What will you Sub with Dancer?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

I think it remains to be seen how much TP Dancer needs; Drain Samba lasts for quite a while, so don't need to reapply very often. Don't want to sacrifice too much damage if better dagger with higher delay is available by going with some very low damage, low delay ones.

Of course, if the goal is making the best use out of Drain Samba, then low delay daggers and Dual Wield are the way to go. Not entirely clear if drain daze still take off monster's HP when it shows "0", though, like it is for the spell Drain.

As for throwing, do Dancer get anything good to throw? I was under the impression only Ninja has decent throwing weapons. Whatever that's being throw, if it misses much more than dagger, it may not be worth the effort.

* * *

In Signet area, resting between fights should be the norm. (Poke anyone who's not pulling and yet not resting.) Looks like /WHM may work nicely, for an extra source of Cure and status removal.

[Saren]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

Obviously we don't know how TP intensive Dancer might be yet but I was just saying to the people who have been advocating /nin for faster TP gain that it doesn't look like /nin gives you more TP at all. I think a dancer who is healing quite a lot is going to be quite TP intensive, 20 TP for Curing Waltz, 35 for Curing Waltz 2.

I didn't make a big point of drain samba because not sure how it works yet but people have been saying that you need to hit for some damage for it to activate. Assuming that's true then the very low delay daggers might not help very much.

Had a quick look in game, seems like Dancer can only use Chakram type ranged weapons so not really sure on how useful that is. They don't have anywhere near the damage of nin throwing weapons and higher delay but the first ones you get are in the late 200s delay wise which means 7TP on each successful hit, might be nice for when you could really do with enough TP for something right away.

Edit: On the delay front, single wielding a 220 delay dagger (the maximum you can get) you only need 20% haste to get down to 180 delay so haste and 5% from gear would do it so you could still get down to the nice TP zone without compromising on damage.

[Malacite]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

ppl haven't been checking wiki it seems

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Dancer

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Divine_Waltz 40 TP

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Curing_Waltz_II 35 TP (heals 170 HP but still..)

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Drain_Samba_II 25 TP

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Drain_Samba_II 20 TP just to remove a status effect.

Depending on how much dancing you do, you're gonna be burning your TP pretty quickly. Full-time Sushi is a given for later levels (due to B rank Dagger and reliance on accuracy) and DW 2, while it'll lower your per-hit TP gain which sucks, will increase your DoT and over all TP gain.

/WAR is better if you want to deal more damage and get more TP though Double Attack isn't as reliable as DW2.


Sorry if I came across as negative, I've just been weighing the pros and cons of each sub in my head for EXP parties. If meditate was still on it's old 1 minute timer (how long ago was that anyway o. O) then yah /SAM would rock but that's not the case.

/WHM just doesn't seem to fit because of how active DNC is. It could work and will have to be tested. Like I said, it'll hinge on just how good Aspir Samba I and II are. Plus, support subs like /WHM and /BRD really don't help your accuracy and TP gain as much as other subs and that's what DNC needs most. You might be able to get away with Hunter's Roll since SE buffed it up but forget about Sword Madrigal. Won't do squat and takes 8 seconds to cast. BRD has a C rating in singing skill.


I will say this though, as thrilled about the job as I am, the description on POL really made it sound as though DNC/BLM would be a bad ass combo >. >

[Restlesstornado]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

If /WAR and /NIN are the only options, I am so going /WAR just for the sake that I'm sick of /NIN ONRY OR NO PT!!!!!!LOLOL@ONEONOEONE! The only time I ever go /NIN is when I'm in RNG mode.

in all fairness the only job thats listed on your char information that would benifit /NIN at thier respected lvls is RNG so what does it prove?

[Eiyoko]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

But Mom, I don't wanna level my Ninja subjob...

...in all seriousness, my wallet will not agree with it. I'm always poor, how would I ever manage to get Ninja to 37, or even keep it up as a subjob with the shadow thing? I bet I'd slack off with Utsusemi in the end either way, knowing me. x.x

I guess I'll just have to wait and see what else is effective...if this class has to sub Ninja (effective as it may be) as a cookie cutter that would suck.

[Malacite]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

Getting NIN to 37 is hardly expensive anymore...

Shiehei has gone way down since all the recent bannings.

