Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

[Ziero]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

Acc helps melee accuracy, 2 dex = 1 acc. A +5 acc ring is the equivilent of +10 dex, but seeing as you can't get +10 dex in a single finger slot, the acc rings are better for TP gain. And at your lvl you have access to a lot or nice +acc gear to help your meleeing. And unless you have a parser to back you up I doubt it's 90%+ acc. Even fully Acc geared, +A skilled weapon melees won't have a 90%+ acc rate. You can barely get that on TW mobs, let alone IT exp mobs.

Now I'm not too sure about the Blu spells part of the equation, but I do know that Acc gear with Att food will provide better melee Dmg results then Dex gear and sushi. Acc works on a percentage, and after a certain point increasing it will start to show lesser results. Att and Str on the other hand will always increase your hit per hit Dmg, helping you do more Dmg in less swings. Now again, I don't know which stats help Blu spells land, but I do know which stats help build TP, and for that real Acc+ gear is better then Dex gear.

[nanatsu]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

If physical blu magic shows a greater increase in effect from melee stats like accuracy and attack, then accuracy and attack will always be better than dex and str. Accuracy and attack will have a more prounounced effect on melee weapon skills, TP gain, and melee damage in general. I hear blu say that their magic depends on their accuracy and attack. Well, it makes sense that equipment that give actual accuracy and attack would help more than str and dex. Str and dex do help accuracy and attack as mentioned before, but aren't nearly as effective as items that have accuracy and attack stats on them.

Now if blus are saying that str and dex have some other effect on blu magic then that's something else. I have read that some blu magic have stat modifiers like chr and int. it's possible that a lot of spells rely on dex as a stat modifier as well. But if physical blu magic is affected by a blu's accuracy and attack ability, then accuracy and attack equipment and food are what's needed.

Accuracy is always > dex. Attack usually trumps str. The only accuracy that helps magic for other traditional mage jobs is Magic Accuracy, which is different from normal Accuracy that melees use.

[IgotGAME]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

Thanks for the info guys...for some reason there are a lot of BLU Spells that give +DEX, but I don't think there are any that give +ACC. With my gear and spells I get roughly +22DEX without food, but spells make up at least half of that.

Now I guess I need to re-evaluate the gear I am wearing. What are some good +ACC items you know of right off hand?

Does ACC have its on stat category or does it show up on DEX or does it not show up at all? I just don't remember seeing ACC anywhere.



Just glancing it seems like I would benefit more from Rice Dumplings than Sole Sushi.

[Taskmage]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/adva...&sort_by=level

[Icemage]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

They're two totally different jobs. In terms of being able to sustain damage, and deal out an array of melee and spell damage (both in terms of physical, magical and debuff damage - as Black Mages damage is purely *magical*), Blu/Rdm is a vastly stronger choice than Blm/Rdm, due to gear, spell choices etc.. If you're looking at who kills Elementals better - then I agree that Blm/Rdm is a stronger choice of jobs. But to qualify a job as better - when they are distinct, is like me saying Ninja is better than White Mage. Nonsensical much?

I was pointing out that BLU mains get very little in terms of tangible benefits from /RDM other than Fast Cast, an unreliable Resist Petrify trait and a less-than-half-strength Phalanx.

Your argument about BLU/RDM being better than BLM/RDM at more varied attacks and defense is circular logic. Blue mages are simply more varied in their attacks and defense than black mages are - and they gain far less from subbing RDM than black mages do due to their lack of other magical skills.

This makes /RDM a weaker and less obvious choice for blue mages than for black mages, who can take full and effective advantage of the additional spells and abilities from a /RDM sub.

Doesn't make /RDM useless for blue mages, since I'm sure there are times when having 10 extra damage mitigation or a 10% improvement in cast and recast times is handy for things like Headbutt, but that still does not make it per force an equally good sub for blue mages just because it's good for black mages.

The purpose of looking at these subjobs is to see what additional performance you can cram out of them. I'm not going to say that - Dispel makes Blu/Rdm because I don't believe it does - however... the job has potential that isn't tapped by many people playing it. They don't tap it's utility or crowd control abilities (having a light *and* dark based sleep effects for one). They don't use /Latent gear - as most don't know about it *or* have the ability to get it.

Blu/Rdm's using the latent gear can pretty much lock out any single ws effect if they have hare fingers enough (to use an analogy), and potentially can have an easier time landing physical magic SC's followed up by Blue Magic MB's.

