Haste vs Refueling

[Kasandaro]

Question for y'all, and I can't find it previously answered in the /search.

Haste is 15% over three minutes, while Refueling is only 10% over five. In a party with RDM + WHM, which I've had a lot of lately, I'm finding that I'll have mp to spare. So I ask the BLU in the party if they'd like Haste (I've played BLU, freeing up set points and mp is a good thing). The responses? I've been told everything from "No thanks" to "h3ll no".

So why would a BLU (assume he's fighting colibri, puk, and eruca) prefer Refueling to Haste?

[Armando]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

I'd guess it's most likely because if he had left the Hasting to you, then he's got no guarantee he'll get Haste 24/7. I mean, no offense to you, but let's face it - not all mages are good, and it's not uncommon to see a mage that doesn't keep up a consistent Haste cycle.

Still kinda stupid though.

[Murphie]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

I've always gotten the same sort of responses as well. I definitely understand not wanting to trust the mage to keep haste up (because really, if I'm hasting almost the entire party, which I often was/am in meripo, sometimes someone's haste might have to wait a cycle to come back), but if I've got the MP for it, I'm happy to give it t them.

[Malacite]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

Can't you just override it anyway, given that Haste is a stronger spell than Refueling? It wouldn't be very practical in terms of MP conservation but you could still do it right?

[Armando]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

Not necessarily...a spell's priority and its potency don't always go hand in hand. Acid Bolts (-12.5% Defense) can overwrite (and be overwritten in return) by quite a number of absurdly powerful Defense buffs, Cocoon included. I mean, you could try, but it might not work.

[Hyrist]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

I play both a BLU and a RDM so I'll respond.

40 MP form a WHM or a RDM can be spent in much better ways to assist the party then to hast a BLU who's already providing his own. Remember that a BLU's primary weakness is his short MP pool. Truthfully we'd rather a RDM prioritize Refresh on us than haste. (Remember, a RDM's 40 MP used in refresh translates to 160mp for another job, if you have it spare, refresh a job on a lower priority of the scale, like your DRK.)

40 Mp for 3 minutes vrs 29 mp for 5 translates into a large amount of MP saved over time on account of whoever is in charge of hasting. ( 40 MP 3 times in the course of 10 minutes is 120 MP spent or the equivalent of all the MP a RDM would get form a single Refresh duration, while on the other hand a BLU only casts a 29 MP buff twice, or 58 under half the amount another class could cast.) Sure, a BLU mage looses 5% in the trade off, but towards endgame that does not become very important with a haste gear setup.

With 120 MP saved over that course of time, you can spend such MP in other beneficial ways. Using that MP wisely can equate to far more than 5% haste on a BLU, especially if you are aware of the circumstances closely.

There is also the aspect of the time saved. Casting Haste 3 times in the same course of time a BLU could cast it twice can also allow for better focus. The time (thought admitingly small) you cast on Haste could be spent on another spell, such as a needed cure.

In the end it is just more MP convenient for all that BLU does it himself, and it's best not to argue their personal wishes on the matter.

[Malacite]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

Cool. Also, Armando brought up something off-topic that's been bugging the hell out of me;

Do Dia and Acid Bolts stack? What about Armor break? I'm confused about stacking def-down abilities, assuming you can.

[Armando]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

You can only have one "Defense Down" effect on the mob. And by "Defense Down" I mean the actual status ailment officially recognized by the game as "Defense Down." This includes the procs from corrosive/acid weapons, Armor Break, and apparently Frightful Roar. For that matter, Defense Down and Defense Boost can't coexist. One will always overwrite the other. All Defense Down effects are Wind-based.

Dia/Dia II is its own effect, and on top of that is Light-based so there's no elemental conflicts. You can definetely have both on the same mob. They'd probably stack by multiplication rather than addition just like food and berserk/defender stack by multiplication.

Armor Break is -25% Defense
Full Break is -12.5% Defense
Acid Bolt is -12.5% Defense
Frightful Roar is -10.15% Defense

If you have a Great Axe WAR and a BLU/RNG/THF in the same party, it's preferable to use Shield Break and let the other person take care of Defense Down. Better to have -40 Eva and -12.5% Def than just -25% Def. (For that matter, Shield Break is also preferable due to it's a flat -40 Eva that Sushi can't match in +Acc until MUCH later on, and the fact that Eva Down will help you get TP faster for the next Shield Break, while -Def won't give that benefit.)

Interesting side-note, Berserk/Defender and Cocoon stack by addition. Berserk + Cocoon yields +25% Defense and Defender + Cocoon yields +75% Defense.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

(Remember, a RDM's 40 MP used in refresh translates to 160mp for another job, if you have it spare, refresh a job on a lower priority of the scale, like your DRK.)

