15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

[Sabaron]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

I like BLM/NIN (I posted parses in another thread). Your suggestion about the jutsus being cast by the THF or RNG is a way to go, but unless it's necessary that you use your mp for curative purposes (The RDM is already subbing WHM and you have a PLD tank, so I'm thininking the RDM can handle it), I would recommend subbing NIN for at least one level. I went full-wheel when I did it from 30-36, and it worked excellently. Your Ichi Elementals do nice damage (nicer than a NIN/WAR's I noticed) and they make your mp more "efficient". You will also, yourself, not absorb any of the RDMs MP since you'll be using Utsusemi instead of Blink to take hits. This also allows you to over-nuke by 1-2 nukes and still get through it unscathed.

However, since you don't have a dedicated WHM, your healing role may be preserved in this PT. If the THF or RNG throw jutsus, they'll be very, very weak, and in order to keep up with you, they have to basically become your devoted servant. This strategy is really only viable with Ni elementals thrown by a real Ninja.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

*sob* I miscalculated; I only did 15% of the healing, not 18%. I feel even more useless now. >_<

* * *

Elemental Ninjutsu from /NIN is fine for the purpose, BTW, from THF or RNG or BLM; see Armando's A new use for /NIN thread. The Ichi -ton spell will land for nearly no damage from THF or RNG, but more than makes up for the cast time by lowering resists for SC effect.

While they may or may not enhance accuracy enough to make a difference for MB nukes, outside of MB's those Ninjutsu do help free nuking a great deal. The trade off is not damage--any DoT damage the RNG or THF loses I can more than make up from nukes following the -ton's. It's more of an issue of complicating RNG's and THF's duties and slowing their TP gain, and whether the additional damage is worth the trouble to them.

The kicker is, though, higher we level, the more useful the technique becomes.

As the THF level, the more damaging SATA Viper Bite becomes--making damage enabled from the same Ichi spells even greater from unresisted Distortion. The same goes for spells; right now I only have Tier II singles and mostly Tier I AoE nukes, but imagine the amount of damaged to be gained moving from just 1/8 to 1/4 resist on Tier III single or Tier II AoE.

So, even if this idea is only so-so at Lv.47, it may have real merit a few levels down the road.

The more I thought about going BLM/NIN, though, the worse it sounds. The RDM will have Haste duty soon--if anything, I should be doing more curing, not less, in the future.

* * *

In case I didn't make it clear, while Black Mage by nature seems to be a damage dealer, if my party would benefit more from my MP by curing instead of nuking, I'm perfectly willing to nuke less and cure more.

Either way, it can't be a bad thing to make any nuke I cast more efficient; 2.31 dmg/MP seems a bit low. ^_^;

[Toksyuryel]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

One way you can reduce your resist rate is by casting Shock, if that's what you are concerned about. I remember that for the better part of my mid-level career I would cast Shock and then Burn immediately after the mob was pulled, and then throw out my biggest nuke (a decent PLD with a THF backing him up will hold hate). Never ever cast AM except for emergency situations. Even bursted it's a total waste of both time and MP. (Note: AM2 does not seem to share this distinction; it's quite rather awesome in factaru^^)

To echo what everyone else is saying though, no you are most certainly NOT leeching. Most BLMs get 0% healing, you are very valuable to your party.

[Sabaron]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

Burn, not Shock, has been iirc the spell that has been tested in the case of Black Magic Resists. Shock assists with White Magic resists. It [Burn] does help a bit.

The healing bit is quite a conundrum... BLM doesn't make a very good healer (about SMN strength with no free refresh and less mp). Besides that, healing diverts a good portion of your attention away and eats up enmity that could've been used for nuking. You may wish to restrict Haste to tank only once that comes up (that's what I usually end up giving in a party where I am main healing). That new action in the cycle will only slightly reduce your RDM's healing time.

If you're already set in to the role of a shared healer, then there's not much you can do about it. Your efficiency will be bad since you have no Healing Magic skill except from sub, and you'll be limited to Cure III.

So, in summary:

1. Sub-onry Healing Skill (may affect Cure output before capping)
2. Cure III top end
3. Greater Enmity from Cures = Less availability for Nukes
4. Greater MP usage with long spans of downtime

I'm sure you've mained before on RDM. You should be able to see where this is going, and, at least from my perspective, the prognosis is rather negative. If you cross that line from tertiary healer (PLD > RDM > BLM) to secondary healer (PLD > RDM <= BLM), your performance will be rather unappetizing.

