Haste vs Refueling

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

Hyrist, your classification system seems a little iffy to me. I'll just raise two points:

1. Gravity is evasion down (and movement speed down). Is there an evasion up move which overrides it, like the Frightful Roar vs. Cocoon scenario?

2. Elemental Ninjutsu and Bard's Threnodies are left out of your schema; those are debuffs as well. (There are funny interactions between those Ninjutsu and COR's Quick Draw, which need to be accounted for, if you mean to cover the entire "debuff stacking" topic.)

[Hyrist]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

You are right in one aspect. I was overzelious in grouping certain examples into the first catagory. There is a forth catagory. I was referring to the status effects that directly influence the key stats of a player's or mob's performance during attack.

[However, Gravity CAN be over-written, but not with a direct evasion up aspect. (Simply because the primary debuff of gravity is movement speed.) Flee, directly opposes and overwrites Weighted down. (however it cannot be reversed.) Some of these player abilities do work differently as they have no opposition, I believe I noted that.]

The forth catagory is additional status effects. These add additional aspects to the equation separate from the usual damage calculations. They also come with their own oppositions. For example. While Haste and Slow Oppose, they do not influence Bard equivalents effects.

However, while some of then can influence similar status buffs and damage effects, they are, in fact, not direct modifications in the same sence as the "Attack down/UP" status effects, and therefore can fall in a different place in the final calculations.

For example Protect is a status effect that raises Defence. However, "defense Bonus" such as Cocoon and that provided by Reactor Cool, exist in the same place, in the calculation. Therefore, as Cocoon is more powerful, a Blue Mage can cast Cocoon to overwrite the defense up effect of Rector Cool. If Valor Minuet was cast afterwards it would fall in the line of "Additional Status effects" and fall somewhere else in the category, alone with protect.

A simple way to think of this aspect is that effects that share the same name conflict. Such as Ninja's Jakbu and the white magic Paralyze. They both inflict the "Paralyzed" status effect, and therefore, conflict. (I believe it goes Ichi < Para I < Ni < Para II, but I am not sure.)

So as far as the additional effects go, you can stack non/conflicting ones for additional effect. Such as Slow and Elergy, Blind and Flash. Paralyze, Terrorize, and Stun. Etc.

On the issue of the elemental wheel, Quick Draw, and Theodys, I have little to no experience in. Theody seems to deal directly with our elemental resistant stats (which serve as our 'magical' type evasion.) However as there is no direct indicator for the effects that the Ninjitsu Wheel and Quick Draw effects, I'm rather stumped on the relations.

[Icemage]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

Any RDM or WHM that is even halfway capable should know when your Haste wears off. The same with any other buff we give you.

Truth.

In actuality, although a RDM's MP is more useful than a BLU's in any given Blue Magic point configuration, chances are that a Blue Mage will be able to use their MP offensively in an attack spell much more efficiently than a RDM. It also leaves the BLU a couple more seconds to continue attacking, which is a small perk (since RDMs generally aren't swinging their swords by the time they're casting Haste anyway).

Same goes for a WHM, too, only more so.

As long as the RDM or WHM has the MP to spare, you should always allow them to cast Haste on you as a BLU. Use the MP spent not casting Refueling to cast something more interesting that puts some hurt on the monsters instead.


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

Hyrist's description is dead-on but I think it complicates the matter more than necessary. The best way to approach it is by the names if you ask me.

If two *effects* share the same name, you can have only one. Dia is its own effect so it stacks with Defense Down. Gravity is its own effect so it stacks with Eva Down. Elegy is a different effect than Slow and so they stack. Flash gives Flash status, not Blinded status, so it stacks with Blind or the Ninjutsu version. The Paralyze spell and Jubaku both give the same status of "Paralyze" so they don't stack (that aside, having two Paralyze effects at the same time would be ridiculously broken.) Hojo gives "Slow" rather than "Hojo," so it can't stack with Slow.

On the other hand if the effect has a direct opposite, they can't coexist. Slow vs Haste, Defense Down vs Defense Boost...of course there are some awkward ones like Gravity vs Flee but like Hyrist said the general idea is Movement Speed Down vs Movement Speed Boost; the Eva down is just a side-bonus much like Dia's defense debuff is considered a side-effect (and thus doesn't conflict with Def Down or Def Bonus.) The other series notorious for conflicts is the elemental DoTs, but I think this is the only series that actually causes elemental conflicts. At the very least I know that STAT-Downs and Absorb-STAT don't conflict with each other elementally and you can have as many as you like on the mob, as well as stacking them with compatible Elemental DoTs.

