/MNK.... Um, what?

[Karinya]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

I just discussed this in another thread here. The short version: I don't think dagger's disadvantages for THF apply to DNC, and the lower accuracy and higher delay of H2H makes it a questionable choice.

[DakAttack]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

I just discussed this in another thread here. The short version: I don't think dagger's disadvantages for THF apply to DNC, and the lower accuracy and higher delay of H2H makes it a questionable choice.

A lot of H2H weapons have +Acc at lower levels, as well as +Atk.

[Jarre]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

As posted in my Galka dancer thread (update coming when I hit 15)

I quote my findings at low levels between dagger and H2H

After 10 mobs each H2H is averageing 12TP per round. Dagger is 5 Tp per round.

The average hit rate was 2 rounds of H2H to 3 rounds of dagger meaning total tp gain was 24 H2H and 15 Dagger. When Dagger skill is much much higher than H2H i.e. lvl 25 or higher dagger will be better.

The fact is at lower levels you only have drain samba (10 TP) i.e. you only need one round of H2H to get enough tp for. and curing waltz (20 TP) i.e 2 rounds H2H. You will find yourself soloing up to 15 minimum so you will be using your weapon skills, making combo a must with H2H (or fast blade if you so wish to use swords)

I subbed Mnk for the following reasons +VIT, martial arts and +HP giving me a good chance at tanking EM & Toughs of certain mobs. Mage subs are Meh as Galka MP is poor and I can't afford astrals!!

In party situations I think going /war and being able to share hate with a low level war or nin would be very benefitial. But up till 30 at least Mnk is your best bet.

[Armando]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

Karinya: I don't think -3% hit rate's going to make or break any DNC's ability to get TP.

[Karinya]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

Probably not, but on the other hand, I don't think a DNC10/MNK5 is going to attack twice with H2H for every 3 swings of a 200 Delay dagger, either. I don't think even a MNK75 has H2H delay *that* low. And when I see someone calculate their TP gain based on the assumption that they hit on every swing - especially at a level too low to wear any serious amount of acc gear - I tend to dismiss the rest of the post. Is that too harsh?


Neither weapon is actually bad - dancer is *really* strong at low levels almost regardless of what weapon you choose. (As long as it's something you have *some* skill in.)

I guess I just don't want to join what I see as a more or less mindless hate for daggers based on their *first* ws's lack of big numbers. (Never mind the fact that it's a DoT.)

Maybe I should try to find a dnc/mnk of the same level and duo (for one thing, we can *accurately* time our delay against each other)... are any of you guys on Carbuncle?

[Armando]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

I guess I just don't want to join what I see as a more or less mindless hate for daggers based on their *first* ws's lack of big numbers. (Never mind the fact that it's a DoT.)

It's not really mindless. It's not just Wasp Sting's sheer, horrible amount of suck (adding a weak Poison is no excuse; when it comes down to it you'll probably have one person in the party using Poison anyways, and other than that the WS is quite literally a normal dagger hit.) It's also the fact that for normal hits, daggers suck too. Their DMG/sec is just sucky. As a weapon, it more or less fails from 1-20.

Though to be fair Knife +1 has passable DMG/sec. Ever-so-slightly Better than Legionnaire's Knuckles at the same level. But a Bilbo +1 is even better, so...

As for the 2 H2H hits per 3 (200 Delay) dagger swings, if by attacking twice you mean two attack rounds, then yeah, no, that doesn't happen. Bare-handed H2H with Martial Arts 1 is 200 Delay per hand, which is the same as a 200 Delay dagger. With a weapon, it'd be slower.

[Skoal]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

DNC should sub nin until level 10. That makes the most sense.

[dekarguy]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

DNC should sub nin until level 10. That makes the most sense.

No good daggers before 10, no good swords before 10, lots of good H2H, and /NIN doesn't give any good job traits till 20/24

/mnk, /war, or /whm before 10 for martial arts, damage, or healing

[Armando]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

The NIN sub thing was a joke, and /WAR isn't going to do much of anything for your damage from 1-30.

[Malacite]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

No good daggers before 10, no good swords before 10, lots of good H2H, and /NIN doesn't give any good job traits till 20/24

/mnk, /war, or /whm before 10 for martial arts, damage, or healing

Tell that to my Bronze Knife +1 and my Automaton

[Jarre]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

You keep refering to daggers Katrinya when DNC cannot use them. they can only use a knife and at the low levels the lowest knife delay I have found is 195 delay (and thats for a +1 knife) I also ahve +1 brass knuckles which have a lower delay and +Acc I also use Jack O lanterns to boost my +acc. I found I missed quite alot with knifes compared to H2H (even though dagger skill is capped at 80 at the moment) The/mnk subjob hlps the H2H. These are my findings useing a Galka, it could be different to othe races with less strength etc. I found that the quickest way of gaining TP was with H2H after many tests which is why i am sticking with it until the level gap between dagger skill and H2H skill is large (around 25-30) You can;t dismiss someones finding without trying them on teh same mobs, using the same gear, same race and same food.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

I found I missed quite alot with knifes compared to H2H (even though dagger skill is capped at 80 at the moment) The/mnk subjob hlps the H2H.

Hmmph. That doesn't make sense; /MNK should help only with DoT by reducing delay between attack rounds. Shouldn't do a thing for accuracy.

If you're not parsing it, you shouldn't claim H2H has better accuracy than dagger.

* * *

Lv.10
Hand-to-Hand: 28
Dagger: 31
> Accuracy+3 won't cover all the difference, but comes close.

Lv.20
Hand-to-Hand: 55
Dagger: 60
> Need Accuracy+10 for Hand-to-Hand to make up the difference.

Lv.30
Hand-to-Hand: 82
Dagger: 89
> Need Accuracy+14 for Hand-to-Hand to make up the difference.

[Jarre]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

Ifrit, it depends on the mobs (blunt damage etc.) but with the mobs I was fighting when doing the tests (bats, worms, lizzards and sapplings) that is how it happened with my Galka. I am only going on what I witnessed, with my equip setup, sub job stats and race. I can't do anymore than that. if you can't accept a different equation to what you have found out, its not even worth sharing my findings as your too one sided. There is no solid stats that is the same in every situaiton, its all different, it just helps build a picture between positive and negative findings if people post their different experiences. I am not poo pooing anyones post on their findings, this is just how my character has dealt damage to certain mbos with my current stats.

Don't forget I am at lvl 14 and know that stats will change towards dagger skill as I level, i will fidn this out later on, but now in my current situation and earlier levelling this is how I experienced it.

[Armando]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

Jarre, I don't mean to be rude, but Itazura is right. /MNK does nothing for your H2H skill, it just lowers the Delay to bearable levels. It's just how the game works. If you think /MNK was doing something for your accuracy, (and I can't think of any other way to put this,) you're mistaken about that. And if you think you missed more with daggers than with H2H, assuming both skills were capped and you weren't changing your +Acc, then you're mistaken about that too.

That's the problem with eyeballing your damage and hit rate. It's almost always wrong. I don't even trust my own observations unless I'm recording them.

P.S. Don't use Jack-o-Lanterns for soloing if that's what you were doing, you're much better off with meat jerky.

[Jarre]

Re: /MNK.... Um, what?

If you read my post above you note I said my H2H had +acc (using brass knuckles +1) and eating Jack O lanterns. The /mnk helps the H2H as it raises the skill cap slightly there was no such post I made that /mnk added acc. if you read it that way, you have read it wrong.