[Armando]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

Saren: You're not taking into account that your TP while dual wielding is calculated using the average of your two (reduced) Delays, NOT your combined Delay. Also, Haste doesn't affect your Delay (i.e. it doesn't change your TP gain per hit; it stays the same, while you swing faster.)

Malacite, why do you continue to shun /SAM if you're stressing the need for TP so much? Because DNC consumes TP in small, exact amounts, and frequently, they get the full benefit of Store TP (as opposed to Store TP only benefiting a DD in specific amounts, since you can only get to 100 TP in exactly X hits.)

/NIN isn't going to be as effective for DNC as it is for THF. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but Dancer doesn't seem to have access to 99% of all dagger and baselards - they only use knives and kukri. Most knives and kukri have 190-206 Delay, with some HQ versions going down to 186, but hardly any go lower than that except for Blau Dolch at 178 (but Blau is a very expensive weapon and will surely become even more expensive now with the extra demand.) I don't think they get access to Sirocco Kukri, either, but I can't check for sure since it's not sellable on the AH. In other words, they're stuck with the slowest weapons of the dagger family.

Basically, with those dagger Delays, with only DWII the best they can get is a ~10% boost to TP/time, and with Suppa, a ~15% boost. /SAM can match that easily even without a Rajas Ring, and before taking Zanshin (which you seem to be forgetting) and Meditate into account (which, might I add, is useful immediately since for DNC, Meditate isn't just 6/10ths of the TP needed to WS.)

Then comes an important issue: hate. Let's assume two possible scenarios: a) DNC doesn't pull hate often; b) DNC does pull hate often. If DNC pulls hate often, then /NIN helps with Utsusemi, but casting Utsusemi will slow down your TP generation and your damage. /WAR wouldn't be able to use Berserk as often, or he/she'll be end up taking plenty of damage. Both /NIN and /WAR lose part of their edge, while /SAM doesn't lose anything. If DNC doesn't pull hate often, then /WAR still beats /NIN in the damage department while keeping up in TP, thanks to Attack Bonus 1, Berserk, and Double Attack.

Edit: Also, I'm getting tired of all the "oh nos not /WAR and /NIN, /WAR and /NIN are teh lames cos its cookie-cutter!" /WAR and /NIN are cookie cutter because they work better than most other subs. I don't think DNC will lose any of its individuality from subbing either one. Is a PLD/WAR anything like a SAM/WAR or a DRG/WAR? No.

[Kailea]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

Armando.... really I did not sound like that at all, I showed what ?WAR and /NIN would be used for in my post... I just dont think people should say those would be the only classes people should yous, or the only two that would be the moste effective, because they are not.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

I just find it odd people are so uptight about a new job using old subjobs. I realizer some people feel other subs are underplayed but they are underplayed for a reason:

They don't work so good.

And sometimes a new job isn't going to make them better, though I do expect that in scholars case people might want to take /BLM on from time to time.

For Dancer, another support class that can viably use melee subs like /WAR, /NIN and /SAM should be welcomed because it could get more people into playing (and enjoying) as a supporting role. People have this obsession with needing to hurt things to feel useful in this game and abhor being the support player. God forbid you do anything but damage, helping your allies won't kill you.

Support Classes are mostly what I do, I simply levelled RNG as it complimented my COR. Now there's another support class that uses similar gear. That's a win in my book, means I get to reuse some old stuff and to reuse my other subs and have another use for /SAM is even better.

[DieselBoy09]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

When I start lvling it, I will probably sub whm, sam or war. The rest just aren't appealing. I'm honestly waiting till people have experimented a little more, everything at this moment is pure speculation and I don't care for it.

[Malacite]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

I posted the wiki links, see for yourself.

The higher up you go the more TP-intensive DNC's abilities become. 40 TP for Curing Waltz II, and I'll bet IV takes at least (maybe less, but that'd be sick). Meditate is really a 1-shot deal and quite Frankyl I find Zanshin doesn't kick in enough to be worth it.

you're right about the equipment though. I'm not sure if it was good or bad on SE's part to exclude DNC from Mercurial Kris, since it's exactly what the job needs. Also, due to the B rank, /WAR may or may not hold up as a DD sub. With Berserk you may just be able to do it, who knows. Double Attack is definitely a big plus. I imagine endgame DNC will want Suppa + Brutal.

DNC is a support job anyway. Oh, and has anyone tested our +CHR yet to see if it has any impact on dances? It seems weird that yet another entertainer job doesn't need CHR

[Armando]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

I posted the wiki links, see for yourself.

