Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

[DakAttack]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

So you sacrifice your damage dealing niche for slightly more utility? Most of the job abilities the mage jobs have to offer can be obtained through spell combinations anyways, and let's not even kid ourselves about latent effects on equipment, how long are you really going to wear it? Better equipment will come along and suddenly the benefits of your Rdm sub job will be insignificant.

Why not just invite the War/Drk? He get's more MP, some Atk bonuses, Souleater, Weapon Bash, and more! Oh is it because for his particular niche and party role there's better choices? Ah, I see, thank you Dak for pointing that out.

You're welcome.

[Sarren]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

/whm and /rdm definitly have some advantages. They allow you to take on a role /thf, /war, /nin can't. Last party I was in I main healed as a 45 blu/whm. It was supposed to be a joint effort with another blu/whm, but I found his version of helping consisted of curing after some...constructivly worded encouragment after I'd run out of MP or casting over my after battle group cures well after the gather for healing message had gone off. Still managed to put out very respectable damage for someone main healing and made very nice use of the debuffs in our arsenal at this level.

[Taskmage]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

That was a pointless example to make. war/drk gets no benefit from more mp, whereas a blu obviously does. blu/mage simply focuses on dealing damage more through spells, which do benefit from magic attack bonus and increased casting stats, rather than focusing on increasing their relatively weak melee damage. Would you invite a paladin using 1H sword as a DD using any sub? Probably not. Clearly it's the offensive magic that makes the difference, which is what blus that are subbing mage are trying to augment.

[Feba]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

So you sacrifice your damage dealing niche for slightly more utility?

hai2u BLM/WHM

[DakAttack]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

That was a pointless example to make. war/drk gets no benefit from more mp, whereas a blu obviously does. blu/mage simply focuses on dealing damage more through spells, which do benefit from magic attack bonus and increased casting stats, rather than focusing on increasing their relatively weak melee damage. Would you invite a paladin using 1H sword as a DD using any sub? Probably not. Clearly it's the offensive magic that makes the difference, which is what blus that are subbing mage are trying to augment.

That's sort of my point. The Blu's magic spells, sort of redundant, will never achieve anything similar to what the Blm can, but the Blu's physical spells can achieve something similar to any other damage dealer. It'd be easier to compete with melee damage dealers in terms of damage for party invites than the Black Mage.

I suppose depending on what role you're filling you might choose a mage sub job, such as /Whm for healing or /Blm for nuking and magic bursting, but /Rdm? Blu are most reknowned for their ability to self skillchain and magic burst it, as well as the the unresisted damage of their physical spells. Subbing Rdm doesn't exactly assist well in any situation, it's just the product of a lazy Rdm.

I know I'm not the only one who noticed a drastic increase in physical magic resists while subbing a mage job.

[Taskmage]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

/rdm gets the nod over /blm for providing Cures and not entirely useless enhancing magic while still providing the same amount of slotless MAB as /blm until 60, and fast cast is a very small bonus but nonetheless there.

I'll grant that /thf and possibly /war are probably better subjobs for straight damage dealing capacity than a mage sub, but you originally said you couldn't see why anyone would sub it at all. I'm saying there are reasons.

"Damage-dealing niche" is an oxymoron. Half the jobs in the game are DD, and that's not even counting pup, thf, or cor. In contrast there are relatively few jobs that can cure, restore status and provide other necessary support worth a darn, which is usually a function of mp. Blu can lean either way as needed.

[Rai]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

I was talking to a friend of mine about BLU. He is a BLM and he subs RDM. I have watched him solo VTs at lvl 75 with ease. It is so amusing to me to see a little Taru BLM solo stuff that would destroy me.

what does /rdm offer

job Traits:

10 Resist Petrify I
15 Fast Cast
20 Magic Attack Up I
25 Magic Defense Up I
30 Resist Petrify II
31 Clear Mind I
35 Fast Cast II

Key spells:

21 Gravity
32 Dispel
33 Phalanx
34 Stoneskin

[DakAttack]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

/rdm gets the nod over /blm for providing Cures and not entirely useless enhancing magic while still providing the same amount of slotless MAB as /blm until 60, and fast cast is a very small bonus but nonetheless there.