Minor correction: Refresh gives the target 150 MP, not 160 MP.

[Vyuru]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

Do Dia and Acid Bolts stack? What about Armor break? I'm confused about stacking def-down abilities, assuming you can.

Like Armando said, think of it as how the games interprets the effect's symbol.

Def down effects cover: Armor Break, SS+Jump, Full Break, Acid Bolts, and Frightful Roar. You can only have one of these on at any one time, I don't know the overwrite order.

Dia is it's own seperate symbol, Dia II overwrites Dia

Blm elemental enfeebles have their own symbols, opposing elements cancel/overwrite each other. So like you can stack Burn, Choke, and Shock together. Choke is wind based and overwrites Rasp, earth based, and Frost, ice based, overwrites Choke.

And you can stack two Dark Knight Absorbs on a target as I recall.

So to my knowledge, all the vit/def debuffs that you can have on a target at any one time are:

Acid Bolts
Dia II
Choke
Absorb-VIT


Get those all on a mob and rip them apart, I really love having a Thief and a Dark Knight in my parties Good skillchain partners for a Dragoon and the mages can cover the Dia/Choke aspects of it.

[Armando]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

The Stat-Down series (VIT-Down, STR-Down, etc.) stacks with the BLM DoTs, too, for whatever it's worth. I've had Rasp and VIT-Down at the same time (I've had Rasp and VIT-Down at the same time fightning worms.) So you can throw in some VIT-Down from Wild Oats on the mob as well.

As for overwrite order, I tried to find a pattern for Armor Break and Acid Bolts in Brenner but I couldn't find anything at the time. I'd apply one first, sometimes the other would overwrite, sometimes it wouldn't. The same thing would happen inverting the order. I don't know about Frightful Roar, and I've never had Full Break. No clue on SS Jump either (thanks for reminding me of that.)

[VZX]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

I prefer to do refueling for myself rather than telling the RDM to haste me everytime the buff wears off.

[Murphie]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

I prefer to do refueling for myself rather than telling the RDM to haste me everytime the buff wears off.

Any RDM or WHM that is even halfway capable should know when your Haste wears off. The same with any other buff we give you.

[VZX]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

weird, I rarely found those

[Hyrist]

Re: Haste vs Refueling

About Stackable Debuffs.

Each section of a major stat aspect have 3 factors to consider.

First and most easily altered is the Resulting status. In this case attack, defense, accuracy, and evasion. (There are variants of these on the magical spectrum as well.)

Most monster attacks work to reduce these primary factors. As far as players go, various jobs have skills spells, or status items that will directly influence these factors. (For example, Shield Break, Dodge, Acid Bolts, etc.) Spells of direct opposite nature tend to over-write depending on last order used. For example, Cocoon will overwrite Frightful Roar's defense down, and can be overwritten by any Defense Down attack. Noted, effects like Defender and Berserk are unique effects and do not function in the same manner.

The secondary factor directly deals with the modification stats. These are the base stats of any creature, STR, MND, etc, and can also be directly influenced through a different line of abilities. However, it is noted that not many job classes can raise their base stats through an ability. (( Noted spells an abilities is Hasso, Lunar Roar, and the Absorb line.))

The third and final section is the "element enfeeble" status effects. This is Shock, Rasp, Choke, Frost, Burn, Drown, Dia, and Bio respectively. These are generally magical in nature and effect the status that their element is dominant over, for example Choke, which is wind based, will lower Vitality, which is Earth based.

The thing to be noted on these kinds of enfeebles is that they overwrite and prevent each other if the spells conflict. For example Shock will Overwrite and prevent Drown form being recast, unless it is overwritten by Rasp. This groups spells into their light/darkness in manners of being stackable.

For example, the light based debuffs. Shock, Choke, and Burn, can all be stacked together, as can drown, frost, and rasp, which are the darkness end of the elemental spectrum.

Dia and Bio work in paclular way. Bio will overwrite and prevent Dia of the same Tier, and be overwritten by Dia of a higher tier. A good way to display this is as follows:

Dia < Bio < Dia II < Bio II < Dia III < Bio III

It should be noted that there are no elemental debuff enfeebles for accuracy or evasion that deals DoT.


Stacking these buffs and debuffs can be the key to shifting the tide of a battle.

For example, grouping Defense Down with Dia effect, Vit Down, and Choke, will severely hamper a monster's defensive capabilities. While casting Attack Down, Bio, Drown, and Str Down can incredibly hamper a monster's total damage, which is extremely good for endurance battles with a Paladin tank.

Knowing which debuffs (and buffs) your party can inflict and how they relate can be extremely useful in many situations. I'd recommend going to the FFXI Wiki site to explore what abilities inflict what status effect if you are interested.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Main_Page