Dancer issues thus far

[Lmnop]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

- Just like COR's Phantom Rolls did initially, DNC's cures can lock up and prevent other player's movement. Pretty sure SE will take care of this one soon.

Magic and Bard Songs do this. Basically, any effect one player can perform on another will cause this glitch. It's been in the game for years, I'd doubt they'll fix it now (it's one of the biggest reasons I quit THF, actually. I seemed to have had a lot of SATA WSs come out as SATA normal swings + 30 damage WSs because of this glitch.).

Give DNC a special form of Auto-Regain. It stops @20-25 tp. Or the upper cap could be based off of level (either directly level based or in installments of multiple traits). So level 30 DNC could have auto-Regain that tops off @10 tp (10 extra tp every 30 seconds seems like it'd be mostly worthless to most jobs... /shrug), 20 tp @50, and 30 @70. It's an idea, but I don't think it's really needed. This is basically a Gaudy harness for DNC, which would probably be a better idea (just putting it on gear instead of traits).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

And that's why I was suggesting that you use the ability that lets you do as many dances as you want for free, right at the start of the BCNM, and then later when you need TP, you have some.

Any BCNM strategy where a two hour ablity is the make-or-break is a poor BCNM strategy. So your solution is to blow thier two hour, which they may need in an emergency and cripple them if multiple runs are needed. That they'll have to pester every COR on the server to reset the two hour.

I think the Icarus Wing penalty being removed when exiting the BCNM would have been more appropriate solution. The penality is too steep to start with. Two hour penalty for using one is ridiculous.

I don't think it's necessary to borrow trouble like this. They don't even have their AF yet and you're worrying about what will they do at endgame?

There are already Dancers at 75. People are this depraved, but at the very least thier feedback and failures with the job will teach others. Many I've seen just rushed 75 as /MNK or /NIN thus far. Once they see they can't gain TP they same, they'll look to SAM.

It seems to me that all endgame LS would love to have CORs if they could find some, and BLUs are limited mainly by their DD ONRY mindset. BLUs that accept that their job at endgame might be more useful doing something *other* than spamming Frenetic Rip seem pretty welcome to me. (The scarcity of those jobs in *Dynamis* and *Limbus* is obvious: that content has nothing to offer them. But that hardly generalizes to endgame as a whole.)

Doesn't change the fact that when an endgame LS does have a COR, they fail - just as they fail with BRD - to apply it as anything other than a manabattery for the mages. While COR has the edge on BRD with mage support and I'd prefer one with the mages over a BRD, we do have other buffs and they're damn good ones. But I more often find myself surrounded my robed tarus than frontliners and if I ever find a BRD with us, I will make it know to a leader or sack the BRD would be better off playing to thier strengths - melee buffs.

Dynamis may have nothing to offer the ToA jobs - something SE is probably waiting to address to get SCH and DNC relic out alongside it - but Limbus does and ANY BLU that complains about Limbus having nothing for them should be slapped repeatedly. BLU gets both sea sets off Proto-Ultima and Omega. I'd say that makes up for any lack of AF+1. Whats many of the Limbus accessories are useful to BLU as well.

That said, Limbus accessories also give options to BLU and PUP, but most of the accessories weren't great for RNGs to start with, so COR would also suffer from that as a result. Well, unless you're the /WHM onry COR, then Loqacious might do something for you while the other gear just looks wasted on you. Some of the accessories look to work out well for DNC and SCH though. I guess how useful Brutal would be depends on how well DNC can make use of Joyeuse vs Daggers in Dynamis and Limbus situations. COR's adept enough with sword that Brutal is kinda pointless if you have the Joytoy.

PUP gets hurt hard by the mechanics of fighting super-high-level enemies, as both the master and puppet suffer excessively from having below-A-ranked skills - and PUP has no clear group role they excel in in the first place. I don't know how to fix that (and clearly neither does SE, since BST has had the same problem since forever),

.

Maybe you're just showing how slow endgame is to adapt these roles properly. PUP has healer potential, access to MAGE GEAR (access from Day One, and people still don't take the hint). You can't chastize BLUs for being inflexible in one breath and the roll your eyes at SE for PUPs not being great melees the next - they weren't intended to be great at melee, they were giving mage gear for a reason - blame the players that refuse to do anything but melee with it.

That said, any job with a portable Cure V/Regen III bot has to have something they can do in endgame or thier melees are just too timid to let them try it. More PUPs are starting to take up /WHM, at last, to fill the gaps in the automations spell list. They have a role, most of them just refuse to accept their place as mage/support in part of this game.

