Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

[Balfree]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

Add Lv.60+, any melee with /THF to that list.

And...? Im talking about skills, not job combinations. We have new jobs coming, and they probably come bundled with a whole bunch of new skills.

There are probably more JAs which affect enmity significantly, but these came to mind:
- Sentinel
- Rampart
- Warcry
- Last Resort
- Sharpshot
- Boost
- Shield Bash
- Weapon Bash
- Hide

If counting spells (not big damage or curing ones):
- Flash
- Stun
- Blind / Kurayami
- Sleep / Lullaby
- Bind
- Jettatura?
- Actinic Burst?
...
- Sandspin >_>;

Aye, I'm not a complete twit. I know _things_ cause "hate". But how many of these are used solely for hate gain? Well TA adds to damage i believe but it is a tactical skill to induce hate on someone else and that makes it rather unique. Provoke simply gives you hate. These are the main "just for hate" tools. Everything else while counting towards hate gain, but probably not used just for that purpose, I bet you anything if TA didnt give hate to the person standing in front of you, THFs wouldnt bother standing behind anyone, right? That and Provoke is what I call hate tools.

Well DOH, paladins use their skills, it helps them get hate. Let's count every action you do then! Attacking gives you hate, maybe if you attack enough you can tank properly, provided no one else does. Hell even sitting next to some mobs gives you hate. New job: The Sitter. Tanks while sitting.

If the PLD skills were enough, they wouldnt sub WAR for voke.

... excuse my little outburst but pointing to me the fact that every skill provides hate gain was probably a bit too insinuating that I have no idea what the battle basics are in FFXI.

[Taskmage]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

Hate and how it works.
The basics

On that note, a post from a blog I like regarding enmity: http://kanican.livejournal.com/12192.html

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

I didn't mean to insult you, but I just find the statement "Right now only THF has the ability to play around directly with hate, not counting the regular provoke" a bit over simplified. I supposed it's a just a different point of view, but everything I listed does "directly" alter enmity, and not from doing damage or healing HP.

If you had wrote "These are the main "just for hate" tools" earlier, my response would've been worded differently.

Still, NIN/DRK uses Stun for enmity, and I've tanked on DRK/WAR using Weapon Bash, Last Resort, and Bind as enmity tools. In different situations, those thing are used "just for" enmity.

Again, it's a mater of interpretation, and I apologize if you read my response as an insult.

Well DOH, paladins use their skills, it helps them get hate.

Right. In my eyes, this contradicts "only THF has the ability to play around directly with hate, not counting the regular provoke" a bit. During exp, often the defensive job ability are used more for enmity than damage mitigation. One can say the effects other than enmity becomes secondary.

Of course, if you meant "purely" instead of "directly", then I'd agree with you, but I cannot read minds, so can only interpret your meaning by your words. ^_^;

If the PLD skills were enough, they wouldnt sub WAR for voke.

At endgame, I'm told PLD/NIN can tank. Initial TA(s), then build enmity from melee strikes, Flash, and JAs seem to be the standard operation.

[Dymlos]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

Now I wonder what the shorthand for Dancer is. I'm guessing it's one of these:
DNC
DCR
DAN (doubt it since it's a damn name.)

[Taskmage]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

Plds and nins sub war for provoke because it's the most reliable, predictable way for a melee job to get hate quickly. Given enough time, pld, nin and rdm can generate a very substantial amount of hate through their own skills and those of alternate subjobs, but not on the quick rhythm of an experience party where your enmity resets to zero every few minutes.

Anyway, it seems to me what we have here is a simple misunderstanding. There basic rules that say your actions make your enmity go up and time and damage to you make it go down. Basically any skill in the game can be said to interact with enmity in one of those two ways. Sentinel and the meritable bard songs basically change the coefficients in those equations. Thief is the only job that has skills that manipulate enmity outside of those basic mechanics, TA and hide.

[DeebsTundra]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

Look, when it comes right down to it, you hijacked a thread about Dancer and turned it into a tank discussion. ...but since it's been hijacked might as well throw my 2 cents in.

I haven't posted on this board in a long time. ...and the last 4 pages of this thread have been about tanks.
You people say warrior makes a great tank. ...and I agree to an extent. Up until level 30 I could tank war/nin, war/mnk or war/thf without a problem. The instant I moved from mandies in Yhoater Jungle to beetles in Eastern Altepa, all of a sudden... NOTHING I did would hold hate. A samurai would WS for 150-200 and the hate would be gone. Black mage would hit a Water II Magic Burst on Distortion for 280. Provoke would do NOTHING. Warrior until 74 in my opinion simply does not have the job abilities or tricks to hold hate. Ninja is no tank until 37. Low hp, Low VIT. Sure they have great evasion, and if you time it right and get lucky you can sneak Utsusemi: Ichi in there for some shadows. But 9 times out of 10, I'd get hit hard, and get interrupted. If say at level 50, you cannot find a paladin or a ninja, your only real safe option is multiple jobs with provoke and just hope hate bounces around nicely between those jobs. If you do have a "unusual" job tanking, you need to have real high quality healers backing you up. At dragoon level 73, we had a pull when the tank was afk. ...they tried to sleep it and wait for him to get back, but seeing as it was a Jnun, it started to resist sleep. (Caedarva Mire) The bard was half dead, so was the white mage. I was /war and just started to tank it. Sure, I hold hate great as a dragoon, especially geared the way I am for damage. I hold hate purely out of damage alone. ...but the healers have to spam high level cures to keep me from dying after 450 damage critical hits.

