Dancer issues thus far

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Things I've noticed from PTing with dancers so far:

- Just like COR's Phantom Rolls did initially, DNC's cures can lock up and prevent other player's movement. Pretty sure SE will take care of this one soon.

- Aspir Samba, as expected, only works on mobs that have MP. The rules need to be bended here if DNC is to be a more reliable ally in helping refresh MP on the frontline, we can't always fight mage mobs.

- BCNM/CoP viablity pre-60 seems low. DNC needs TP to do its curing and some of these situations you just can't wait too long for cures. Icarus Wings could help, but this penalizes the DNC if a repeat run is needed. Meditate from /SAM is only viable post-60. Since DNC is already playing outside the old rules using TP instead of MP, why not give them a JA that lets them rest for a little TP, say like 75 or 100. This should help them have a starting point for these situations without having to endure a penalty

- Lack DD output is another strike against them for BCNM situations, particularly in BCs where spike damage pulls out the win.

- Similar to BRD, DNC is lacking on mage support abilities. BRD has Ballads and that's it, COR has Evoker's, Healer's, Warlock's and Wizard's Rolls. While I realize DNC is a frontline healer and don't want anything special about COR taken away, I think DNC needs some kind of mage support dance. I always liked "MP Mambo" from FFX-2, perhaps a dance that negates the cost of a spell on occasion. Kinda like Conserve MP, but nulling MP cost at random instead of full time.

[Sabaron]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

...why not give them a JA that lets them rest for a little TP, say like 75 or 100. This should help them have a starting point for these situations without having to endure a penalty...

I say "Nay" to that. It basically would turn the DNC's TP bar into an MP bar just like any other. What's the difference between resting for TP and resting for MP? Now I can just Backline Dancer and make them rest instead of fight because "all they're doing is giving the mob TP" when they're up front with their "horrible" B-class dagger skill (which is basically what RDM's get).

[Vyuru]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

- Similar to BRD, DNC is lacking on mage support abilities. BRD has Ballads and that's it, COR has Evoker's, Healer's, Warlock's and Wizard's Rolls. While I realize DNC is a frontline healer and don't want anything special about COR taken away, I think DNC needs some kind of mage support dance. I always liked "MP Mambo" from FFX-2, perhaps a dance that negates the cost of a spell on occasion. Kinda like Conserve MP, but nulling MP cost at random instead of full time.

On the one hand, that could be kinda nice, on the other hand, wouldn't that be making Dancer pretty damn overpowered?

I haven't seen much in the way of dancer yet, true, but while being bored I went and visited some LS friends while they were in an exp party.

Party setup was:

Galkan Sch/rdm, Elvaan Pld/war, Hume Sam/something (/war?), Taru (Jcisko) Drg/war, Mithra (Emeraldd) Dnc/nin, Elvaan Drk/war. All in the 39-40 level range.

Exp camp was at the Oasis in East Altepa desert fighting goblins of various jobs (Robbers, Poachers, etc.

Now, not only was the Scholar able to toss out the occasional nuke by the looks of it, he didn't need to do much in the way of curing, I think the only thing I saw him cast for the most part while I was there was Regen II, with what looked like some Aspirs on the Drk gobbies and something else that he used with Accession but I missed what it was.

I don't think there was any time while I was watching them that they were in danger, despite the Bomb Toss spammage.

You really have to admit, that is pretty powerfull right there to say that they needed no other mage than a galkan sch/rdm to help keep the party alive, that one dancer, no matter how kickass and awesome Emmy-kitty is mind you, was able to main heal against that much AoE spammage.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

I say "Nay" to that. It basically would turn the DNC's TP bar into an MP bar just like any other. What's the difference between resting for TP and resting for MP? Now I can just Backline Dancer and make them rest instead of fight because "all they're doing is giving the mob TP" when they're up front with their "horrible" B-class dagger skill (which is basically what RDM's get).

JAs have recasts, give this one a 5 min recast or more and it can't be used to such ends. I'd be interested in hearing your solution to TP being wiped on entry to a CoP BCNM, as opposed to extentions of "curebot" paranoia (which is getting really old).

As it stands for 30, 40 and 50 cap CoP BCNMs, DNC is placed in a forced handicap because of its reliance on TP to do its abilities. And not all these mobs are something you can always run in and touch So how do you solve it, Icarus Wings and Meditate notwithstanding?

And seriously, who has shelled out the "you're giving the mob TP" argument since the introduction of ToA? It wasn't really about the TP with RDM pre-ToA, people who say that are dumb - it was about RDM's inablity to build TP at a justifiable rate due to dedication to casting. That's why RDM melee isn't very viable. In the ToA world, people were so bent on spamming TP no one cared about what gives a mob TP.

