A little encouragement

[ItazuraNhomango]

I know there's a great deal of bias and/or ignorance about what DNC75 can do for parties and alliances in situations ranging from merit parties to "endgame". Just want to encourage DNC players not to give up with my experience merit partying with DNC last night:

Had a Greater Colibri merit party last night: DNC, WHM, NIN, WAR, DRG, BRD (me).

Optimal setup? Nah. Killing faster than I can pull? Yes.

Even though the WHM forgot to use Dia II the entire time? Yeah. (Guess March x2 + Haste + Haste Samba is that good! The DNC also used Box Step/Quickstep to sweeten the deal.) I ended up not even bothering to Lullaby most of the time.

The NIN and DNC were on wrong food, to boot; the DNC was experimenting with pizza, and the birds wouldn't cooperate with food stealing, so was stuck. Don't think the NIN was used to BRD sticking to March only w/out giving him Madrigal, so probably that's why didn't have crab sushi.

Very, very, safe, too; no one was ever in red HP, and the WHM's MP never dipped below 800 thanks to curing power of DNC. The DNC out cured WHM about 11.2:1 in direct HP recovery--that's right, more than 11 times the WHM's output, despite using the wrong food and ending up with a 77% melee accuracy.

~17.7k/hour base exp. That's with me d/c'ed 3-4 times in less than hour and half.

I can definitely live with a "non-optimal" setup that produces decent exp/hour and packs incredible curing power to ensure the safety for all party members. I'll happily take a good DNC in future merit parties, that's for sure.

* * *

Going to ask a DNC to co-tank Gotoh Zha the Redolent tonight with my PLD; this should be fun.

[Rothy]

Re: A little encouragement

Could you list what kind of gear the DNC had on? (I don't really know anything about their gear) but this seems really impressive. Hopefully more people will try invite DNC more often. (Doubt it though)

[Kailea]

Re: A little encouragement

Dancer with Haste samba merited to atleast 3 is awsome, and food on birds? your NIN and DNC where crazy just for that ;p

a DNC can stack ACC like crazy, so by the time they hit 75, they really dont need ACC food.

[Firewind]

Re: A little encouragement

I like having a DNC around on WHM. Drain Samba II combined with Regen merits, /SCH and Solace = I save a TON of MP in the long run. And that is before you factor in Noble's, D. Arts Aspirs, Sanction and whatever refresh I'm getting from the RDM/BRD/COR.

[Lmnop]

Re: A little encouragement

I don't get why people always say DNC is worthless in end game because their waltzes/sambas only affect their party instead of full alliance.

While it'd be nice to cure people outside of party, I'm glad the sambas only affect 1 party. And the steps? If the wiki's right, -13% defense to a mob? That's like a free Minuet 4 for the entire ally. Half a bard for all melee, a good enough healer for a DD party (especially with a brd/whm), and some extra damage besides.

Honestly, this playerbase is pretty silly sometimes.

[Empedocles]

Re: A little encouragement

Just a bit of Devil's Advocate but mainly curious....

Were the WHM and the DNC competing for keeping party HP up >90%, or was the WHM only keeping a Regen/Haste cycle and throwing out the occasional big cure if someone dropped too low?
-That may account for the 11.2:1 direct-cure ratio... and the assloads of MP to spare.

Was the DNC using Weaponskills at all? (I think it this is very likely that they were, but making sure...)

I know this is probably not possible, but do you have any data on the DNC's damage output?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: A little encouragement

I know there's a great deal of bias and/or ignorance about what DNC75 can do for parties and alliances in situations ranging from merit parties to "endgame". Just want to encourage DNC players not to give up with my experience merit partying with DNC last night:

The "bias and/or ingnorance" isn't such at all, DNC just isn't well-equipped for alliance play, endgame, BCNMs, assaults or even missions.

It problems are essentially a hybrid of BLU, BST, PUP and THF endgame problems.

THF problem: All your best job assets can be subbed. Say what you want about Haste Samba, but its outmatched by by what BRD, WHM and RDM offer. SAM can become a sufficient backup healer with /DNC subbed thanks to its main job traits and abilties. COR can take the steps from DNC and use them to extend the advanatage of accuracy and attack buffs they already have. BRD could too if they had the time to melee

THF problem 2: We don't value some of the things you have and you don't either. Hi2u Stutter Step. We'd use you if BLMs were around... maybe... if we felt like it. Fact is you don't use it when BLMs are around, though. Some THFs act like traits like Accomplice don't even exist yet get frustrated when someone won't let them SATA them.