BST gets God Gear, they're intended to share DD with thier pet. Now they have the ability to dump hate on thier pets at will. THF or /THF could pin hate on them, then BST can Snarl and move all that hate to the pet. Decoy tactics, anyone? Maybe not great for HNMs, but workable for gods, Dynamis, Limbus and other areas, I'd say.

To sum up, DNC's options for circumventing one of the major design features of their job (and the limitations on doing so):
* Items. (Opo necklace, i-wing) Level and/or reuse time restrictions.
* /SAM. 60+.
* 2hour. Recast timer.
* Something we don't know about (AF, DNC merits, etc.)

All the solutions are high level or high-penalty ones at present. There needs to be a small, low end solution or we've got another job crippled by level caps. SE did a great job in making ToA jobs well-suited for CoPs - though PUP took a while - but so far I'd give SCH the edge on CoPs.

[Lmnop]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

As for PUP, they have a faster TP gain than /DNC because they use hand-to-hand weapons therefore making a good candidate for PUP/DNC in a more supporting role than they were previously able to do--support without the need to rest.

Minor nitpick... Hand-to-Hand doesn't gain tp faster than any other weapon. Though I could be simply misreading this sentence in which case, carry on.

[Sabaron]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

Minor nitpick... Hand-to-Hand doesn't gain tp faster than any other weapon. Though I could be simply misreading this sentence in which case, carry on.

Then why has everyone been raving about using them with DNC to get faster TP? Are they all retards (and therefore I also a retard for listening to them)?

[Silent Howler]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

Then why has everyone been raving about using them with DNC to get faster TP? Are they all retards (and therefore I also a retard for listening to them)?

Perhaps it has to do with the accuracy bonus, but x/DNC won't get that until lvl 60.

[Lmnop]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

It has everything to do with low accuracy gap (since skills are relatively the same at those levels) plus high DPS on HtH weapons. In all frankness, I think most people using dnc/mnk aren't really sure of its merits. Daggers really don't hit for 0 damage often or at all... just really small numbers. I can't really comment one way or the other as to the ability to /mnk but I'm for sure of one thing: it will not devastate the performance of other subs. Like Blm/smn vs Blm/whm: /smn's INT boost isn't going to make the damage difference groundbreaking.

[Armando]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

Yeah, they're all "retards" if they think they get TP faster with H2H as opposed to Daggers. MNK isn't bad, but most people picking /MNK do so blindly, so a lot of the times their justifications for doing so are off.

[Karinya]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

Then why has everyone been raving about using them with DNC to get faster TP? Are they all retards (and therefore I also a retard for listening to them)?

Yes (or at least ignorant). DNC/MNK will do *slightly* more DoT with normal hits, but they won't get TP any faster than a DNC/whatever dagger user (actually slightly slower, but the difference normally won't be noticeable). And their samba is actually *more* likely to fall off if they miss a couple times.

Any BCNM strategy where a two hour ablity is the make-or-break is a poor BCNM strategy.

Well, thanks for letting me know I beat Maat, Fenrir, Diabolos, Snoll Tzar, Tenzen, Divine Might, several of the Promyvions and many other fights with bad strategies, then. (And Dynamis Lord, but he's not a BCNM.) Oh, and that strategy that I used for the SMN20 solo avatars? Terrible. I not only relied on my 2hr, it was practically the whole strategy. WTF was I thinking?!

I could have sworn strategies that got you the win were normally considered *good*.

Sure, for *loot* BCNMs, it's better to be able to go right back in for another run. (For those you can easily have a MP-using job cover the first 30 seconds while you build TP.)

But for *hard* BCNMs, very often you're not going to stand a chance without several and possibly even most people 2houring. Yes, this makes re-attempts a bit inconvenient. So come prepared and don't screw up the first time.

Any *mission* BCNM where you can win with no 2hours is too easy (or you're overleveled for it, in the case of uncapped ones not designed for 75s). They exist to be used.

[Sabaron]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

...Well, thanks for letting me know I beat Maat, Fenrir, Diabolos, Snoll Tzar, Tenzen, Divine Might, several of the Promyvions and many other fights with bad strategies, then. (And Dynamis Lord, but he's not a BCNM.) Oh, and that strategy that I used for the SMN20 solo avatars? Terrible. I not only relied on my 2hr, it was practically the whole strategy. WTF was I thinking?!
...

I figuratively fell off my chair... Oh man... I like that. One official LOL.

[Ameroth]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

Note: was lazy and didn't read many of the other posts.


My thoughts on DNC so far are pretty promising. So far, I've had two parties on my DRK without any mage, and just a NIN tank.

Had an all JP party (lvl50) (except myself) other day that was SCH, DNC, DRK, BRD, NIN, MNK in Kuftal and we seriously never took a break to rest MP/HP for the entire 2.5hr period. We were averaging about 7-8k exp an hour, and it was great.