I'll grant that /thf and possibly /war are probably better subjobs for straight damage dealing capacity than a mage sub, but you originally said you couldn't see why anyone would sub it at all. I'm saying there are reasons.

"Damage-dealing niche" is an oxymoron. Half the jobs in the game are DD, and that's not even counting pup, thf, or cor. In contrast there are relatively few jobs that can cure, restore status and provide other necessary support worth a darn, which is usually a function of mp. Blu can lean either way as needed.

You're right, and I probably should have worded my point better. When competing for a position in a party, as well as performing after being chosen for said position, it would be much more efficient to choose the appropriate sub. How many people really persue a healer or nuker position as Blue Mage? How many people would actually invite them to fill that role? Not many if any, though that doesn't stop any Blu from subbing a mage to fill their usual DD role.

It reminds me of leveling my Warrior/Ninja on one of my first characters. It became increasingly difficult to find parties because back then people didn't really know what a War/Nin could do, or what is was for. Do I tank? Do I deal damage? I took invites for anything and I was most often invited to tank while my gear was set up to deal damage. Eventually I had to conform to what role I was wanted to fill, which I suppose served a purpose because now all War/Nin are DD. My gear changed and so did my tactics, and I did a pretty good job, but there was still better choices for tanks.

What I'm really just trying to say is choose the sub that compliments your role, and avoid as much friction as possible. It wont all seem like a wasted effort in the end, and you wont be known as the guy who did it the other way and failed.


Also, there's so many DD only because of how players classify them. If they can't tank as well as a Pld or Nin, they're not a tank. If they can't heal like a Whm, they're not a healer. If they can't nuke like a Blm, they're not a nuker. If they can't support like a Rdm or Brd, they're not a support job. If they're none of the above, they're a melee DD!

[Icemage]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

BLU/RDM isn't nearly as good as BLM/RDM.

Gravity won't land, since you have no native Enfeebling Magic. Phalanx is far weaker (-10 damage instead of -22 at level 75). Dispel is very sketchy unreliable with no native Enfeebling Magic skill. Stoneskin is weak without Enhancing Magic skill.

Not to say BLU/RDM is totally useless, but you don't really "need" any of the above since blue magic has direct equivalents for most of them.


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

Hence why I called enhancing spells from rdm "not entirely useless." ^^ I don't think they'd make or break any deals, but they are there and they are something unlike practically all spells offered by blm. As I said somewhere else, I've never seen a blu/mage actually cast any of the /mage spells.

I think, Impaction, that we are mostly in agreement. You want to have the sub available that best fits the role your party expects you to fill, or if they're indifferent, whatever you see that they need most. If you were to amend your earlier statement to say "Why anybody would sub only mage jobs to Blu is beyond me" then I would fully agree.

[Rai]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

ahh, I see. The RDM spells are useless to a degree on BLU, but Fast Cast, Magic Att and DEF seem nice to me. but passive traits are overlooked when choosing a sub.

[Taskmage]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

There is all also the fact that Impaction brought up that blu can get access to a lot of those traits just by setting the right spells. Getting them from sub basically gives you "free" spell slots to spend on other traits and abilities.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

BLU/RDM isn't nearly as good as BLM/RDM.

They're two totally different jobs. In terms of being able to sustain damage, and deal out an array of melee and spell damage (both in terms of physical, magical and debuff damage - as Black Mages damage is purely *magical*), Blu/Rdm is a vastly stronger choice than Blm/Rdm, due to gear, spell choices etc.. If you're looking at who kills Elementals better - then I agree that Blm/Rdm is a stronger choice of jobs. But to qualify a job as better - when they are distinct, is like me saying Ninja is better than White Mage. Nonsensical much?