What does RDM have to do with DNC? Very little. Your fear is unfounded.

On the one hand, that could be kinda nice, on the other hand, wouldn't that be making Dancer pretty damn overpowered?

I don't see how it would be. I really just don't like the idea of making "support class" that doens't have something for everyone. That's the biggest problem with BRD. I won't go into most of thier spell list being trash, but what BRD does play is 95% melee and 5% mage buffs.

Meanwhile COR got +hMP, Refresh, +MAB, +M Acc and pet +MAB/+M Acc . And it can enhance existing enfeebles with Quick Draw. That's pretty big support on the mage side and they aren't exactly lacking in melee buffs save for Haste. If CORs get haste roll - and they're getting the ability to charge QDs similar to Strategims - BRDs will have little to no edge over a COR save for consistancy vs. random buffs and being a more reliable backup healer than COR is.

Anyway, I'd like something for mages from DNC. The healing support on frontlines is great and all, but once the newness of these jobs fades a bit and people come to the realization they don't like main healing, we'll really start to see where these jobs are lacking. Once everyone's got thier little 75 DNC feather in thier cap do you really think SCH's aren't going to be invited to main heal when DNC, WHM and RDM aren't seeking? They will, which is why I'm levelling SCH now so I don't have to deal with that so much. Main heal is a party role I'll not turn down, but I'll be damned if I can't use my Dark Arts from time to time.

These jobs - fun as they may seem now - are destined to be low population just like WHM, BRD and COR because they aren't bloodthirsty DDs. They're responsible PT roles and they will have obligations. When such jobs exist, rules are usually bent in thier favor. They gave COR things they didn't really need and things that make them very powerful - like Dispel, Sleep and scaled thier buffs to potentially exceed BRD's. People still don't play them though, because it has respobsibilities that draw it away from hurting monsters

Oh and it has to pay to DD and support as well.

[Silent Howler]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

As it stands for 30, 40 and 50 cap CoP BCNMs, DNC is placed in a forced handicap because of its reliance on TP to do its abilities. And not all these mobs are something you can always run in and touch So how do you solve it, Icarus Wings and Meditate notwithstanding?

Don't forget about Reverse Flourish. Might not be the quickest way but it does help. Although it does require Finishing Moves, I'm not sure how difficult it would be to land a Quick Step on any particular BCNM. If that does prove to be difficult, then I can see how DNC could have some problems.

[Sabaron]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

I'd be interested in hearing your solution to TP being wiped on entry to a CoP BCNM, as opposed to extentions of "curebot" paranoia (which is getting really old)...

Well, two things would solve the problem quite well:

(1) Remove the TP wipe a the beginning of the CoP BCs.
(2) Regain

The 2nd effect provides the solution you're looking for without the allusion to back-line magery with resting. It could be provided in the form of an item usable by DNC such as a corsage or ribbon wherein you will forsake some power in exchange for TP Regain--for example like a low-level Opo-opo Necklace, charged item that only works while it's equipped (ala Vision/Mighty Rings) or maybe even a JA that Converts some of your HP to TP. We don't want it to be as good as SAM, of course. I think I prefer the item form.

For the record though, I've never said anything about DNC being a curebot prior to my assertion that giving them the ability to rest for TP might cause such an effect.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

From what I've seen, Dancer was an attempt to make healing "fun" to the DD crowd.

"You get to hit the mob," which everybody likes, "and then, so long as you heal somebody first, you get to do all kinds of cool stuff!"

What DD wouldn't like that, at least in theory?

[DakAttack]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

What if the dancer put a debuff on the enemy, that would in turn buff an ally upon striking it, that would then buff an ally that cast a spell on that person? It'd be crazy, but it could work. The only problem is it wouldn't really be necessary for the entire party.

Perhaps it could just be a general Regen + Refresh that would spread through the party when they interact?

[Karinya]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

Things I've noticed from PTing with dancers so far:
- Aspir Samba, as expected, only works on mobs that have MP. The rules need to be bended here if DNC is to be a more reliable ally in helping refresh MP on the frontline, we can't always fight mage mobs.

I think the primary way they help MP is by taking some formerly MP-eating responsibilities and accomplishing them with cheap, easy-to-replenish TP. It's a different approach to the party's MP economy - less increasing the supply than reducing the demand.

