DNC Merit Speculation

[LilithAngel]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

That was pretty much the point I was trying to make. Breaking 300% would give us more dances, true, but reducing the TP costs (even if only by chance) makes it easier overall for a Dancer to do her thing. Having both as meritable traits would be pretty good, and in line with the amount of power both would give at 75. They'd give Dancer a lot more to work with.

[Karinya]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

But effectively Samba *does* have a casting time, because the animation is so damn long. There's no casting bar, it can't be interrupted, and I don't know how it interacts with your swing timer, but you can't move or activate other abilities while you're "casting" your Samba.

[Malacite]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

Not true >. >

I've always been able to Quickstep right after activating a Samba. Just spam the button XD

[VZX]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

Yeah, samba animation is so damn long that it may lock your character movement, but no... you're not stunned or something,

After 1 JA activation you can go to JA menu and activate another before the previous' animation ends

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

Problem for endgame dancers is that there are situations where TPing a mob isn't always an option. Like Kirin, your only real hope there is to have /SAM for Meditate or get shoved aside for WHM and RDM. But even Meditate may not be enough for that situation

Merits have a twofold purpose (1) being customization/preference and (2) being enhancing your role at endgame.

DNC doesn't have much problem with TP in EXP, Merit and I don't forsee a problem in Dynamis, Limbus (sans slashing weapon immune mobs), Nyzul or Salvage. Where DNC is going to hurt is things like HNM, BC/KSNM, Wyrms and Gods. Sometimes there isn't a mob nearby to TP on, some mobs shouldn't be TP any more than whats neccesary.

So we can max thier TP cap or we could lower TP cost for dances, but neither really get around the matter of lacking a place to get TP. /SAM won't always be the best subjob pick to address this matter. You can't do steps to build finishing moves without TP to start with, so that limits Reverse Flourish, too. There's the possibility of gaining support from CORs and SAMs via thier TP enhancing or transfer abilities, but its also not always an option, either.

I'm thinking something more along the lines of Devotion or Chivalry would be more appropriate for Dancer, perhaps at the expense of a signifigant amount of HP or a consumable item to stay fueled on TP when needed.

So DNC needs something to aid thier endgame endurance, I don't think thier EXP endurance is as much of an issue as much as thier lack of viablity in certain areas.

[Lmnop]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

Gain 1 tp when you miss a melee attack (or hit for 0). Further merits increase to 1.5 and 2 tp.

How overpowered would that be?

[VZX]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

Problem for endgame dancers is that there are situations where TPing a mob isn't always an option. Like Kirin, your only real hope there is to have /SAM for Meditate or get shoved aside for WHM and RDM. But even Meditate may not be enough for that situation

It's been a long since I fought Kirin, but so far Kirin actions are just:
1. Spell casting
2. Warping around the room
3. TP move

I never recall Kirin use normal move. I can recall I got tail swing 3x consecutively though.

TP problem comes when you fight Grand Wyrms most of the time

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

Kirin TPs at will, what I meant was in most cases that Kirin is either difficult to TP on or burned to the point where TPing for cures doesn't have much of a point. Additionally, he's in an area where you can't really gain TP before the fight.

For other Gods, TPing would have to take place outside of thier arenas. I don't know how well a DNC can get TP after the fights start, though. I see some difficulty on Byakko after that. Same thing with Kings. You do have some stuff to TP on out there, but how well you TP depends on how your LS plans to take the HNM down. If its kiting, you're pretty much screwed.

Wyrms, as you've said, you kinda want to shy away from TPing.

Other endgame content I see DNC faring just as well as any job could.

Meditate and Trance are really the only ways to pull TP out of thin air for DNC, that is, unless you want to carry and Opo Necklace and Sleep potions with you for the sidelines and TP regain. Its not totally impractical, but when cures are needed the last thing you want is your healer chugging Nyquil, ya know?

[Malacite]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

o. O that'd be awesome, give them Convert for TP

But at what rate? 1 HP : 1 TP or more HP ?

[Karinya]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

Kirin TPs at will, what I meant was in most cases that Kirin is either difficult to TP on or burned to the point where TPing for cures doesn't have much of a point. Additionally, he's in an area where you can't really gain TP before the fight.

Well, not by hitting things. There are other ways to get TP (even without a DNC merit that gives TP or something similar).

For other Gods, TPing would have to take place outside of thier arenas. I don't know how well a DNC can get TP after the fights start, though. I see some difficulty on Byakko after that. Same thing with Kings. You do have some stuff to TP on out there, but how well you TP depends on how your LS plans to take the HNM down. If its kiting, you're pretty much screwed.

No more so than any other DD who is wasting valuable space in the alliance unless they're ready to WS and make room for the next guy. You could lead a party that beats down the local mobs, keeping other DD healthy as they rotate in, fight for TP, and drop out to rejoin the main alliance and WS the HNM. (Except at fights where there aren't any local mobs. Then you're stuck with the meditate or sleep potion options, or begging for Shikikoyo.)

