BLM/NIN in Exp Party

[Sabaron]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

The actual debate on this thread ended several months ago. It's a necro from April. What Malacite wants to discuss is the usefulness of BLM/NIN in light of the new possibility: BLM/SCH, and I think I'll put myself on the side in favor of BLM/SCH > BLM/NIN.

With respect to the new issue brought up by Malacite which is /SCH:

/SCH has a lot to offer and squashes /NIN very effectively.

/NIN is not useful until 30th level when you get access to Ichi Elemental Jutsus (EJ:I), while /SCH is useful at 20th level with Dark Arts.

Dark Arts gives the following bonuses:

• MP Cost -10%
• Casting Time -5% to -10%
• Recast Time -10%

The other effects of Dark Arts are immaterial to a BLM's Nuking abilities.

EJ:I give only one bonus: -30 Resistance for 8 seconds (enough for one cast of any Tier III or lower single target nuke or Tier II or lower AoE nuke (Tier III AoE is getting very very close to 8 seconds casting time).

What else does /SCH give?

Parsimony @ 20th level: 50% MP cost savings every 4 minutes.
Alacrity @ 50th level: 50% faster casting and recast times every 4 minutes.

Cures up to tier III.
Stealth Spells
Regen up to tier II.
Shell and Protect up to tier II.
Raise

My original argument is that /NIN improves your MP/HP efficiency and at the time was a good one because /NIN was the only reliable way to do that before your Ninja tanks start tossing EJ: Ni. The bonuses from /SCH are quite formidable and definitely worthy of the new "BLM Nuking Efficiency Blue Ribbon". I'm not sure if anyone has done any significant testing on Magic Accuracy and Resistance, but I'm thinking -30 resistance is going to equate to something less valuable than a 10% MP Cost reduction on every spell plus a 50% reduction to one spell every 4 minutes. This notwithstanding the myriad of other abilities /SCH gets and the decreased likelihood that BLM/SCH will cause wild thrashing and hand-wringing among the /WHM purist crowd though complaints about lack of Status cures are expected even though my point only deals with maximization of MP efficiency of nuking and not adding to BLM's supporting role.

IMO, BLM/NIN is effectively dead... Gunned down by BLM/SCH in a late-night nuke fight unless someone can show me numbers for Resistance/Magic Accuracy rates and numerically define how much "Chutzpah" -30 Resistance has.

---------------------------------

One other thing to remember: Choosing /SCH leaves you completely defenseless--No Blink, no Stoneskin--nothing between you and slavering beastly jaws but some Shock Spikes and a temporary tattoo (weskit).

[Coinspinner]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

I'd like to add this. Even with a PT setup and target that makes BLM/NIN viable or ideal (unlikely now due to /SCH), if you don't know and/or trust the people you are grouped with to do their jobs you should still come /WHM. Sometimes a PT looks pretty tight while you're in town then you reach the camp and it crashes and burns. Fighting Torama, I once had a WHM who took 20-30 seconds to cure status even while standing... which he persisted at even after I started handling all the status cures myself.

Well, now we have SCH so.... yay! ^^
BLM/NIN and NIN/BLM for the win!
... that is all.

BLM/SCH will improve nuke efficiency and grant Cures, sure, but it lacks any defense for the BLM himself. Yet another situational alterna-sub.

It's a pity SCH itself doesn't have MAB, or I'd try out SCH/NIN.

Edit: Oops, didn't see the third page.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

Playing Scholar in Valkrum Dunes, I noticed in one party that the Tarutaru BLM was consistently nuking harder than my Mithra, probably due to Magic Attack Bonus, while our resist rates and degree were roughly the same.

I won the the damage game anyway--with ease.

Why's that? I had a larger MP pool thanks to years worth of low level MP gears I had accumulated, an MP merit, Melon Pie (vs. his Ginger Cookies), some occasional Pineapple Juices, plus the MP saving from Dark Arts. Combined, I could nuke more. A lot more.

Nukers at that level rely on chain casting a series of small spells (tier 1!) every fight, and can count on party resting every few fights if not after after every fight. So, anything which contributes to the ability to keep tossing out spells--such as a larger MP pool and Dark Arts--helps out overall damage greatly.

But, my BLM experience tells me it's not a sustainable strategy.

Fast forward to when the time consuming tier III single target or tier II -ga spells and chain 5 parties, and the resist rate will matter a lot more. You won't have as much time to replenish MP, so economizing the Damage/MP ratio would likely have a greater impact than relying on a deeper MP reserve.