- BCNM/CoP viablity pre-60 seems low. DNC needs TP to do its curing and some of these situations you just can't wait too long for cures. Icarus Wings could help, but this penalizes the DNC if a repeat run is needed. Meditate from /SAM is only viable post-60. Since DNC is already playing outside the old rules using TP instead of MP, why not give them a JA that lets them rest for a little TP, say like 75 or 100. This should help them have a starting point for these situations without having to endure a penalty

Um, because that would directly duplicate Meditate? I don't think DNC was ever intended to be the *only* healer in a party; as is, they can samba almost immediately, and have plenty of TP for waltzes well before the MP-based curers start running low. TP is a bottomless well as long as you keep fighting, so I don't think it's unreasonable for it to have a slightly slow start. (SE also already anticipated this problem and provided a solution; see below.)

TP is different from MP. You start empty and fill up by fighting. That's how TP is *designed* to work, and if a TP-based job plays differently as a result, I think it's a reasonable guess that that too is intended.

As for the I-wings, I think it probably wouldn't hurt in general if medicated status wore off when you left certain special zones (BCNM, Dynamis/Limbus, Assault, Salvage, Einherjar... you get the idea; logging/disconnecting while inside would NOT count). The restriction is mainly necessary to stop spamming certain items *within* those fights; given the strict conditions on reentering those fights, I don't think it's unreasonable to allow players to start fresh when they do reenter.

But as it stands it's not really any worse than strategies that rely on a 2-hour; are repeat runs unreasonably unfair to SMN? MNK, RDM and others need their 2-hour back for a repeat run at snoll tzar; is it horrible that they have to wait 2 hours for it? In practice 2 hours often means "we'll try again tomorrow/next week", because people 3 time zones apart can rarely afford to get together, make it to a battlefield, make their first attempt, and then *actually* sit 2 hours and then try again; so the difference between 2 hours and 3 isn't that relevant.

Speaking of 2-hours, isn't there one that will reduce the TP cost of all dances to 0 for its duration? Including, potentially, applying free steps and then Reverse Flourishing them back for TP you can use after the 2-hour wears off (if meleeing between dances wouldn't give you enough TP)?

- Lack DD output is another strike against them for BCNM situations, particularly in BCs where spike damage pulls out the win.

You want perhaps an A ranked DD that's also an A ranked support job? Come on. Every time a new job comes out someone whines that it isn't totally awesome at *every* possible application, or that it has some balancing weakness. You want spike damage, invite a THF, RNG, BLM or SMN (depending on what you're trying to do spike damage *to*).

Dancer isn't THF with dances, any more than PUP is MNK with a pet, or COR is RNG with rolls, or SCH is BLM with better heals - and for the same reasons. Keeping the damage output of those dedicated DD jobs while also having major other capabilities would result in an uberjob that would make the original(s) obsolete. If you want the damage output of a pure DD, be prepared to sacrifice pretty much *every* other capability of your job to get it - they do.

I admit dancer isn't an ideal choice for, say, snoll tzar. But plenty of jobs aren't ideal choices for snoll tzar and manage to get through it anyway - and not all fights are snoll tzar. Several are grueling endurance fights where people easily run out of mp - but tp keeps on giving.

In addition, pretty much everyone has at least two jobs at level 30, and can get at least a second job to level 40 without much trouble; often more. So it's not a disaster if some jobs are lackluster in low level special situations. (On the other hand, being weak in low level *exp* is more of a problem, because you can't get to higher levels except by exping at lower ones. But this isn't a post about SCH.)

- Similar to BRD, DNC is lacking on mage support abilities. BRD has Ballads and that's it, COR has Evoker's, Healer's, Warlock's and Wizard's Rolls. While I realize DNC is a frontline healer and don't want anything special about COR taken away, I think DNC needs some kind of mage support dance. I always liked "MP Mambo" from FFX-2, perhaps a dance that negates the cost of a spell on occasion. Kinda like Conserve MP, but nulling MP cost at random instead of full time.

Um... no? You may not like etudes and threnodies, but ignoring their existence doesn't do your point any good. Elegy is also very useful (when fighting dangerous mobs) and COR doesn't get it or anything like it; since it's the mages' job to clean up after monster attacks, less monster attacks = less work for mages. Protective songs could probably stand to be improved, but again, preventing damage and other bad effects to the party = less stress on a mage once the attack lands. Old school BRDs also directly reduced the workload on mages by doing some of it themselves; every time the WHM doesn't have to get up for paralyna or whatever is some more precious MP they can recover.