As far as I know, songs don't have opposites so they neither conflict with nor have the ability to overwrite most other things. The main exception would be Lullaby, but the reason for that is obvious. I can't remember how Mazurka and Flee interact but I believe Flee was already the maximum movement speed the game allows either way, so even if they stacked you'd be hitting a cap.

The most troublesome effects tend to be JAs. Some are just plain weird. Boost and Warcry conflict with each other for no apparent reason. Berserk and Defender don't conflict, but actually "merge" and add up their effects (+25% Attack -25% Attack isn't the same as Attack * 1.25 * 0.75) and for some reason also "merge" with Cocoon's Defense Boost. If I remember right from my old MNK days years ago, I think Dodge doesn't count as "Evasion Down" and you could have both up at the same time.

[Hyrist]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

Truth.
In actuality, although a RDM's MP is more useful than a BLU's in any given Blue Magic point configuration, chances are that a Blue Mage will be able to use their MP offensively in an attack spell much more efficiently than a RDM. It also leaves the BLU a couple more seconds to continue attacking, which is a small perk (since RDMs generally aren't swinging their swords by the time they're casting Haste anyway).
Same goes for a WHM, too, only more so.
As long as the RDM or WHM has the MP to spare, you should always allow them to cast Haste on you as a BLU. Use the MP spent not casting Refueling to cast something more interesting that puts some hurt on the monsters instead.
Icemage

Both your and my argument are situational and really depend on the circumstances to heavily to make an overall call.

For instance I can easily Refueling between fights with a casting timer that's far shorter than a WHM's and debatebly the same as a RDMs. In which case I'd rather the WHM cycle on Regen on me and Haste on another member.

Also, if I'm being refreshed as a BLU, I seriously do not miss the 29 MP spent for Refueling I have that back in 1.5 minutes of Auto Refresh, which I get at 58. This isn't even including sanction, MP drain spells, or other Refresh effects.

However, in a situation which something turns wrong, it's the WHM's and RDM's support that's going to get us through, as I may not have the proper spells equipped to handle the situation if it goes ary. With the Static spell list that RDM and WHM have, they most likely will. In those circumstances, the 40 MP loss 3 times per 10 minutes from them can be sorely felt.


The situation would have to be quite ideal to justify the use of TWICE the MP cost in the course of 10 minutes for a 5% increase. In situations like those, perhaps there is something else you should look at, like the use of Dia III or Paralyze II as opposed to a lower tier. These spells may do more than a mere 5% increase for the MP spent.

Speaking honestly though we're getting into a rather small rutt. Most Burn style parties are RDM, BRD, or BRD, WHM. Red and White don't see each other as often as they used to, and in situations like the above, the haster/healer can use the most MP leeway they can get.

[Vyuru]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

I've had Rasp and VIT-Down at the same time (I've had Rasp and VIT-Down at the same time fightning worms.) So you can throw in some VIT-Down from Wild Oats on the mob as well.

So wait, is the Vit Down effect from Wild Oats different from a Dark Knight's Absorb Vit spell?

If so then damn that's sick, if you toss on the four debuffs I mentioned above, Acid Bolts, Dia II, Choke, and Absorb-VIT, then toss on Wild Oats... =o.0=

The four debuffs already are very potent when stacked, not too much of a noticable difference by themselves though, except for maybe the Acid Bolts, I'd be interested in seeing just what all 5 debuffs could do.

[Armando]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

Well, all the melees would gain about 7-8 DMG and the mob's Defense would suck ;3

[Kyrial Arthian]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

It is sort of a dilemma. On the one hand, the RDM or WHM could be very good about keeping you hasted, and you'd have a more potent haste, and could even free up the 4 spell points that Refueling takes to spend them on something else. But even in this situation, something could go wrong (they happen to forget, or they are busy with healing someone or taking care of a link or whatever) and you'd stuck with no haste. I know that, speaking as a WHM, I'm often good at keeping people hasted at the start of a PT, but as the PT drags on, I get bored and start paying less and less attention to keeping people hasted.

In any case, I don't turn down haste, though I do kinda get annoyed when they haste me like 10 seconds after I just cast Refueling on myself... I don't often get hasted anyway, though. They see that I'm keeping myself hasted and worry about others, which is fine by me. Hell, as a WHM, haste cycles were one of the big things that drove me to quit the job and take up BLU. Ever since ToAU, it began to seem like PTs were only inviting me for 2 things: Haste, and Curaga spells (well, and maybe R3 in case they happened to die >.>), with the priority being on Haste. People who haste themselves would have been a welcome thing to me.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

I do kinda get annoyed when they haste me like 10 seconds after I just cast Refueling on myself

Heh, you and me both. I often find myself having to explain to a lot of WHMs and RDMs what Refueling is (among other spells); it seems, with even the overabundance of BLU on Kujata, people *still* aren't aware of what BLU can do (e.g. after a party I had last night, I began to walk out of Aydeewa Subterrane because I stupidly forgot a Warp item, when I came across a LS BLM that was out soloing not too far from my camp. Since he was only two levels above me, I invited him to duo with him for a bit before I asked for a D2. During that time, I spammed a few Frenetic Rips, Dimentional Deaths, and Mandibular Bites to help his exp along, and he was shocked at how fast I belted out twice the amount of damage he was in half the time.)