Nothing a BLM himself can do to lower resist beyond piling on Elemental Magic skill, which is sadly unavailable at Lv.30. (Lv.35 has the very expensive Elemental Earring, which I can't afford. -_- I don't expect others to have it, either.) Except /NIN, that is, and the -ton Ninjutsu set which comes with it.

I don't think BLM/SCH will blow BLM/NIN out of water. BLM/SCH definitely has its shining moments, but so does BLM/NIN, still. That said, BLM/SCH would be easier to play "correctly", and the ability to cure in emergency has my nod as the more recommended of the two choices.

In random PUGs, though, I'd still go with BLM/WHM myself. >_>; The melees do enough damage these days to make my MP more valuable for cures and status removal than damage, at least some of the times.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

You're forgetting some things /SCH will give:

- 10% off cost of spells under Dark/Light Arts, this is way more signifigant for higher tier spells than it is lower tier.

- 50% off Cost of spells every four minutes. That's as good as it'll ever get since /SCH only lets you store one strategem.

/NIN isn't really that useful after 30 for BLM. Halved ninjutsu skill - enough said. You'll see more resists the higher you get. MAB might get you a little love for a little while, but those tricks will mean nothing at 50+.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

I didn't forget the advantages of /SCH (esp. since Sabaron listed them two posts before mine), but there's just not that much time for casting, even with Dark Arts's fast cast. In any case, it's all speculation at this point; need people with actual party experience to report how the two compare.

Agreed that /NIN's -ton spells would be less meaningful post Lv.51, with elemental staves available.

* * *

Plus, even if /NIN would win the damage contest at some levels (as I think it would), I'd still recommend /SCH over it for most people. The ability to toss out a few cures every now and then is just too useful to ignore.

[Malacite]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

/NIN is really more of a soloing SJ now (always was, just more so now)

Also, doesn't Dark Arts boost your skills above their normal caps? (If they're B+ or higher)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

/NIN is really more of a soloing SJ now (always was, just more so now)

Unfortunately, I saw a very effective BLM/NIN in a Lv.32-ish party before. I was BLM/WHM, and he blew me away. ._.

So, no, it's not for every party, but it can work in some parties.

Also, doesn't Dark Arts boost your skills above their normal caps? (If they're B+ or higher)

No. >_>;

As BLM56/SCH19:
Divine: 52
Healing: 52
Enhancing: 153
Enfeebling: 178
Elemental: 185
Dark: 183
(All capped)

With Dark Arts active:
Divine: 52
Healing: 52
Enhancing: 153
Enfeebling: 184
Elemental: 185
Dark: 183

The only skill boost a BLM/SCH on Dark Arts gets is to Enfeebling Magic.

[Malacite]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sch...-imminent.html

Yeah you're right, I just misread the pics in the OP >< (didn't see the switch from WHM to RDM lol)

Even still, dark arts is bad ass.

[Sabaron]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

Playing Scholar in Valkrum Dunes, I noticed in one party that the Tarutaru BLM was consistently nuking harder than my Mithra, probably due to Magic Attack Bonus, while our resist rates and degree were roughly the same.

I won the the damage game anyway--with ease.

Why's that? I had a larger MP pool thanks to years worth of low level MP gears I had accumulated, an MP merit, Melon Pie (vs. his Ginger Cookies), some occasional Pineapple Juices, plus the MP saving from Dark Arts. Combined, I could nuke more. A lot more.

Nukers at that level rely on chain casting a series of small spells (tier 1!) every fight, and can count on party resting every few fights if not after after every fight. So, anything which contributes to the ability to keep tossing out spells--such as a larger MP pool and Dark Arts--helps out overall damage greatly.

But, my BLM experience tells me it's not a sustainable strategy.

Fast forward to when the time consuming tier III single target or tier II -ga spells and chain 5 parties, and the resist rate will matter a lot more. You won't have as much time to replenish MP, so economizing the Damage/MP ratio would likely have a greater impact than relying on a deeper MP reserve....

So in your opinion, BLM/NIN is still viable at 30-39 range before EJ: Ni and 40-50 depending on whether or not you have a NIN tank who is cycling EJ: Ni? You don't think the 10% and 50% cost savings will come up better than -30 Resistance?

I still want to know what the value of a point of resistance is, but I don't think anyone knows with any certainty.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

So in your opinion, BLM/NIN is still viable at 30-39 range before EJ: Ni and 40-50 depending on whether or not you have a NIN tank who is cycling EJ: Ni? You don't think the 10% and 50% cost savings will come up better than -30 Resistance?