The RDM and PLD should be able to handle the healing exclusively for most of the time. I think your focus, regardless of actions of the other party members, should be on causing damage rather than repairing it. I think you're trying to put on your Warlock's Boots again when you should be wearing Wizard's Sabots.

There may be some times when you need to throw a save Cure, but if it's not time for that, don't throw any.

Another thing to consider may be giving up your Refresh and Juicing/Resting to give the RDM more time and mp to devote to healing.

[Toksyuryel]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

It is widely accepted that INT has absolutely nothing to do with resist rate and it's been tested and re-tested and re-re-tested that MND definitely seems to have *something* to do with resists (across the board, not just for white magic). I can say from personal experience that I saw my resist rate go down once I started using Shock (I *was* using only Burn before for quite a while before someone told me to try Shock too).

[Icemage]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

You're not exactly leeching. The problem is your static party needs some tweaking or you'll continue to struggle.

PLD, MNK, RNG, THF, RDM, BLM.

Replace the MNK with a BRD and you'd be at a classic 3/3 setup. Replace you as BLM with a BRD or Corsair and you have a TP burn (but your RDM had best be spot on along with your PLD).

The fact that you're doing 15% of the curing highlights the support problem. This is going to become much worse once you hit the higher levels, since this setup doesn't need nuking for damage.

When looking at your numbers, remember you're competing against 3.5 damage dealers (MNK, RNG, THF, plus some extra damage from the PLD) and 2 full time healers (PLD, RDM).

I'm not saying your static party is bad... but it seems pretty inefficient. I wouldn't even try to set up a pickup party with this configuration, let alone a static party.


Icemage

[Icemage]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

It is widely accepted that INT has absolutely nothing to do with resist rate and it's been tested and re-tested and re-re-tested that MND definitely seems to have *something* to do with resists (across the board, not just for white magic). I can say from personal experience that I saw my resist rate go down once I started using Shock (I *was* using only Burn before for quite a while before someone told me to try Shock too).

Widely accepted where?

INT most definitely affects resist rates when your INT < Target's INT, and has a mild effect even when your INT > Target's INT.

Shock has never, ever affected my resist rate on BLM or RDM for black magic.


Icemage

[Tirrock]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

I see people mentioning Chi Blast a lot. Chi blast isn't very useful in an exp situation, outside of starting to boost up while somebody is afk and hoping they get back before boost wears.

You can boost up to 12 times in a row, and chi blast damage is effected by three things. Number of boosts, MND, and AF gloves (which enhance boost). The damage of a 3 boost chi blast is laughable (50 damage). A 10+ boost chi blast without MND gear might get you 250-300 damage before AF gloves. Between pulls you'd likely get about 3 boosts, since boost is on a 15 second recast timer.

The monk cannot melee while boosting, or he'll lose the boost. And a monk's melee damage definitely outweighs a fully boosted chi blast on exp monsters.

Off the topic of boosting and chi blasting... What was this static made for? I didn't see it mentioned. If it was made for fun; friends exping jobs together, then I really wouldn't worry too much about it. If you guys made this with the goal of getting 75 in those jobs as fast as possible without resorting to pick up groups, you'll probably want to look into those set-ups Icemage mentioned. (Bard + Red Mage always equaled awesome for me when I was leveling Monk.)

If you want to boost your damage a bit, look into moldative earring. +4 magic attack bonus, I think it is. I don't think you can solo the NM on your RDM, but you could likely duo it with somebody else your level. As others mentioned, after level 51, things look up. I got frustrated with BLM at the levels you're at. Then I got elemental staves and my damage got better, then AF gloves and shaman's cloak and I rarely saw resists, even when casting fire on crabs.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

You're not exactly leeching. The problem is your static party needs some tweaking or you'll continue to struggle.

PLD, MNK, RNG, THF, RDM, BLM.

Replace the MNK with a BRD and you'd be at a classic 3/3 setup. Replace you as BLM with a BRD or Corsair and you have a TP burn (but your RDM had best be spot on along with your PLD).

Hmm. I always thought BRD + PLD + THF = trouble? Besides, THF's effectiveness before Lv.60 largely depends on someone who can turn the mob on demand, and that is our MNK. ^_^;

Unfortunately, my BRD isn't high enough, and COR is still at Lv.1. Besides, our LS is short on Black Mages, so I don't really want to level another job in place of my BLM.

Before the RNG joined, we did pick up a BRD's and COR's before. I did more damage percentage wise then, but so did everyone else. Having RNG just meant damage output is spread across more people--and actually having a regular SC for me to MB with.