THF problem 3: You think you're about damage all the time. You're not about damage all the time. You're also about debuffing and healing. Sounds familar to most RDMs who want to melee, but THFs are also kings of enmity manipulation. Its a big part of the job, just as much as stealing things or stabbing things in the back.

BLU, BST and PUP problem: We don't want you "feeding the mob TP." Yeah, that superstitious and cowardly stuff. You might have a chance to shine if we could set aside these superstitions we had or actually read about how each mob gets TP, but fuck knowledge, its just easier to leave you out. If you haven't picked up on it yet, this is a community thinking problem.

Still, the fact remains that in big HNM or Boss fights, it hard to contribute if they really can't let you touch the mob at all. Pets and BLU magic can't do their thing without contact and its the same issue for DNC. No Foot Rise, Reverse Flourish and Meditate can only go so far. That is, if DNCs considered SAM more seriously, which they don't. /NIN, /NIN, /NIN everwhere we go.

Finally. Everyone and their grandmother leveled it. That gives you a lot of competition in endgame and PTs. Sure, "we can solo" but that facet drops off dramatically in the 40s. You're like RDM, its more like you're bullshitting the mob to death than soloing it. BLUs, BSTs, PUPs and other jobs that can solo eventually pass you by and outchain you.

DNC feels like it was born to Campaign and little else, really.

SE tried with this job, they really did, its just the design of the game outside of Campaign and early EXP levels tends to thwart it in places the community doesn't already.

Even for myself there are situations where I just will have to turn down a DNC. Missions, normal assaults, BCNMs - they just slow groups down while looking pretty.

[Armando]

Re: A little encouragement

BLU, BST and PUP problem: We don't want you "feeding the mob TP." Yeah, that superstitious and cowardly stuff. You might have a chance to shine if we could set aside these superstitions we had or actually read about how each mob gets TP, but fuck knowledge, its just easier to leave you out. If you haven't picked up on it yet, this is a community thinking problem.

Which superstition is at work here? It's a fact that having 12 people smacking a mob instead of 10 will cause the mob to get roughly 20% more TP over time and thus use TP roughly 20% faster.

I'm pretty sure the Dev Team went braindead when they were designing how mobs should use their special skills. Mob TP gain is probably the most poorly thought-out aspect of our combat system.

[Takelli]

Re: A little encouragement

I actually do like having a dancer in a party. If I can't find a bard, I go looking for a Dancer. Haste Samba, and Drain Samba works wonders when use in conjuction with each other. The Dancer can even self Skill Chain, allowing a Rdm, or Blm to MB off them, or even open a Skill Chain for a Sam then the Sam Self Skill Chains twice, then the Dnc ends the Skill chain, then teh Blm and Rdm MB the Mob, and then... Mob = dead! So... 3 Skill Chains+2 High Damaging Mbs? I think Dnc has more uses than people say it does.

Then, they even get Curing Waltzes. Hell, those save Mages TONS of MP in the long run. If I am low on Mp, and the Dnc has lots of Tp on them, the Dnc will main heal for me until I can get back up and start healing again.

They can even help with Refresh. Apsir Samba with melee magic users? Hell yea! Against Colibri. If My mp cant support refresh all areound, they just put up Aspir Samba, and problem Fixed.

They even can DESTROY a mobs Eva, and Defense as well. People having issues hitting the mob? No probloem, stick a dancer with them, and problem solved.

Dancers can be better than Bards if played correctly. They can contribute to damage, they can help parties with their Acc, increase their damage put put, help a healer with Mp, Help the party with Mp as well, haste the entire Party, Do a Self Skill Chain, and even skill chain with a Sam, and even to further that Skill chain, add a Blu into the Mix.

I think that Dancer has TONS of end game possiblities, just that no one looks at the job, and sees what they can do.

[Aksannyi]

Re: A little encouragement

Which superstition is at work here? It's a fact that having 12 people smacking a mob instead of 10 will cause the mob to get roughly 20% more TP over time and thus use TP roughly 20% faster.

I'm pretty sure the Dev Team went braindead when they were designing how mobs should use their special skills. Mob TP gain is probably the most poorly thought-out aspect of our combat system.

This is what Auspice is for then. Even when I'm in the tank party on Faffy, I still throw up Auspice fulltime. A lot of people forget this spell exists, and they would see our linkshell throwing melees on some things and not dying, and wondering why they could go in with the same setup and get rocked. It's not just Auspice but also knowing when to pull back (Faffy getting wing happy? Stop damage a bit.) But seriously Auspice has really nullified this argument, it's a really nice reduction in the amount of TP a mob gets. Really noticeable in Salvage, too.

Giving the mob TP is an outdated argument, as outdated as Blueberry PLDs.

