Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

[Karinya]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

If we're going to talk about bad BLMs, we should talk about bad players in general.

The problem is NOT with the BLM job. The problem is that there are players out there who never learn from their mistakes, and I see that at every job. It's just that there are some jobs where it's more clearly visible than others (PLD, NIN, RDM, BLM, WHM).

Who can tell if the Monk in your party has terrible playing skills? I certainly can't unless he makes a fundamentally stupid mistake like using the wrong WS. All he really has to do is hit a skillchain once in a while (and if it's a TP-burn, he doesn't even have to do that much). Who can tell when the DRK in their party has terrible playing skills? Aside from the occasional Stun, does anyone really pay attention to what their Dark Knights are doing? Not really.
I posted it up above, but it bears repeating: There are bad players in every job. 10% of players are great. 50% are average. The rest generally suck. That's my rule of thumb, and it holds true at every job I've seen in FFXI. It's just more noticeable with BLMs because they're glass cannons.
Icemage

This is mostly true, but you left out: it's very, very, VERY, party-endingly noticeable for pullers.

You're right though, most DD it's hard to tell if they are good, bad or mediocre, unless they do something like step on the skillchain. But an unskilled BLM, WHM, NIN, RNG is a disaster waiting to happen. When those jobs screw up, people die.

[Eauijhkuu]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

Yup.

I thought my friend was kinda mad when he decided to take DRG to 75.
Cuz he statics his PLD with my THF (We're like PB and J. It's actually hard for me to work with other tanks sometimes, cuz he knows how to quickly position himself for an immediate TA, which I luff ...but yeah, digressing...), and originally he only took DRG to 40 for BCNM 40.

But yeah. I partied my THF with his DRG @ 68, and in order to keep up with his TP, I had to land bolts. :D

But yeah. DRGs are really overlooked for some unknown reason.
And so are alot of other classes.

[Mog]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

But yeah. DRGs are really overlooked for some unknown reason.
And so are alot of other classes.

/nod

Many excellant jobs are overlooked. When making a party, I'd take a thf or drg anyday. This is not to say all of them overlooked present something (broken jobs such as puppetmaster)

[Celeal]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

From my experience as a tank or DD, if the BLM or any DD in my party generate too much hate, I would attempt to solve the problem using a big Skillchain + MB:
1. If a melee that can SATA, do the SC + MB at the 1st provoke -> SC SATA on tank at the beginning.
2. If there is no SATA, perform the SC + MB at the mid~end of battle when the SC + MB can kill off the mob.

As a PLD tank and NIN tank myself, I prefer melee(s) + BLM do burst damage around the same time, it is because:

Assuming all DD burst damage around the same time. If the tank can stay on top of the DD that does the highest burst damage (hate), the tank's hate is above all DD in this situation.

If DD(s) burst damage random times during the battle, the tank has to divided up his hate tool to holding stay at the top of hate level. Sooner or later, the tank will run out of hate tool, such as provoke (or other JA) timer is not ready, mp is depleted, etc.

The beauty of SC + MB is the tank can concentrate his hate generation during the brief moment in SC:
1. The tank only need to hold the hate against the DD that spikes the highest damage/hate. If the tank's hate is above that DD, he is above all.
2. The tank can save his hate tools for SC + MB, and stack them. Even if the tank lose hate during SC, by stacking hate tool, the tank's hate should not be too far below the DD. In other words, the tank can get the hate back.
3. Even if the DD goes crazy after the SC + MB, such as chain nuking, Barrage, leaving Soul Eater on... the mob would die very soon anyway.

If SC cannot be formed, just tell all the melee WS at the same time, and tell the BLM to nuke while every melee is using WS. After a couple of battles, the BLM will naturally rest for his mp during the time melees build TP.

In other words, adjust the timing instead of nerfing the damage.

[Theyaden]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

If we're going to talk about bad BLMs, we should talk about bad players in general.

The problem is NOT with the BLM job. The problem is that there are players out there who never learn from their mistakes, and I see that at every job. It's just that there are some jobs where it's more clearly visible than others (PLD, NIN, RDM, BLM, WHM).

Who can tell if the Monk in your party has terrible playing skills? I certainly can't unless he makes a fundamentally stupid mistake like using the wrong WS. All he really has to do is hit a skillchain once in a while (and if it's a TP-burn, he doesn't even have to do that much). Who can tell when the DRK in their party has terrible playing skills? Aside from the occasional Stun, does anyone really pay attention to what their Dark Knights are doing? Not really.