The fact that you're doing 15% of the curing highlights the support problem. This is going to become much worse once you hit the higher levels, since this setup doesn't need nuking for damage.

[...]

I'm not saying your static party is bad... but it seems pretty inefficient.

Maybe I did a poor job of explaining this, but 15% of damage or 15% of cure isn't really the problem; the problem is that my output--that's damage and curing both considered together--doesn't seem "high" enough. At least that's how it feels.

I suppose I should just be content that I provide additional safety via ES + Sleep and Escape, and can annihilate just about any single monster if we have the need (though would have no MP afterwards), on top of the somewhat depressing DD and healing output.

Right now, we chain 4-5's pretty easily; one reason I don't get a lot of MP rest time is because monster die pretty fast. Given that this is an static party from our LS, no one terribly minds the lack of uber efficiency anyway.

Really, I just feel bad I'm not doing more for the party, but at a lost as to the best way to fix the situation.

I see people mentioning Chi Blast a lot. Chi blast isn't very useful in an exp situation, outside of starting to boost up while somebody is afk and hoping they get back before boost wears.

For our party, it's just more damage. We have to compete for pulls often, so there can be lulls between monsters. The MNK boosts between fights, so he often tosses out a Chi Blast before using Provoke to set up SATA for the THF.

Chi Blast helps the monsters to die a little faster--it's good.

[Tirrock]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

THF+PLD+BRD does equal trouble, unless you have a RDM, which you do. The problem is that bards don't get selective ballads that ignore people without MP, despite popular belief by BLUs everywhere. Since the PLD has refresh going for him, he wouldn't have to worry about needing ballad.

[Sodo_Leviathan]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

Btw your fighting Bats they really dont take much damage from spells try your best to enfeeb

[Karinya]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

You're not exactly leeching. The problem is your static party needs some tweaking or you'll continue to struggle.
PLD, MNK, RNG, THF, RDM, BLM.
Replace the MNK with a BRD and you'd be at a classic 3/3 setup. Replace you as BLM with a BRD or Corsair and you have a TP burn (but your RDM had best be spot on along with your PLD).

My first reaction would be to replace the RNG with a COR. They're almost as good pullers, have some very nice support functions and the party has more damage than it can use anyway (pre-74).

That would leave the MNK and THF in the same SC box at 65+, though. Maybe it'd be better to replace the THF; a good PLD shouldn't need one unless the DDs are exceptionally reckless.

BLU might also be an option; in addition to some job-specific debuffs that stack with the RDM's, they could take up some of the support healing. Their ability to produce more skillchains fits well with a RDM+BLM party, too.

In any case, the point is likely moot; once a static has formed it would be very rude to boot someone because the setup isn't optimal. Unless someone has another job at or near the party's level and is willing to change, you'll probably be limited to adjusting to make what you have work. It's not theoretically perfect, but it's not horrible either.


I have never seen TP burning work before level 74 unless it was on colibris. Nothing else is helpless enough unless everyone has Utsu:Ni. So I would strongly advise against trying to set up a TP burn static unless it is for merit only.

The fact that you're doing 15% of the curing highlights the support problem. This is going to become much worse once you hit the higher levels, since this setup doesn't need nuking for damage.

That's the main problem with the party setup IMO - 4 damage dealers is just too many for anything but very weak mobs, and BLM performs relatively poorly against weak mobs.

The shortage of defensive jobs in your party is why they need you to take up more healing and support responsibilities, but BLM is only mediocre at those roles. Furthermore, half of the debuffs you *do* have duplicate the RDM's; a BRD+BLM can stack Slow and Elegy, but a RDM+BLM can't.

Still, I think both your personal performance and your party's will improve noticeably after 51, so it may be a good idea to hang in there for a few more levels and then reevaluate.

When looking at your numbers, remember you're competing against 3.5 damage dealers (MNK, RNG, THF, plus some extra damage from the PLD) and 2 full time healers (PLD, RDM).
I'm not saying your static party is bad... but it seems pretty inefficient. I wouldn't even try to set up a pickup party with this configuration, let alone a static party.

It wouldn't be my first choice, but a full static has several advantages over a partial one, even aside from the benefit of hanging out with your friends. No time spent looking for a 6th, can camp anywhere without dealing with strangers who don't trust your unorthodox choice of campsite, etc. I think these can go quite a ways to offset the disadvantages of the setup.

And I *definitely* wouldn't set up a pickup party with this configuration unless I was the BLM or knew them well. With 90% of the BLMs in this game that setup would be a disaster waiting to happen. Only a few are even capable of adapting to what the party needs them to do in that setup to make it work.