Don't know for sure, but I suspect lower resistance would give better performance. Definitely not for parting with a proper NIN tank Lv.40-50-something, spamming the wheel. (Think we already covered that aspect, didn't we?)

Basically, it comes to which is more valuable: Time, or MP, or Versatility?

If "Time": /NIN may win.
If "MP": /SCH definitely should win.
If "Versatility": /WHM wins!

For PUGs, BLM/WHM is still the most versatile, but /SCH is still much safer than /NIN and easier to use.

[Krut]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

At the end of the day, a blm who is unable to toss out the odd cure to help out your party is just leeching. -Kirsteena

Leeching? You mean like shortening fight time by roughly 1/3 becuase we do massive damage? hmm yeah I CAN see how that is leeching.

Take for instance your tank sucks, and doesn't turn say, a tiger, away from the mages. Whm gets caught in Roar (AoE Paralyze effect). That whm can't get paralyna off, because they are paralyzed. Blm should have ability to throw out paralyna, doesn't. -Kirsteena

In your standard party the mages stand together, our blm friend here would be paralyzed too, and unable to toss out aformentioned spell.

Even at endgame, on blm, most of the time I am on /whm...etc. -Kirsteena

Yeah this guy is level 33... he hasnt even seen the elemental staves for blm yet, basically +int is gonna be all he can do to build his spell potentcy. /nin is gonna give him the same INT boost (base) as /whm and give him the ability for another 5 on top of it. Endgame is endgame. As /rdm at 75 i'm only getting ~2 more INT than as WHM anyways, but I'm a taru so INT means crap to me i stack up on MA+ and skill+

/rdm is a soloing, not a party sub.-Kirsteena

I agree except in Manaburn.

Sub what you want, as a black mage it isn't going to change your job much, because at the end of the day everyone is just gonna call us to party so we can blow s#!t up.

Final Note
Kirsteena, seems like I disagreed with you a lot. Well I did in a few spots however not completely because I'd like to make it clear that I am a tarutaru, one race which has difficulty in neither INT or MP. I'd like to quote a good friend of mine.
"If you're an elvaan, and you're a black mage.. you might as well just jump off a bridge.."-Willium of Garuda

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

Yeah this guy is level 33...

You're a bit behind the times; the OP was made back in May.

That poster is RDM75 now, and least BLM61--he was asking question about Sorcerer's Ring a week or two ago, as a matter of fact. Don't worry about him being "not advanced enough".

The discussion has moved on from INT+ wands, as well.

In your standard party the mages stand together, our blm friend here would be paralyzed too, and unable to toss out aformentioned spell.

No standard party works like that--only bad parties with idiots. (And, no, not all parties are full of idiots.) Mages don't care much about Blind, STR down, and other melee related status effects., but they pretty much have always stay away from front lines battling monsters with AoE damage, silence, paralyze, sleep, etc.

If you haven't been doing that yourself, I highly recommend it. >_>;

[Krut]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

The whole party full of idiots thing was uncalled for, If your Tank loses hate, and hes goin after your whm, the AOE (No matter what it was) is gonna hit everyone because there is no camp (that I can remember) with a wide enough camp area to avoid this (Exception for puk and imp camps)

I'm going to agree with you though, fighting mobs with AOE status effects as bad as paralyze then you're asking for trouble.

Sorry about posting about a post that was months ago lol I didn't realize this was a 3-pager.

Lets face it though, blms are better off soloing or manaburning
and before you start chirping with OMG HE SAID SOLO lol. I soloed 30-65 manaburned 65-67 soloed 67-73 manaburn 73-74 solo 74-75. Now I merit in nothing but manaburns because everyone else seems unclear on black mage abilities.

[hongman]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

["If you're an elvaan, and you're a black mage.. you might as well just jump off a bridge.."-Willium of Garuda

This pretty much invalidates anything you say, if you can even quote that you are obviously very shallow :x

[Krut]

Re: BLM/NIN in Exp Party

Well ur not gonna sit there and tell me, in the end all merited and all geared towards black mage supremeness, that of all the races Elv isn't pretty sloppy compared to the other races as blm.

I'll be the first to say I'd prefer a Galkan or Elvaan PLD over a taru
Or a Mithra ninja over all other races.
Call me crazy but id prefer base INT of 79 over 67 and base MP of 858 over 599 for a blm. That's just my opinion.

I'd take a Galkan BLM over an Elvaan BLM any day of the week.