Not to say BLU/RDM is totally useless, but you don't really "need" any of the above since blue magic has direct equivalents for most of them.

Icemage

The purpose of looking at these subjobs is to see what additional performance you can cram out of them. I'm not going to say that - Dispel makes Blu/Rdm because I don't believe it does - however... the job has potential that isn't tapped by many people playing it. They don't tap it's utility or crowd control abilities (having a light *and* dark based sleep effects for one). They don't use /Latent gear - as most don't know about it *or* have the ability to get it.

Blu/Rdm's using the latent gear can pretty much lock out any single ws effect if they have hare fingers enough (to use an analogy), and potentially can have an easier time landing physical magic SC's followed up by Blue Magic MB's.

Blu/Drg's geared for haste and accuracy can very nicely stun lock a mob into submission, and are ideal for long recast timers being back up - things like Sheep Song for example.

Blu/Drk geared for combat provide great DoT and physical magic, with boosts to MP and physical stats.

Blue Mage isn't as cut and dry as Black Mage, or Warrior, Dark Knight, White Mage, Bard (names most other jobs), etc.. as to be frank - I don't think we're even touching the sides with a job this complex. In many respects it can land enfeebles easier than a Rdm (due to physical accuracy), has crowd control similar to Brd and more... and I'd be willing to stake my FFXI account that within the next six months something will be discovered about Blue Mage that changes the way it's played totally and its uses in missions etc..

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I don't think people should sub only mage jobs to Blue Mage, as Taskmage has said... varying between /Drg, /Nin, /Rdm, /Whm, /Thf and /War and /Drk for parties/quests/bcnm's/missions and /Nin, /Whm, /Rdm and /Bst for solo - depending on what I'm fighting against.

Blue Mage isn't just another DD. It has aspect of DD, but it's more than that. Can I tell you ever facet that Blue Mage has going for it? Not yet - as my personal belief says we as a community only scratching the tip of the iceberg - and even now it's being pigeonholed into something conventional to suit the lack of experimentation which is to be perfectly frank - becoming a tad stale...

- Saeriel

[Feba]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

BLU/RDM and BLM/RDM are completly different subs, honestly.


/RDM on BLU is mostly for the Latent Effect gear, on top of Fast Cast, MAB+Cures(sub WHM or BLM and you miss out on one or the other), and mostly stats.

/RDM on BLM is mostly for the spells such as Gravity, along with a minor INT boost. I still say that if a BLM really wants to take an offensive role, they should sub NIN, but that's a different subject for a different day.

[IgotGAME]

Re: Something that bugs me about BLU subjob disussions...

I use /RDM for the following right now:

- Latent affects
- Fast Cast
- Can help Cure if need be (I find myself casting Regen on Tanks more often than WHM's)
- Melee damage is higher than WHM/BLM
- EN spells to help with Additional Effect DMG (doesn't seem like much, but 3-4hp per swing about 10-15 times a fight can sometimes make a difference)

In regards to what stats I increase...Someone mentioned earlier that I shouldn't worry about DEX. (even though DEX is what helps your land melee attacks)

My STR is +13 or 14 and my DEX is +29 and my ATT is +15 or +20....The reason I have DEX so high is because I noticed when it was around +12 or so that I would miss way more often than I do now...being able to land my sword as many times as possible is key in building my TP which is why DEX is so high. My STR and ATT are also increased a good bit as well and go up more when I eat Sole Sushi. So, at this point I have no problem landing my spells and I am landing my sword attack 90% of the time so why would I want to increase ACC over DEX? I thought ACC was just for Magic spells?

Can anyone enlighten me here? amd I doing something wrong? I do skillchains for roughly 600-700 DMG in quicksand caves when I let my TP get to 200+, which only takes 1 fight sometimes because I land almost every swing. Is there something I am missing here?