Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

[Olorin401]

My LS leader recently mentioned something that made a lot of sense.. He just recently got Zenith Mitts for his secondary character and wanted to know if it was more useful to swap in some extra INT (say Errant Cuffs or Yigit Gages) when fighting HNMs.

The idea is that HNMs tend to have higher INT and built-in magic resistance (not including cumulative resistance) so the extra INT is more useful than Magic Attack Bonus during during these long fights, because more INT can reduce resistance.

Anyone done any testing on this sorta thing?

[Coinspinner]

Re: Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

I've seen threads on the Killing Ifrit BLM forum that argued for a build with 320 elemental Skill and as much INT as you can get (130+.) There was some small scale parsing that backed it up, with large decrease in resist rate and large increase in damage, but not enough tests to be certain IMO. The main thread I'm thinking of actually started as a question about Nashira vs. Yigit feet.

It makes perfect sense, as we've known for years that having INT lower than your target would lead to an atrocious number of resists just from watching poorly geared BLM's performance in ye olde exp parties. But I guess nobody bothered to check what each HNM's INT was, despite having the formula available and every damn BLM screen capturing their damage numbers.

If you can derive an HNM's INT stat then you can come up with the minimum INT we should nuke with. Then it's time to parse and see how much an additional 10 int would help...

Edit: You obviously want max damage setup when using Elemental Seal. So Zenith/Yigit are still useful even if this INT strategy pans out. And AF (& AF+1) are still needed as the most convenient way to reach 320 skill.

[Callisto]

Re: Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

Not testing, but I can tell you for a BLM using Tier 4, MAB is all around better. Aside from the fact it will tack on more damage, MAB will add more damage onto a partially resisted spell than INT gloves would. Yigit Gages would be a nice piece to use, and comparable to Z. Mitts(I'll run the #'s later when I'm not so busy and give you the theoreticals)...but I'll say this for sure, if you're worried about resists then go for AF+1 gloves. No amount of INT you can stack in that spot will make up for +15 Elemental Skill.

As always, I'd more than anything recommend getting Goliard Cuffs, MAB+4 and a MAcc boost as well.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

Here's the blasted thread. It's up to you if you wanna wade through the crap.

[Callisto]

Re: Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's going to be hard as shit to actually figure out the INT of an HNM and peg where the accuracy/damage/diminished returns breakpoints are. HNMs all get special treatment in terms of job/spell/ability combos, no doubt do in stats as well, and most probably have an innate magic damage- % to boot, not to mention the fact of actually trying to record data during said fights while trying to do your actual job may prove difficult.

At best I can try to work on Kirin the next time we do it. It'll be easier to figure out their innate magic resistance if I can peg how much Quick Draw from our COR does, since the formula on that is pretty consistent, from there I can take how much damage our BLMs do and what their stats are, and go ahead and work the formulas backwards. Hopefully we'll be doing another Kirin run next Friday, I'll see what I can do.

[Olorin401]

Re: Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's going to be hard as shit to actually figure out the INT of an HNM and peg where the accuracy/damage/diminished returns breakpoints are. HNMs all get special treatment in terms of job/spell/ability combos, no doubt do in stats as well, and most probably have an innate magic damage- % to boot, not to mention the fact of actually trying to record data during said fights while trying to do your actual job may prove difficult.
At best I can try to work on Kirin the next time we do it. It'll be easier to figure out their innate magic resistance if I can peg how much Quick Draw from our COR does, since the formula on that is pretty consistent, from there I can take how much damage our BLMs do and what their stats are, and go ahead and work the formulas backwards. Hopefully we'll be doing another Kirin run next Friday, I'll see what I can do.

I've been paying attention to my damage rates on stuff like Sea NMs, DL and Wyrms (for those not on Ramuh, my LS claims Tiamat a LOT and we're starting to camp Vrtra and Jorm a lot too) and I'm constantly getting shafted on resists.. we're talking 200 dmg from a Freeze 2. I know part of it is that I only have three merits into Elemental Magic, none into INT and I'm Elvaan lolgimpblm0rz! and I'm gonna be working on those soon (I'm almost capped in BLM specific merits).

[Coinspinner]

Re: Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

Ahaha, thanks! I did not expect somebody to actually step up and try. I know it's a difficult thing to test but it should at least be attempted.