Blu/Drg's geared for haste and accuracy can very nicely stun lock a mob into submission, and are ideal for long recast timers being back up - things like Sheep Song for example.

Blu/Drk geared for combat provide great DoT and physical magic, with boosts to MP and physical stats.

Blue Mage isn't as cut and dry as Black Mage, or Warrior, Dark Knight, White Mage, Bard (names most other jobs), etc.. as to be frank - I don't think we're even touching the sides with a job this complex. In many respects it can land enfeebles easier than a Rdm (due to physical accuracy), has crowd control similar to Brd and more... and I'd be willing to stake my FFXI account that within the next six months something will be discovered about Blue Mage that changes the way it's played totally and its uses in missions etc..

Blue mage is a very flexible job and can take on many roles, but that does not mean that we can't make value judgments about the relative merits of various subjobs as things stand right now (you don't see anyone championing BLU/SMN for instance, despite the "obvious" benefits of Auto-Refresh, Max MP Boost and Aerial Armor).

Blue Mage isn't just another DD. It has aspect of DD, but it's more than that. Can I tell you ever facet that Blue Mage has going for it? Not yet - as my personal belief says we as a community only scratching the tip of the iceberg - and even now it's being pigeonholed into something conventional to suit the lack of experimentation which is to be perfectly frank - becoming a tad stale...

I like the flexibility of blue mage a lot. It morphs very fluidly from attack to defense and can cover a lot of ground when configured and equipped properly, and I agree that, with the huge list of available spells, we'll continue to discover new tricks and tactics in the coming months.

However, as things stand right now, there are definite preferences shaking out of the mix for various activities (just as it has for every new job that has ever been introduced) and I think it's a fair statement to say that there are some subjobs which simply don't do much of anything in common usages like XP parties, barring any future drastic changes to the job.


Icemage

[nanatsu]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

Thanks for the info guys...for some reason there are a lot of BLU Spells that give +DEX, but I don't think there are any that give +ACC. With my gear and spells I get roughly +22DEX without food, but spells make up at least half of that.

Now I guess I need to re-evaluate the gear I am wearing. What are some good +ACC items you know of right off hand?

Does ACC have its on stat category or does it show up on DEX or does it not show up at all? I just don't remember seeing ACC anywhere.



Just glancing it seems like I would benefit more from Rice Dumplings than Sole Sushi.

Off the top of my head Combat Caster's Scimitars are primo weapons for a Blu at your level. They give accuracy +3 and attack +5.

[IgotGAME]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

Taskmage

Thanks for that link...helps a lot


EDIT: Will adding something with ACC +1 make your DEX increase by +2 or does it not show up like that?? For example, if I had nothing on and my Dex was 10 and I added something with ACC+1 would my Dex then be 10+2??

[Spinnthrift]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

I am not saying that Blu/Rdm is the be all and end all sub. I am however saying that it's worth consideration - for fast cast and /latent gear.

It's not circular logic. I would get into a whole arguement defining it, but I won't suffice to say - I was stating the bleeding obvious, not trying to create a false arguement.

I might take this time to remind you about the premier DD of 51-60... Nin/Blm, who really get all those fearsome Blm spells to cast... oh wait - they don't. They use one trait from Blm and kick out damage. Cost - well.. through the roof - but that's an example of not getting the most out of your subjob. Best damage dealer - blows Blm out of the water. As in /goodbye.

Hang on, that must be gimpy and not get the most out of their subjob.. oh.. wait... no. it's coming to me... Best DD... unusual combination... maybe someone was seeing potential that others weren't.

Now - I'm not saying it's the best subjob, I'm giving you basic examples of how/why it's not worth discounting.. because truth be told.. if I went through half the spells on my spell lists - looking at each sub job combination and spell selection in any real depth... I'd be posting from now until 2010 - on that one topic. It's not like Cure V where you cap out one spells healing potency. Not that simple.

And no - it's not always tangiable - it's not obviously ZOMG damage. Else we'd all play War/Nin's and Nin/War's and... oh.. bollocks.. we already do.. I guess you're right... let the exp/hr brigade commence.

- Saeriel

[Krondorn]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

Wow. Y'all stayed on topic for a whole of two replies... Thanks, though. I wasn't aware that /NIN was being questioned in general. Shame on you, IgotGAME! It's you're fault everyone got off topic.