So far, I'm quite impressed with the new opportunities opened up with DNC and SCH.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

Well, thanks for letting me know I beat Maat, Fenrir, Diabolos, Snoll Tzar, Tenzen, Divine Might, several of the Promyvions and many other fights with bad strategies, then. (And Dynamis Lord, but he's not a BCNM.) Oh, and that strategy that I used for the SMN20 solo avatars? Terrible. I not only relied on my 2hr, it was practically the whole strategy. WTF was I thinking?!

"Let's get SMNs and BLMs to burn it!"

Probably.

Barring Maat and Dynamis Lord, its the way a lot of people have done CoPs. I'm proud to say I haven't seen a SMN since the first promy.

But for *hard* BCNMs, very often you're not going to stand a chance without several and possibly even most people 2houring. Yes, this makes re-attempts a bit inconvenient. So come prepared and don't screw up the first time.

Any *mission* BCNM where you can win with no 2hours is too easy (or you're overleveled for it, in the case of uncapped ones not designed for 75s). They exist to be used.

This is far too lofty an ideal to expect. I've run CoPs and BCNM runs numerous times and know some people just get nervous in BCNMs. This is why I don't advise the use of two hours unless they are absolutely needed, especially in the case of multiple runs. A cool head will win BCs more often than a two hour will.

You can beat Ouryu and and Mammets without the two hours. You could beat Tenzen and Snoll pre-2007 CoP updates without the two hour. Does this make them "too easy?" I don't think it does.

Maat can be beaten without the two hour depending on your job. I soooo wanted to EES him, but a Slug Shot, a barrage and another slug shot put him down. I can garuntee you that popping Wild Card on Qultada is not a sure thing. Oh and Call Wyvern pulled the win for DRGs back in the day, did it not? They're not all awesome abilities. I'm definately not going to ride on PUP or THF's two hour for a win, I have to think of directing my allies in a different way.

Any challenging BCNM can beaten without relying on two hours. Two hours can help, but they don't ensure a win.

[Karinya]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

"Let's get SMNs and BLMs to burn it!"
Probably.
Barring Maat and Dynamis Lord, its the way a lot of people have done CoPs. I'm proud to say I haven't seen a SMN since the first promy.

Well, I was mostly referring to MNKs (since my CoP static had two, maybe three depending on the fight). They have a 2hour that you're going to want to make part of your strategy, if you have them; it's that good, you'd be a fool not to. (Chainstun played a role in some of those, too. Not something that you can easily substitute for by "keeping cool".)

But speaking of SMN, would you say they aren't reliant on their 2hr for mission fights? And if this isn't a problem for SMN, why is it a catastrophe for DNC (especially when they *already* have the option of 2houring one run and using an i-wing the next run, which SMN can't even do, *and* at higher levels they get even more options)?

There's nothing wrong with DNC having a powerful 2hour that they will want to use often. There's also nothing wrong with them having somewhat limited options for the first 30 seconds of a fight - after that *they won't run out of TP* the way mages run out of MP. They "rest" *by fighting*. That's a huge advantage that WHM, BLM, SMN, RDM, BLU and SCH can't touch. Those jobs start out full and run down; DNC starts out empty and builds up. It's a little early to knock that style as hopeless, I think.

[Jovant]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

Things I've noticed from PTing with dancers so far:

- Just like COR's Phantom Rolls did initially, DNC's cures can lock up and prevent other player's movement. Pretty sure SE will take care of this one soon.

- Aspir Samba, as expected, only works on mobs that have MP. The rules need to be bended here if DNC is to be a more reliable ally in helping refresh MP on the frontline, we can't always fight mage mobs.

- BCNM/CoP viablity pre-60 seems low. DNC needs TP to do its curing and some of these situations you just can't wait too long for cures. Icarus Wings could help, but this penalizes the DNC if a repeat run is needed. Meditate from /SAM is only viable post-60. Since DNC is already playing outside the old rules using TP instead of MP, why not give them a JA that lets them rest for a little TP, say like 75 or 100. This should help them have a starting point for these situations without having to endure a penalty

- Lack DD output is another strike against them for BCNM situations, particularly in BCs where spike damage pulls out the win.

- Similar to BRD, DNC is lacking on mage support abilities. BRD has Ballads and that's it, COR has Evoker's, Healer's, Warlock's and Wizard's Rolls. While I realize DNC is a frontline healer and don't want anything special about COR taken away, I think DNC needs some kind of mage support dance. I always liked "MP Mambo" from FFX-2, perhaps a dance that negates the cost of a spell on occasion. Kinda like Conserve MP, but nulling MP cost at random instead of full time.

