all their abilities and not one aspect of a job. If you read the beginning of this thread, you will see they are comparing more than just direct damage.

Nah, you have a valid point Losrase, but I was strictly speaking about dishing out damage.
Which was why I had the initial test as just a three person party, as alot of the Dancers Buffs are going to benfit the NIN also, when parsed side by side, but after further consideration, that's fine as it provides for a bit more realistic scenario.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

Another thing to consider is the difference in access to gear both jobs have. Dancer is severely limited in gear options at all levels whereas there's a glut of haste gear alone available to ninja. I sincerely wish S-E would get off their asses and add some of the "new" jobs on to existing gear. I'd like to see my Dancer be able to equip my Byakko's Haidate and really don't understand a reason as to why he shouldn't be able to.

Haste Samba.....

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

It is part of their arsenal. They get a bunch of RACC, and RADMG gear just from their AF.

It may not be realistic due to the crazy ass prices of them, but its still part of their arsenal.

Go buy 10 stacks of Koga Shuriken, then. Until you achieve that, I'll be blunt: it's an idiotic idea.

Forgot Innin only works from the back... hmmm. (Dancer also gets ACC and Evasion bonus when facing a Mob with merits, so idunno, shouldn't be too hard to stand with/next to the pally)
I like your idea. I'll see if I can find a paladin to help also, as your test seems pretty fair also.

PLD won't be able to hold off well geared DDs for long in a merit party, though it may be different with two TA+WS per fight. Still, you're probably better off using another NIN as tank. (I say that as a PLD75, by the way, with a fairly large collection of decent DD gear.)

\I might have to shorten the test group, as normally 200 mobs would fly by in a standard Meripo, might take some time with just a Tank,Nin,Dnc and a SATA to begin with. I'll try for 200 though.

No SATA; TA+WS is fine with the Assassin trait. Can switch to SAM/THF if damage output is a concern; fights shouldn't be over 30 seconds on average with at least two decked out DDs (the NIN and the DNC), IMO.

[Takelli]

Re: Dancer vs Ninja

Go buy 10 stacks of Koga Shuriken, then. Until you achieve that, I'll be blunt: it's an idiotic idea.

Yes, I know its way too damned expensive. If they where to have NPCs sell them for a decent price, then people might actually use them though. Surprised SE hasn't yet though...