P.S. If you are using Regen - and you probably should, it's MP efficient and nearly hate free - keep in mind that parsers don't see the amount healed by Regen either. So you're doing more damage *and* more healing than the parser knows about.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

A little update: It's a Lv.54-52 party now (yes, we go slow), and I'm enjoying BLM more than ever.

Not sure about my damage/curing output, though; been forgetting to turn on the parser in the last few weeks. When I did remember last night, it barfed and lost all my data.

Last night in Kuftal Tunnel was the first night I attempted to MB with Freeze on a regular basis. Unresisted, the MB results were 1004 when I was Lv.52, and 1026 once I hit Lv.53. (Around 944 at Lv.52 when it is resisted, IIRC.)

It was a little unnerving to see crabs coming after me even after a sucessful SATA Viper Bite, plus Provoke and Flash from Paladin. ^_^; (Good thing it wasn't very often--my BLM take hits worse than a wet paper bag--though I do appreciate the opportunities to use Drain effectively.) I became reacquainted with my good friend, Mr. Blink.

The RDM friend wasn't feeling well, so she logged on to the PLD's char and the regular PLD played RDM. (PLD is less demanding.) So, I ended up doing Barwatera and all the Regen's, since the substitute RDM was a bit overwhelmed. It's a little thing, but made me feel useful. heh.

Not stressing out over my performance anymore; I'd much rather enjoy the company of our little band in the time we have. (Instead, I stress out over gears I can't afford. -_-; )

[Macht]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

A little update: It's a Lv.54-52 party now (yes, we go slow), and I'm enjoying BLM more than ever.
Not sure about my damage/curing output, though; been forgetting to turn on the parser in the last few weeks. When I did remember last night, it barfed and lost all my data.
Last night in Kuftal Tunnel was the first night I attempted to MB with Freeze on a regular basis. Unresisted, the MB results were 1004 when I was Lv.52, and 1026 once I hit Lv.53. (Around 944 at Lv.52 when it is resisted, IIRC.)
It was a little unnerving to see crabs coming after me even after a sucessful SATA Viper Bite, plus Provoke and Flash from Paladin. ^_^; (Good thing it wasn't very often--my BLM take hits worse than a wet paper bag--though I do appreciate the opportunities to use Drain effectively.) I became reacquainted with my good friend, Mr. Blink.
The RDM friend wasn't feeling well, so she logged on to the PLD's char and the regular PLD played RDM. (PLD is less demanding.) So, I ended up doing Barwatera and all the Regen's, since the substitute RDM was a bit overwhelmed. It's a little thing, but made me feel useful. heh.
Not stressing out over my performance anymore; I'd much rather enjoy the company of our little band in the time we have. (Instead, I stress out over gears I can't afford. -_-; )

Thing that has me wondering and a little sad is:

1) RNG/NIN and only got 24% of the overall damage? I mean it sounds like that person was holding back, but why??? They got Utsusemi they should be skipping past that hate line and be closer to the top as the one doing the damage. Yet it seems like the MNK was more likely to be doing that then the RNG??

2) RNG/NIN with a PLD/WAR and THF/NIN in an exp party, that RNG should have a tough time being able to pull hate from those two if done right and should be able to go nuts on damage. Then again also with a PLD and THF the RNG/NIN combo with them is kind of the 'Safe' combo, could of dished out far better damage with a RNG/WAR setup if he could do that.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: 15% of damage, 18% of curing...?!

1) RNG/NIN and only got 24% of the overall damage? I mean it sounds like that person was holding back, but why??? They got Utsusemi they should be skipping past that hate line and be closer to the top as the one doing the damage. Yet it seems like the MNK was more likely to be doing that then the RNG??

*shrug* He was new to the party at the time, and was a level or two behind the MNK; we kinda badgered him into joining because people wanted a full party. Maybe he didn't have very good gear then? Perhaps either bow or crossbow was under-skilled?

Our style is to do SC at the beginning of fight, so he saves TP and doesn't spam WS's. Also, he used to stand close to the monsters, which he doesn't do anymore. I think the MNK was at same level as the PLD at the time, if not higher, so no surprise he was the top DD, especially since he gets to spam WS.

better damage with a RNG/WAR setup if he could do that.

The RNG is currently our main puller, so /NIN is handy. I guess he can switch with THF for that role, but I don't think our party really needs more damage capability. heh.

Edit:
The MNK is very well geared--including a Ochiudo's Kote, borrowed from the RNG...