[Feba]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

Anyone else appreciating the irony in this turning into a subjob discussion? :D

[SonikU4ia]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

I am not saying that Blu/Rdm is the be all and end all sub. I am however saying that it's worth consideration - for fast cast and /latent gear.

It's not circular logic. I would get into a whole arguement defining it, but I won't suffice to say - I was stating the bleeding obvious, not trying to create a false arguement.

I might take this time to remind you about the premier DD of 51-60... Nin/Blm, who really get all those fearsome Blm spells to cast... oh wait - they don't. They use one trait from Blm and kick out damage. Cost - well.. through the roof - but that's an example of not getting the most out of your subjob. Best damage dealer - blows Blm out of the water. As in /goodbye.

Hang on, that must be gimpy and not get the most out of their subjob.. oh.. wait... no. it's coming to me... Best DD... unusual combination... maybe someone was seeing potential that others weren't.

Now - I'm not saying it's the best subjob, I'm giving you basic examples of how/why it's not worth discounting.. because truth be told.. if I went through half the spells on my spell lists - looking at each sub job combination and spell selection in any real depth... I'd be posting from now until 2010 - on that one topic. It's not like Cure V where you cap out one spells healing potency. Not that simple.

And no - it's not always tangiable - it's not obviously ZOMG damage. Else we'd all play War/Nin's and Nin/War's and... oh.. bollocks.. we already do.. I guess you're right... let the exp/hr brigade commence.

- Saeriel

This still doesn't explain why BLU/RDM is better than BLM/RDM, or even why BLU/RDM is worth anything more than other subs, like BLU/THF and even BLU/NIN which is the topic in question. Its more speculation than anything at best.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

Because they're two different jobs:

Blm/Rdm - sleep nuker, high damage output but elemental/dark only, dark only crowd control.
Blu/Rdm - melee tank, crowd controller, stun locker, DD (both physical and magical).

Basically... What /Rdm gives you is a quicker response time on your spells and access to /Latent gear which improves your physical magic accuracy and damage far more than anything you have access to at that level in those slots, with the exception of /Rng, which gives you no real benefits other than Acc + Widescan.

Not to mention Enhancing Fast cast /Latent gear, and improved /Latent HMP gear, which as any good mage will tell you, is very very important (especially since Blu doesn't get access to the Seer's equipment).

In terms of straight damage, /Rdm offers less than /Thf. I am not nor have I ever argued otherwise. I play Blu/Thf for pure DD, Blu/Drg for crowd control and long recast timer spells and Blu/Rdm for mob locking and other assorted roles that rely on fast response.

And Blu/Nin is for people who a: haven't learned to control their hate, b: think two swords is cool, c: general people who've not actually tried figuring out what a job is capable of, d: getting party invites because everyone thinks you should be subbing Ninja when in fact there's a ton more subs that are useful (and e: when you need to do something when you can't rely on other people, like Add Duty, for example) f: good for Solo/Duo.

And no.. it *isn't* speculation. It's maths and practice. Something I have done. And got the equipment to go see the effects. I have enough /Latent gear now to make valid choices on subs that define a jobs role by their effects alone.

Blue Mage = any number of jobs. It's most effective role at any of them, depends on the spells you set, the subs you choose and the gear you put along with them.

Go figure... like say... Warrior. Give it /Drg, and it's a fast tp gaining debuffer, give it /Nin - and it's a dual Axe tank/DD machine, give it /Thf and it's a pure damage monstrosity, give it /Whm and it's a beautiful CoP Wyrm tank...

Even Whm has the option to go DD/Tank... and can be very strong at it, with the right subjob and gear.. Healer going to DD... bit of a turnaround no?

I'm sure I've not answered your questions... but there wasn't really a question in there. No set up of Blue Mage is the right one. It all depends on what spells you set and what role you're filling. For unadulterated DD, /Thf has no real peer post 30. For other roles, other subs have more merit. What you do with that... is up to you.

[Araius]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

One of the things I think many people have yet to come to grips with about BLU is that we are, without question, the most flexible job in the game in a party setting. Giving up our "Melee DD niche" isn't such a bad thing if you have a party full of DD and need an extra healer more, or a enfeebling or even nuking mage. Ever tried /BLM or /RDM to boost those Magical spells? Try it some time, you might be surprised how truly efficient it can be.