*Sigh* This Is Basicly What I Read:"*Cry* DNC Needs To Be More Powerful! Aspir Samba Only Works On Mobs That Have Mp WTF? Why Not Work On Mobs Without MP TOO!, Give DNC a job abiliy That We Can Gain TP While Healing TOO!, Make DNC A Better DD TOO!, (Like Having The Abilites They Do Have Isnt Enough.)"DNC Seems Like A Well Balanced Job Already... Why Give Them Abilitys And Such To Make Them Even More Powerful?Your Just Doing Basic Rants... But I Guess It Happens For Every New Job that Comes Out.. I Say: "Boo-Freak'n-Who, Cry Me A River"

[Ziero]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

Well, thanks for letting me know I beat Maat, Fenrir, Diabolos, Snoll Tzar, Tenzen, Divine Might, several of the Promyvions and many other fights with bad strategies, then. (And Dynamis Lord, but he's not a BCNM.) Oh, and that strategy that I used for the SMN20 solo avatars? Terrible. I not only relied on my 2hr, it was practically the whole strategy. WTF was I thinking?!
I could have sworn strategies that got you the win were normally considered *good*.
Sure, for *loot* BCNMs, it's better to be able to go right back in for another run. (For those you can easily have a MP-using job cover the first 30 seconds while you build TP.)
But for *hard* BCNMs, very often you're not going to stand a chance without several and possibly even most people 2houring. Yes, this makes re-attempts a bit inconvenient. So come prepared and don't screw up the first time.
Any *mission* BCNM where you can win with no 2hours is too easy (or you're overleveled for it, in the case of uncapped ones not designed for 75s). They exist to be used.

I'm going to have to agree with that, for the most part. Though you can win with out two hours on some fights, you'll often need a LOT of luck to do so. For example, the time I beat Diabolos(mission) with no 2 hours, but in that vein, he only tried to use Nightmare once.

And reliance on 2 hours doesn't mean "throw smns at it lolz!", it means taking the best abilities each job has to offer and putting it to good use. Unless you have a perfect pt set up for every single fight you do, you're going to want to use each classes strongest abilities to their fullest. I could *not* have won the Mammet fight as many times as I have without people using two hours. And no, Smns and Blms weren't used. And while true, many CoP BCs can be won without a 2 hour, yes they are indeed easy.

For low lvl BCNM missions, a Dnc will just have to A) Use their two hour, B) Use an I-wing or C) Melee a bit like everyone else to initially build TP. But the higher they get and the harder the fights, the easier things are to work with. And anything 61+ is just the simplest thing in the world for a Dnc to get TP as they don't even *need* any JAs to be used.

[Vyuru]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

I really don't see the issue here myself, most BCNMs you run in, sleep some mobs, and start wacking away at them. Now, it will take a few hits to get a Drain Samba off (assuming dagger user) You'd probably be pretty stupid to go into a BCNM with JUST a Dancer as main healer and no other form of backup healer, so while the Dancer builds TP for the initial Drain Samba the backup healer takes care of the heals. Once Drain Samba goes off, you should be good to go with whatever other dances said Dancer wants to do.

Also, I'd point out that it's not just as a Dancer as main healer, I'd say you'd have to be pretty stupid to go into ANY BCNM with just one and only one healer. Well, any BCNM might be a bit strong, let's say any challenging BCNM, which is what we seem to be talking about here.

It has everything to do with low accuracy gap (since skills are relatively the same at those levels) plus high DPS on HtH weapons. In all frankness, I think most people using dnc/mnk aren't really sure of its merits. Daggers really don't hit for 0 damage often or at all... just really small numbers.

The only reason I am Dnc/Mnk right now is because it seems to work best for my level (lvl 6!) while I solo. Personally I would not advocate /mnk as a party sub or H2H as party weapons. When I do start partying on dancer I'll be using Daggers, most likely Sushi to make sure I don't miss and Drain Daze or whatever it's called is stuck on the mob, after that I don't know, may go /nin, but that's mostly because for now I'm only going to level it as a subjob up to lvl 37, and so do not gain the merits of /sam lvl 60+, and I can't really think of a sub that would work well with it. I might try Dnc/Blu for tanking purposes with Cocoon since the dances gain alot of hate, but can't really think of any other sub that would work well with it, but haven't put alot of thought into it either.

And finally, you really can't judge a BCNM strategy purely on whether they use two hours or not. It varies by party setup and lord knows what else. I would have to say though that in most cases two hours are the, things just got FUBAR'd job ability. Some BCNMs have a higher chance of getting FUBAR'd moreso than others, take some of the higher lvl KSBCNM fights, I would expect SOME two hours to be used to bring down that behemoth. A non manaburned ODS? Again, I could see where you may need to use a two hour if things go wrong, but I doubt you would need to plan on it.