Anybody who claims all these different jobs can tank effectively and efficiently need to take a second look. Paladin efficiently holds hate and takes moderate to low damage. Ninja if played correctly (Talking to you people who use all your spells) efficiently holds hate and takes low to no damage. Warrior deals good damage, can't hold hate that well, and usually takes alot of damage pre-74. Samurai has a single shadow, holds hate...fairly...well thru damage but needs competent healers.

The idea of a tanking job was meant to be someone who requires little to no assistance to keep the focus of an enemy off the rest of the party while taking as little damage as possible. There are 2 jobs now that are the most efficient and effective at that job. That is Paladin and Ninja (post 37.) Don't let this turn into a job versus job argument either. Paladin is a great tank, but face it, isn't up to the task of dishing out the damage to take the mob down. My 1200+ Penta Thrusts take care of that. Of course if I pull that off, without a superjump ready... I'm pretty much dead because I take so much damage.

I'm sorry for the rant, but these tank arguments get under my skin.

[Taskmage]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

Nin is a perfectly good tank prior to 37 if you understand how to time ichi casts so as not to get interrupted. I can say that with some authority now because I've actually done it. 1-37 solo tanking except for two parties with a friend in Garliage. It's not an easy thing to learn, but it is flatly untrue that nin can't tank before Ni.

[DeebsTundra]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

You misquoted me. I never stated ninja can not and should not tank before 37. Because it can be done. But it requires skill. ...the reason people don't ask samurai, warrior, blue mage etc to tank, is because there are other jobs that are more specialized in it. In the party environment of ffxi, efficiency = more exp/hour = happy party members. Who wants a party with a terrible paladin who can't seem to hold hate and takes alot of damage when you can get a samurai who is geared right and can do it. There are always exceptions to the rules, but for the most part, ffxi is built around repetition. People have figured out what job does what part of the party to their liking, and they stick with it. Unfortunately there are never enough paladins and ninjas to go around.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

NIN is not a great solo tank before Lv.37 without a THF in party, and not before Lv.30, period. Put a DRG + SAM + BLM in party and watch Distortion blow apart monsters and any hope of keeping control as a tank. From my experience tanking on multiple jobs, BLU, DRG, WAR, and PLD are all better tank (due to superior mob control) than NIN at those levels.

Even my DRK/WAR can regain control faster after SA+Fast Blade from THFs than my NIN did.

NIN pre-37 still wins on damage mitigation, but watching a mandy running to the back line to hit the BLM and sleep all the mages made me cringe. x_x;

[Taskmage]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

Well then I would say it's untrue that "Ninja is no tank until 37." It's very possible, it's just the threshold of skill required to make it work is lower than for say paladin. The rest of your post I don't necessarily disagree with. It's just that particular assertion that peeves me. People blame the job because most if its players are bad at it.

-----

NIN is not a great solo tank before Lv.37 without a THF in party, and not before Lv.30, period. Put a DRG + SAM + BLM in party and watch Distortion blow apart monsters and any hope of keeping control as a tank.

That may require shuriken. Since I used them I can't say whether it's possible to do without. But the level 18 shuriken are pretty affordable from and NPC and are simply a godsend for damage and hate. I never had a mob turn from me for long. Of course, I'll admit it's entirely possible that all the DDs I partied with simply sucked.

Anyway, this is a massive derail and I apologize for contributing to it. I'll stop now.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

Warrior deals good damage, can't hold hate that well, and usually takes alot of damage pre-74.

I'm gonna wait to see more data and results from the two-hander update before I lean on old data that may no longer be relevant to how the job tanks.

Most WARs neglect the #1 subjob that helps them continue to generate enmity - Monk. But WAR is also getting hate from dealing damage, something that isn't exactly a strong point for NIN and PLD.

Its my hope that the new generation of WARs takes and keeps GA killed and tries to use the proper tanking sub for WAR at higher levels before they start playing the "we can't tank" card again. But WARs are collectively too chickenshit to stop using /NIN.

I'm personally sick of hearing what jobs "can't" do when I've done them numerous times. CORs can't pull, oh right, explain the high chain I just pulled for with no AoE sleep to back myself. I don't like to pull, but I'll call bullshit on anyone that says I can't do it.

[Malacite]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

DDR

[Murphie]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

Between this and the "official" Wings of the Goddess thread, I've completely lost track of the conversation.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

Low level NIN tank (derail) continuted

That may require shuriken. Since I used them I can't say whether it's possible to do without. But the level 18 shuriken are pretty affordable from and NPC and are simply a godsend for damage and hate. I never had a mob turn from me for long. Of course, I'll admit it's entirely possible that all the DDs I partied with simply sucked.

T_T
I was using shuriken, with R.Acc gears macroed in, using mostly Rice Dumpling or Dorado Sushi, depending on accuracy I was getting. Good enough for newbie DDs, but not against people who know how to set up their characters.

Anyway, this is a massive derail and I apologize for contributing to it. I'll stop now.

Aww. It's a fun and reasonably intelligent derail. =/ Thanks for the heads up on the enmity info.

The dancer outfit doesn't impress me, but I haven't seen it on a Mithra, yet. S-E has been good to the cats when it comes to wardrobe, so I'm sure it'll look nice on my character.

[Skoal]

Re: Dancer new FFXI job? (attn Jei or any Japanese readers)

Between this, the "official" Wings of the Goddess thread, and all the fergie threads I've completely lost track of the conversation.

heh