[Armando]

Re: A little encouragement

Am I missing something here? I thought Auspice is only 10% Subtle Blow. I mean, it's great, but it's also not going to make 10 melees give the TP of only 6. At best 9.

Anyway the point wasn't so much that the community is really stupid about mob TP, because it is, and the both of you are right on that one, just that I'm not sure what the superstition is here. Throwing one more person into a fight does speed up the mob's TP usage regardless of how poor or great the person's damage is, and that's horrible design.

[Ketaru]

Re: A little encouragement

This is what Auspice is for then. Even when I'm in the tank party on Faffy, I still throw up Auspice fulltime. A lot of people forget this spell exists, and they would see our linkshell throwing melees on some things and not dying, and wondering why they could go in with the same setup and get rocked. It's not just Auspice but also knowing when to pull back (Faffy getting wing happy? Stop damage a bit.) But seriously Auspice has really nullified this argument, it's a really nice reduction in the amount of TP a mob gets. Really noticeable in Salvage, too.

Giving the mob TP is an outdated argument, as outdated as Blueberry PLDs.

Unfortunately, that courtesy does not extend as fully to BSTs and PUPs, which were the topic of TP feeding. People can boohoo about how it would be overpowered if their pets received the same benefits that the owner can. But until somebody can produce numbers about how they suddenly became top tier damage dealers as a result (oh wait, there's not way to), it's still a real damn shame our pets can be Slowed or Blinded or inflicted with Attack Down, but they can't be given Haste, +Acc (especially since until recently where you effectively fork over $10 for gear, +pet stats with good +owner stats were far and few in between), or Minuet, even if it were tailored so that the pet only receives half the bonus. Even DRG can confer some of their bonuses to their wyverns, but that is slightly wasted on them because the DRG produces most of the damage anyway.

[Aksannyi]

Re: A little encouragement

Am I missing something here? I thought Auspice is only 10% Subtle Blow. I mean, it's great, but it's also not going to make 10 melees give the TP of only 6. At best 9.

I realize that. I'm just saying that the differences in mob TP usage are noticeable, and that more than anything, a lot of WHMs forget the spell exists, which is a shame. It does make some TP happy mobs a bit easier. I just think a lot of people need to get over the "feeding mobs TP" shit, when you can have a leader say in LS in BIG ALL CAPS to "STOP DAMAGE" and as long as people listen, everything is good. You can also have things in place such as Auspice or Monk's roll (I think? Don't know everything about COR) to further reduce it. Feeding mobs TP is just a cop out argument against a lot of classes meleeing.

---------- Post added at 02:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 PM ----------

That said, I liked having DNC in my merit parties. They use daggers, so piercing bonus (win) and they help cure oftentimes, which reduces downtime. Even Drain Samba helps the healer. Unfortunately I've never seen DNC used at endgame anywhere else, except as a subjob. And even then, it shines.

SE said the wanted DNC to be another SJ option, didn't they? I guess for them to add some new ability past sub level to make DNCs more valuable at endgame isn't too much of a stretch in the future.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: A little encouragement

Could you list what kind of gear the DNC had on?

Sorry, don't really know what was used except visible gears were artifact and relic. I don't usually check gears; just not in the habit.

I like having a DNC around on WHM. Drain Samba II combined with Regen merits, /SCH and Solace = I save a TON of MP in the long run.

If merit party, you want Haste Samba. Trust me.

Were the WHM and the DNC competing for keeping party HP up >90%, or was the WHM only keeping a Regen/Haste cycle and throwing out the occasional big cure if someone dropped too low?

Think pretty early on it was established the DNC was just faster at curing, so the WHM just Haste and Regen for the most part. He was also keeping an eye on Protect timer; recasted Protectra V every time before it dropped.

Basically, there was no need for the WHM to cure much. Guess I could have asked the DNC to WS more and WHM to pick up the load, but as it was I could barely kept up with bird pulling, so killing faster wasn't too appealing.

Haste Samba, and Drain Samba works wonders when use in conjuction with each other.

Think only one Samba (Daze on target) can be in effect at a time.

That said, I liked having DNC in my merit parties. They use daggers, so piercing bonus (win) and they help cure oftentimes, which reduces downtime. Even Drain Samba helps the healer.

What down time, with DNC handling 90%+ of the curing? And, seriously, Drain Samba in merit party? No thanks.

[Aksannyi]

Re: A little encouragement

I merited with one only one time and it was quite a while ago. I couldn't even begin to tell you what DNCs actually do. So forgive me for that one, if that's not correct, but Drain Samba it seems would help the healer, however insignificantly that may be.

And as for downtime, yeah. No such thing in merit party, but anytime I have someone in meripo to help me on cures on RDM, I'm grateful.