[Callisto]

Re: Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

for those not on Ramuh, my LS claims Tiamat a LOT

'til we start camping it. Duh duh daaaaaahhhhhh!!!

[Mog]

Re: Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

Why does KI make everything difficult to understand? :/

My two cents:

Each mob is different. Obviously, the higher level the mob is, the more it's going to resist due to the level difference. All I can say is that a very select few mobs you should stack elemental gear to ensure less resists. I'm talking about the high-end HNM's. However, the lower-level HNMs you just need to experiment. Some people still use max elemental gear. Some mix in some elemental gear and intelligence. Some use all intelligence and MAB gear.

Who's to say who's right? All you can really do is experiment on the mobs you fight and see for yourself how often you get resisted. It's honestly not that hard.

1) If you get resisted a lot, then MAB and intelligence gear won't mean anything if your nukes are getting resisted. Consider adding more elemental magic skill gear to match the mob you're fighting.

2) If you don't get resisted as often, see what happens when you tone down your elemental magic gear and stack MAB and intelligence.

Really, it's just a matter of experimenting yourself and seeing what style fits each mob best. No person can tell you how to play this game.

[FatCharlie]

Re: Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

Since I read this post I changed my gear setup on my BLM for an Elemental Magic setup for Kirin fights. I use a Black cloak, AF hands, Elemental Torque, and Druid's Slops. I have noticed a significant increase in my resisted amount damage and fewer resists. The first few Kirin fights I went in with the typical MAB/INT+ build and was incredibly disappointed by my performance.

[Mog]

Re: Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

Since I read this post I changed my gear setup on my BLM for an Elemental Magic setup for Kirin fights. I use a Black cloak, AF hands, Elemental Torque, and Druid's Slops. I have noticed a significant increase in my resisted amount damage and fewer resists. The first few Kirin fights I went in with the typical MAB/INT+ build and was incredibly disappointed by my performance.

QFT

I've got full elemental magic merits, and when I went to fight Kirin with my INT/MaB gear, I got resisted like you wouldn't believe. But....when I switch in my Sorc hat, wizard's gloves, and torque, I notice a great increase in my overall damage.

[Kafeen]

Re: Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

(for those not on Ramuh, my LS claims Tiamat a LOT and we're starting to camp Vrtra and Jorm a lot too)

Only 'cos noone else was playing 4am new years morning.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

Well yeah, AF hands is a no brainer vs. HNM. What were your actual stats for each of these battles? Those guys on KI were raving about 320 elemental skill. With that number as the goal, looking at the available elemental skill gear it mostly seems to be a question of MAB vs. INT, rarely skill vs INT.

Merits + AF hands + Torque + Relic Hat = 324 skill

Body
Errant/Mahatma vs. Igqira
10/11 INT vs. 5 skill & 6 MAB

Legs
Errant/Jet/Mahatma vs. Druid's
7/8 INT vs 5 skill

Feet
Yigit vs. Goliard vs. Nashira
3 INT & 2 MAB vs. 4 INT & 2 MAcc vs. 5 skill & 2 MAcc

Ear
(various) vs. Novio+Moldavite
4 INT vs. 12 MAB

Ring
Snow Ring vs. Sorcerer's Ring
5 INT vs. 10 MAB

Back
INT cape vs. Merciful Cape
5/4/3 INT vs. 5 skill

Again, I've got no idea if what they're saying (skill's effect diminishing over 320, INT needing to exceed the target's) is really true or not, but it's something to try.

[Mog]

Re: Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

I have 334 Elemental Skill with all of my elemental gear combined. As far as int goes, 76 + 29.

If you have the elemental skill to back it up, it's hard to see why MaB < Int on HNM's. Next time I fight kirin, I'll play around with it.

EDIT:

MaB wins hands down, as long as your elemental magic skill is high enough for the HNM you're fighting. (whatever that may be.. )

[Olorin401]

Re: Zenith Mitts vs. HNMs - Not so good?

Only 'cos noone else was playing 4am new years morning.

It was 2AM, and those of us who were on that night were enjoying the New Year. Nothing wrong with having a little fun and celebrating with friends, especially when it doesn't cost 100 bucks a head for a crowded bar and half a glass of champagne, not to mention gas... urgh!