The higher up you go the more TP-intensive DNC's abilities become. 40 TP for Curing Waltz II, and I'll bet IV takes at least (maybe less, but that'd be sick). Meditate is really a 1-shot deal and quite Frankyl I find Zanshin doesn't kick in enough to be worth it.

I saw, but I still don't get it. You still say that as if SAM sub doesn't make as much extra TP with Store TP II alone as /WAR and /NIN do. Zanshin is just icing on the cake. And while Meditate is a one-shot deal, it's still there, and it still helps. Pulling 60 TP out of thin air every 3 minutes would help a lot with your Dances; it's essentially getting 1-3 dances for free.

Also, /SAM would be the best sub for taking advantage of Joyeuse, since Double Attack effectiveness is cut in half when single-wielding a Joyeuse, and dual wielding a Joyeuse would get you out of the sub-180 Delay zone and also dillute Joyeuse's extra TP generation. Joyeuse doesn't gimp any of /SAM's TP-making traits, and Zanshin would help with Joyeuse's D-rank sword skill.

/RNG is another sub that hasn't been mentioned that's also viable. Accuracy Bonus II = +22 Accuracy = +11% hit rate. That could also work wonders for Joytoy.

I think S-E was right to not let DNC have Mercurial Kris. If you're going to make a job that consumes TP to use buffs and debuffs, then it's obviously unbalanced to give it access to a weapon that doubles your TP intake with no catch other than gimping your damage. Joyeuse is only +50% TP gain and that's offset by DNC's low sword skill - I'm sure it's still possible to get TP faster with Joyeuse than with a dagger, but you certainly wouldn't be getting it 50% faster against anything that matters.

EDIT: Never mind about /RNG. Didn't notice DNC gets Acc Bonus I at 30. That seriously cuts into the usefulness of /RNG since the net gain would only be 12 Acc, not 22.

[Lmnop]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

Sambas last 2 minutes. Meditate is every 3 minutes. In 6 minutes time, 120 free tp and 3 samba castings. Even with 35 or higher tp costs per samba, this is better than Refresh for mp jobs.

Since Drain Daze is a status effect that only lasts ~5 seconds contingent on each of your melee swings (that's what I'm gathering from FF wiki... I haven't partied with one yet), I can see some issues later on with the job. Namely, fighting HNMs (though I'd doubt Sambas will be what they'll be doing @HNM). However, even hits for 0 damage proc the effect, so that other players capable of doing damage can take advantage of it. This rambling brings me to another point: swinging faster doesn't make you drain more, does it? Wiki also states the drained amount is proportionate to damage dealt. The only advantage of faster swings is more chances to hit to keep the Daze going. Single wielded 200 delay is 3.3 seconds. As long as they keep up 50% accuracy, the effect should be reasonably continuous. And the good ones will have 70%+ accuracy, so I'm not worried about the need to really speed up your attacks (unless it's haste, and thus more tp).

Lol@Galka Dancers having the strongest cures (appears to be VIT based).

[Malacite]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

How many times do I have to explain /SAM >_>

Meditate is too sparse to rely on for the higher level dances, since you'll consume almost if not all of the TP you get from it in a single dance (HNMs are another story where you don't want to melee. but as I said before, this DNC needs to melee so they may be hosed here) and you have to understand how Store TP works.

the average TP on a dagger is 4.8~5.2% TP per swing. With Store TP II and a Rajas ring, that'll boost you to around 6 TP a swing at best. I'd rather have berserk and double attack over that personally.

[Armando]

Re: What will you Sub with Dancer?

Meditate is too sparse to rely on for the higher level dances, since you'll consume almost if not all of the TP you get from it in a single dance (HNMs are another story where you don't want to melee.

But that's still 60 TP you wouldn't other have. You can't stress that dances are expensive and then write off one or two free dances every so often as insignificant.

the average TP on a dagger is 4.8~5.2% TP per swing. With Store TP II and a Rajas ring, that'll boost you to around 6 TP a swing at best. I'd rather have berserk and double attack over that personally.

And Dual Wield shaves off fractions of a second at best. The boosts are still there and they're not insignificant. Though I have to agree Berserk and Double Attack probably win out in the end.

I just find it silly that you're saying /SAM sucks but /NIN is ok, when /SAM definitely does more for your TP than /NIN.