Now granted, if you're trying to be a melee DD and you're subbing anything but /THF, I'd have to question your logic. A fully unresisted physical spell plus extra damage every 60 seconds is going to out-parse damn near everything else imaginable. But if your party already has plenty of damage and needs more mage power, why not mix it up a little? That's one of the great things about BLU, is our ability to fill almost any role.

As for the /NIN question...honestly, I think it's crap, in a party setting. Before 74, the only uses I see for it are for a BLU-burn party or soloing (of which I've done my fair share of, and I do like /NIN for those). If anyone can show me a BLU/NIN outdamaging a capable BLU/THF with equal gear and levels, I'll have second thoughts.

[Lmnop]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

To actually hit the OP conversation...

I don't think /nin is really so terrible. It's true that most people don't understand the benefits of Dual Wield properly -- I have a guy in my LS i've had to explain 3 times that DW does not double your damage. And it's true that a party of shadows makes very lazy mages. But it's also true that it's a great tool to have. Rng/nin, thf/nin, especially war/nin, and now Blu/nin. They all come under fire every day as cookie cutter etc etc. It doesn't take long searching the Warrior forums for my posts to see that I hate /nin myself. But this is where the game is now and this is what's most effective a great deal of the time.

I have a friend who's whm 75, and almost every other mage job 60+. What I like about him is that he doesn't get the smn/whm complex ("I've already leveled whm, I feel like i'm doing it a 2nd time with smn"), he's content and extremely able to heal when he's playing blm or blu or whatever. If he's being useful to the party, he's happy. With that said, he almost always finds himself /nin for his BLU, despite having every mage job, war, and - now that he's 60, he's getting his thf up before he levels more. Well, the point is he finds it useful and indispensable.

He says it all comes down to SC time. No matter how much you control your hate, there are DD no-no's and BLU self-SC/MB does all the taboo. Every JA draws hate, Big Numbers draw hate, casting spells draws hate and then pull more hate when their effect takes place. So a BLU activates 2 JAs (CABA), maybe even 3-4 (SATA, though their hate gain is extremely low) Uses a WS and then does their own SC and MB. Did I mention SC closer gets hate of the SC as if it were their own dmg?

Re: blm/rdm vs blu/rdm.

I think you lost focus of what icemage was talking about, spinn. It's not about what blu/rdm can do. Its about what /rdm offers blu vs what it offers blm.

Example: our friend /nin!!! war/nin gains these benefits from /nin:
-damage increase via dual wield
-shadows

sam/nin gains these benefits from /nin:
-shadows

See? Sam gets benefit from it (in fact, third eye to cover your utsusemi: Ichi casting kicks ass) but they really only get half the subjob. They aren't gonna dual wield so that 15% delay reduction is pointless.

The same could be said of blu/rdm, because they get less than half of the SJ. They already get stoneskins, cocoon gives a similar result as phalanx, they can't debuff with /rdm spells w/out innate enfeebling skill, and they already have some cures. /rdm does give them regen, more flexible cures, magic attack/defense bonus, clear mind, etc, but they can't gravity a mob indefinately and kite a T mob to death w/out getting hit like a 75 blm/rdm will.

Instead you do blu/nin and straight tank the mob and not have to rest afterwords. >.>

[Spinnthrift]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

okaaaaay.. *sigh*

No - I really didn't miss the point, and I am well aware of the benefits of /Rdm for Blm...

However... it's like comparing chalk and cheese... and saying well.. chalk is better because it's porous.

But you can't really eat chalk now can you? Where as cheese is yummy.

See the nonsensical? That's what it's like.

/Rdm does lend itself very nicely to Blm. Won't nor will I in future argue otherwise. I would be stupid to. But... this is a thread about 'Blue Mages'.

Now... going back to Blue Mage/subs discussion.. or rather... the hijack turning this into another subjob discussion...

Blue Mage subs (with their equipment) define the Blue Mage's role. That's fact.

Without the right setup, you'll be a very poor crowd controller, a mediocre DD, a poor support/enfeebler etc.

Blu/Rdm lends itself to a certain style, that not even /Thf or /Nin can boast. Same as /Drg - own unique style and performance. Same even as /Brd (which has some amazing solo potential for Blue Mage, not that many people will ever try it out). Each job, it's traits, JA's, spells and it's relevant latents and gears available define Blue Mage into new roles. Not the same role. Not what you'd call cookie cutter - because the cookie cutter role for Blue Mage, is actually not even coming close to putting out a decent output - Blu/Thf does that far more effectively.