As for DNC, it lightens the load on mages by doing some things that mages would otherwise do, for cheap and easy to replace TP. It also does reasonably decent damage. It doesn't duplicate the capabilities of any other job; it also isn't intended to. It's even more of an energizer bunny than RDM, while also doing better damage (sustainably, anyway; RDM can probably beat its DPS by nuking, but after you blow through 2 manapools the DNC will start catching up), but less able to give away its energy to MP-using others.

While it's possible that COR may have been overbuffed so that it's superior to other support jobs, even if true that's hardly a reason to overbuff other support or hybrid-support jobs. Support jobs and parties that include one or two of them are already very, very effective compared to the alternatives. If COR's buffs (at a reasonable mix of roll numbers!) are just plain better than other support jobs, to a degree that makes up for its near-complete lack of debuffs, that's more of a reason to tone down COR than a reason to buff the most useful, in-demand jobs in the game (a category that, at least to first impression, includes DNC) so that everyone needs them *even more*.


Mostly, what I see in this post is requests to buff a job that is already so useful, widespread and effective it's making the concerns about BLU being "too good" look like a joke by comparison. DNC isn't the job that there's four of standing around LFG; it's the job that people invite three of to the same party because they're just that good (or at least perceived that way), and that being level 30 in a week isn't a sign of not having a full-time job, it's hardly even remarkable.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

Mostly, what I see in this post is requests to buff a job that is already so useful, widespread and effective it's making the concerns about BLU being "too good" look like a joke by comparison.

This post is citing clear problems the job will face in the future. Its enjoyable now because there are so gosh-darn many of them. You realize how EASY it is to get an invite as a DD right now when there's 30 DNCs seeking at any given level? Very easy. My SAM is riding the wave to sub level right now, SCH will begin ride the wave of DNCs by the end of the week.

DNC isn't being invited just because its good, its because its all that's seeking. Watch this role change dramatically and its population drop once its newness and "usefulness" wears off. You know as well as I do they're all going to be /SAM at endgame - well, at least when they come to thier senses and see they can't melee everything for TP.

You've seen how reluctanct endgame has been to embrace PUP, COR and BLU after nearly two years. The applications of COR and BLU should be obvious, but they're not in the endgame cliques yet regardless of that. And there's NO shortage of 75 BLUs. They'll take a WHM or RDM over DNC, I'd think.

Regain

If SE gives Regain to any job but WHM, they're out of their minds. An Auto-Regain trait, however, could help a great deal.

[Sabaron]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

...
If SE gives Regain to any job but WHM, they're out of their minds. An Auto-Regain trait, however, could help a great deal.

That is exactly why I was suggesting something of a DNC only Corsage/Ribbon that, while lower level, is otherwise undesirable except for generating TP--for instance you have to be Paralyzed to use it, it gives Max HP down 50% while it's in effect, Accuracy-20, etc. Basically, I like the idea of bringing commerce into it so that it won't become "common". Make said item take a gold ingot or something and have 10 charges like a reraise hairpin, use 1 charge per 24 hours (so you have to buy scads of them to use repeatedly), and there you go--limited, but available, TP pre-buffing for CoP. Call it the "Hubris Flower" or something.

[Jarre]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

Well, two things would solve the problem quite well:
(1) Remove the TP wipe a the beginning of the CoP BCs.
(2) Regain
The 2nd effect provides the solution you're looking for without the allusion to back-line magery with resting. It could be provided in the form of an item usable by DNC such as a corsage or ribbon wherein you will forsake some power in exchange for TP Regain--for example like a low-level Opo-opo Necklace, charged item that only works while it's equipped (ala Vision/Mighty Rings) or maybe even a JA that Converts some of your HP to TP. We don't want it to be as good as SAM, of course. I think I prefer the item form.
For the record though, I've never said anything about DNC being a curebot prior to my assertion that giving them the ability to rest for TP might cause such an effect.

The 2nd affect is not able to be used unless dancer was a sub job.

the 3 items wiki lists to get this ,
1st Monarch's Drink which is salvage only and a temporary item found in armour crates.
2nd Tactical ring is dark only.
3rd Wing Gorget
[Neck] All Races
DEF: 5 Enchantment: Regain
Lv. 49 WAR / PLD / DRK

so you have to be lvl 49 and have war, pld or drk as your main with dnc sub which defeats the whole object.

The removal of the TP is the only solution, but that involves SE to change, but then you'd get the saad individuals who will argue that it gives dancer an advantage and request SE nerfs dancer.

Its a bit of a downer when dancer has to wait 3 or 4 rounds of hits befor thy can start being usefull or spend 8k a BCNM just to get an icarus wing.