I get even *more* confused looks and questions when I play my COR.

[Jei]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

Normally, I let BLU refuel themselves. If they ask me to haste them, I'll do. But from a rdm's perspective, BLU not hasting themselves kinda feel just like Rdm not keeping refreshing up : /

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

Hmm. I still have questions about stacking enfeebs.

• Is the effect from Ancient Magic the same "type" as BLM's elemental magic enfeebs (e.g. Burn, Frost, etc.)?
• How many Ninjutsu elemental enfeeb can be stacked on one target? Does it work like elemental magic enfeebs? Or just one at a time?

* * *

I'm going to need a "cheat sheet" to keep all this straight. x_x; If I make one, maybe I'll post another "guide" up. (Yep, taking credit for other people's insights is my specialty. )

[Armando]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

No, it's not the same as elemental enfeebles. Ancient Magic has the same effect as Ichi/Ni/(San?) Ninjutsu. -30 resistance for 15 seconds. This effect *always* happens, and *never* varies. That means even people subbing /NIN can take advantage of it. It's much like Dia in that respect (the initial damage can get resisted, but its DoT and Defense Down will never change.) I haven't done much testing on it but I believe that if you use a new spell before the previous one's effect runs its course, the new resistance down overwrites the previous.

Threnodies on the other hand give -50 resistance (-55 with a Threnody +1 instrument, -60 with +2) and they have a longer duration. However, the effect CAN be resisted.

An odd thing about the effects of Ancient Magic and Ninjutsu is that they're a statusless debuff. When they hit, you don't receive a debuff icon, and in the case of the mob, you never get a "the mob's Resistance Down effect wears off" message. You'll just have to keep track of the time yourself.

To give you an idea of how powerful -30 resistance is...players have a base amount of elemental resistance equal to the value of a C-ranked skill at any given level. E.g. at level 20 any given player has 58 resistance to all 8 elements. The number shown in the equipment screen is simply an amount relative to your base (i.e. 58 +10, 58 -30, etc.) However, due to the testing method involved there's no way to know if it's C-, C, or C+. I'd assume it's simply C. If you compare melee to magic, each job gets an A- or A+ offensive skill and the default evasion for a close-range melee (except for THFs and the oriental jobs) is C. Elemental resistance is sort of like magic evasion.

Of course, since their duration is so short the ninjutsu is hard to use. The best applications in my opinion are ensuring unresisted skillchain damage or help land key enfeebles during NM/Mission/BC fights. By the way, Skillchains follow the "path of least resistance rule," so debuff the weakest element. Try doing a Fragmentation skillchain on a too weak Thunder Elemental and see how the Thunder Elemental's -90%-ish resistance to lightning damage doesn't affect the skillchain.

[Karinya]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

How much good does haste do a BLU anyway? Their normal swings aren't likely to be even 50% of their damage, and reducing their recast timers doesn't help much considering how MP-heavy most of their attack spells are.

15% haste on a DRK can make them do 15% more damage (assuming it's a low enough level that they don't have access to haste gear yet), but I don't see 15% haste on a BLU increasing their *total* damage output by even 10%. And it's basically no help at all to their non-DD functions. So it seems rather silly to spend that much extra MP to go from 10% to 15% haste.

[Hyrist]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

Karinya

For BLU Mage, haste means more than just Sword DoT, our ability and spell timers also get reduced by such haste effects, which really helps in the long run.

Also, depending on the job combination and the situation, a BLU may be sword swinging more than he is casting, dispite the obvious balance towards magic casting as a primary source of DD. This is do to may issues, MP management, hate etc. In which case, haste helps the BLU's DoT by a enough to be noticeable.

However 5% can be negatable if the situation calls for it.

[Icemage]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

From outside observation, it's not so much the DoT from the sword strikes that's noticeably improved by Haste, but rather the frequency and consistency by which Chain Affinity can be used due to more consistent TP gain. Maybe it's just the BLUs I've partied with, but some seem to struggle to get to 100+TP within the recast timer on Chain Affinity, so in that sense it improves their performance.

I agree it's probably less overall effect than it would be when cast on other DDs, but if the MP's there to spend... why not?


Icemage