It's partly a kiting issue and partly a claim issue - which is why it's much less of an issue in no-claim areas like Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, Assault and Einherjar. HNMs that pop in normal zones aren't the whole endgame. If DNC are less effective in a few fights, you can come as another job or just don't do those fights.

Wyrms, as you've said, you kinda want to shy away from TPing.
Other endgame content I see DNC faring just as well as any job could.
Meditate and Trance are really the only ways to pull TP out of thin air for DNC, that is, unless you want to carry and Opo Necklace and Sleep potions with you for the sidelines and TP regain. Its not totally impractical, but when cures are needed the last thing you want is your healer chugging Nyquil, ya know?

Well, I doubt DNC is going to be the *main* healer at any of those fights. They might provide some backup healing, but seriously, let the WHMs do their jobs.


Unfortunately there isn't much that DNC can uniquely provide to an HNM fight. Tanks are probably not swinging to benefit from Drain Samba and wouldn't get enough to matter if they did. Mages, Aspir Samba, ditto. Steps are OK, especially if they stack with other endgame debuffs like Dia III, Angon or Feint, but they're hardly compelling. And since it's not that easy to recover TP, curing can probably be done better by the MP-based healers.

This is not to say that a DNC can't find *something* useful to do - but they probably won't have any dramatic impact on the fight. In a fight where most melees are meleeing they could provide Haste or Drain Sambas cheaply and keep a melee DD party alive without needing attention from MP healers, but 18/40 person fights (where 40 show up, 18 can have claim at once) against level 90+ mobs just play to DNC's weaknesses, no two ways about it.

[Lmnop]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

I think DD party is an excellent place for a Dancer. Maybe we're a bit backwards? But our LS still just nukes the shit out of Kirin with 2-5 melee DDs chasing behind, occasionally stopping for SATAWS. Divine waltz (I think? Curaga one) would be great when something goes wrong and we eat a -ga. And of course, just applying steps non-stop and haste samba when we're healthy.

As for steps: It's worth mentioning the last of them: the -magic defense. This could prove invaluable for BLM-heavy strategies.

[LilithAngel]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

Well, one thing I've noticed people have forgotten (or simply not noticed), is the Dancer's multiple layers of Subtle Blow traits that have been revealed in the OnlineD interview. That might be a nod from SE that they realize that since the job requires TP to function, and some fights do not really allow most melee jobs to TP on other targets besides the main one, that they want to move it to the front lines for most everything the player base could reasonably do so (that is, anywhere the DNC could be expected to survive while being on the front lines).

Since SE recognizes (at least, it seems that way form the design of the job) that attacking the mob, giving it TP in the process, is a strategy that's not often utilized by a significant number of LSs, giving this job the ability to do so with less of a consequence (along the same lines as Monk and Ninja), may actually let LSs give Dancers a spot on the line. Gear choices would have to take advantage of this trait, of course, but it would mean that Dancer at least has a viable reason to be up front, swinging away, and can allay fears of "feeding the mob TP" by pointing out the fact that it specifically has a trait to prevent that from happening (to a degree), similar to Monk and Ninja. How and where it goes from there, would be up to the individuals and LS strategies involved.

I could very well see Dancer fit comfortably in quite a few instances where other front line melee wouldn't be, providing support to those that are, or, as others mentioned, supporting the backup/alternate pool of melee/CC teams.

Also, RE Steps: they would require the Dancer to remain on the mob, swinging away, for them to remain in effect, not to mention effective, for the Dancer needs to be in place to monitor and maintain the steps, and to do that, they'll need TP, and since they need to remain in place indefinately for the duration of the need for the step, guess what they'll need to TP on...

[Malacite]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

Now if only Subtle worked without having to pile on loads of it.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

On the topic of Subtle Blow, I've bothered to calculate how much Store TP equals how much Subtle Blow. As in, if you were to fight yourself, the amount of Subtle Blow you would need to cancel out how much Store TP you would need (because it's not actually a 1:1 ratio; close, but decimals don't work that way). The values I got are:

0% Store TP : 0% Subtle Blow
25% Store TP : 20% Subtle Blow
100% Store TP : 50% Subtle Blow

The first and last are extremes, assuming the fact that Subtle Blow caps at 50% is true (50% halves enemy TP gain and 100% Store TP, if possible, doubles your own). The middle one came through some weird factoring/multiplication, but I believe my math was sound in finding it. Through the same factoring/multiplication (and the fact that Subtle Blow caps at 50%), I also noted those were the only possible three values that worked in this particular instance.

Anyways, pretty useless, I know, but I was bored, and wanted to share something that piqued my curiosity some time ago.

[Malacite]

Re: DNC Merit Speculation

Store TP +100 is indeed very much possible.

SAM roll can now do +50 on an 11, as well as SAM's 4 native traits (totaling +25) and misc gear and merits.

The cap should be around 120 now I think, give or take. (which would give you 25 TP a swing...)