[Silent Howler]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

The 2nd affect is not able to be used unless dancer was a sub job.

That's why he was suggestion a new item be created for Dancer to use.

[Karinya]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

And that's why I was suggesting that you use the ability that lets you do as many dances as you want for free, right at the start of the BCNM, and then later when you need TP, you have some.

I don't think it's necessary to borrow trouble like this. They don't even have their AF yet and you're worrying about what will they do at endgame?

And what's so wrong with /SAM, anyway? Lots of other jobs do it. SE is clearly moving away from the "50 people standing around because only 18 can have claim" fights with more battlefield fights (Salvage, Einherjar) and claimless battles (Besieged, Campaign), but for the bosses that spawn in normal areas, if melees sub SAM and use opo necklaces, there's no reason DNCs can't too.

It seems to me that all endgame LS would love to have CORs if they could find some, and BLUs are limited mainly by their DD ONRY mindset. BLUs that accept that their job at endgame might be more useful doing something *other* than spamming Frenetic Rip seem pretty welcome to me. (The scarcity of those jobs in *Dynamis* and *Limbus* is obvious: that content has nothing to offer them. But that hardly generalizes to endgame as a whole.)

PUP gets hurt hard by the mechanics of fighting super-high-level enemies, as both the master and puppet suffer excessively from having below-A-ranked skills - and PUP has no clear group role they excel in in the first place. I don't know how to fix that (and clearly neither does SE, since BST has had the same problem since forever), but I see no reason to believe that DNC will have similar problems.


To sum up, DNC's options for circumventing one of the major design features of their job (and the limitations on doing so):
* Items. (Opo necklace, i-wing) Level and/or reuse time restrictions.
* /SAM. 60+.
* 2hour. Recast timer.
* Something we don't know about (AF, DNC merits, etc.)

And once you get over the first 30 seconds, you can use TP as fast as you can rebuild it. Outside of a few fights, *most* endgame content allows melees to melee. Furthermore, if you're not a 5 melees and a DNC party, you don't really urgently need to dance *right* away anyway; you can do more dancing later on in the fight when MP go down over time and TP go up. Work with the other support/healer members and don't try to do everything yourself.

[Sabaron]

Re: Dancer issues thus far

And that's why I was suggesting that you use the ability that lets you do as many dances as you want for free, right at the start of the BCNM, and then later when you need TP, you have some.

I don't think it's necessary to borrow trouble like this. They don't even have their AF yet and you're worrying about what will they do at endgame?

The issue I'm reffering to is far from end game. There are already TP solutions form DNC post 60. The specific problem (in this case) is with capped CoP BCNMs wherein you lose your TP when you enter.

And what's so wrong with /SAM, anyway? Lots of other jobs do it. SE is clearly moving away from the "50 people standing around because only 18 can have claim" fights with more battlefield fights (Salvage, Einherjar) and claimless battles (Besieged, Campaign), but for the bosses that spawn in normal areas, if melees sub SAM and use opo necklaces, there's no reason DNCs can't too.

There isn't anything wrong with /SAM. I think it will be an excellent sub for Dancer even though it will probably be the only end-game dancer sub--Que Sera Sera.

...PUP gets hurt hard by the mechanics of fighting super-high-level enemies, as both the master and puppet suffer excessively from having below-A-ranked skills - and PUP has no clear group role they excel in in the first place. I don't know how to fix that (and clearly neither does SE, since BST has had the same problem since forever), but I see no reason to believe that DNC will have similar problems.

I don't think skill should be a problem for DNC. I'm betting SE set it at B to moderate their TP gain. As for PUP, they have a faster TP gain than /DNC because they use hand-to-hand weapons therefore making a good candidate for PUP/DNC in a more supporting role than they were previously able to do--support without the need to rest.

To sum up, DNC's options for circumventing one of the major design features of their job (and the limitations on doing so):
* Items. (Opo necklace, i-wing) Level and/or reuse time restrictions.
* /SAM. 60+.
* 2hour. Recast timer.
* Something we don't know about (AF, DNC merits, etc.)

Use of the Two-hour is good, but both AF and /SAM are out until 60 which is why I'm advocating a lower-level TP item that's not an Icarus Wing.

I also agree that it's probably completely unnecessary for a DNC to start with 300% TP in a BC or any fight in general though they will likely do so. Dances are so cheap that it shouldn't take a Dancer (even with B) skill very long to build enough TP to start moving, and as was previously stated, the back-line can handle it, the Dancer doesn't have to be a one-(wo)man show.