I posted it up above, but it bears repeating: There are bad players in every job. 10% of players are great. 50% are average. The rest generally suck. That's my rule of thumb, and it holds true at every job I've seen in FFXI. It's just more noticeable with BLMs because they're glass cannons.
Icemage

I'ld welcome a sticky in each job forum under the heading of job x common mistakes. This would give players checking on jobs they are curently leveling or planing to level a heads up on common errors made that are job specific.

I fear I wouldn't have the endurance to read a complete thread containing the specific errors made by all the combined jobs of vandiel in a sitting plus it would be a pain to sort through such a wide topic in order to find goofs in my jobs. Besides I think we already have FFXI pet peives throed which is about how it would look. (fun to browse a few examples from, but too big to be useful as a guide)

I'll agree there are bad players in each job, but there are also people that are better at one than another. I'm a good blackmage and whitemage, but I'm an average theif. Being average in the one doesn't make me average in the rest, but it means I'll seek information on how to do better. If there was a post titled Problem with theives in xp lately I'ld read it to see if I am commiting any of the common mistakes that I may not have realized (like overwriting dia with Bio as a blm for example). Not all job mistakes as obvious as others

I found this thread to have merit because it contains specifics on what mistakes are made rather than job a is better than job b. It created debate that had sugestions for what enfeebles to use/avoid, some stacking and overwriting info, and what they help with. MP conservation, timing and the importance, and a reminder of overnuking not just costing the blm his mana pool, but the whitemages as well. I've pted with blackmages although they are hard to find on Garuda lately and leveled mine to 40 with good and bad experiences. I personally welcome the ops post since it gives some basic advice that people thinking of picking up blackmage should consider and any existing blackmages that discover their guilty of one or to errors can better themselves.

Side note: I personally did not find the ops opening post condesending and while its containing critism is bound to nettle some I thought it was a good post aside from some sniping back and forth. Medicine and constructive critism are both rarely appreciated by the one partaking at the time given at least I know I never cared for either one, but since it's often useful I've learned to put up with both for the benifits they may provide.

[Valerathon]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

I agree with your idea, Theya. Maybe not this post/thread, but certainly the initial content of it (though the additional opinions are in dispute), could form a part of such a sticky. Even if each job forum couldn't have it, it'd be nice to do what we could for this one. Maybe it could start with a draft thread?

[Pteryx]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

Complaints, and how they compare with my static partner (I'm RDM, he's BLM):

1) Over-nuking. Stop it! Just stop! The NIN tank can't take hate off of you when you're spamming tier 3-4 nukes. The PLD tanks are even having a time at it! I don't care how much you like seeing those big numbers. Yes, we do excellent damage, but you're draining away MP both because we have to heal you and bcause of unneccessary nukes.

My partner gets his kicks from the big numbers, sure... but he understands that the right way to do it is to wait and end the fight with a big number. He demonstrates a pretty keen sense of where the hate line is, to the point of manipulating it to his own ends at times (see #4).

2) "Wait for me!" I REFUSE to slow my pulling because you can't learn to conserve your own MP pool. If you're our of MP when we start the fight, {That's too bad.} Learn when to rest and when to nuke, because our XP doesn't hinge on you having it. I will wait for the main healer's MP and the PLD's, but NOT YOURS. And if you're out because of overnuking (see 1), then all the better for the PT if we DON'T wait on your MP.

My partner generally doesn't run out of MP. Heck, he rarely goes below half his MP pool. Truth be told, I have him spoiled; he claims it's a pet peeve of his to be below 500 or so. If anyone ever runs out of MP, it's me because some puller assumes that a tarutaru RDM has infinite MP, not a large MP pool with a time-limited capacity to refill.

3) Low Enfeebling Magic. Every level, as long as I levelled BLM, my enfeebling was capped. It isn't that hard! Go to {Besieged}. Throw a dia or dia II during battle. There is no excuse for you to NOT be able to sleep a mob that I could have slept at your level.

{Um...} this is my fault. Staticking with a RDM will do that. He was stumped as to how to catch his Enfeebling back up for a long while until I independently discovered the {Besieged} Dia trick. He tends to also apply this in Dynamis, and no one seems to notice. He doesn't remember at every opportunity, but at least it's finally going up.

4) Levelling Dark Magic. I don't really give a rat's behind what level your dark skill is. You see that robber crab? The one we're hitting for crap? DO NOT cast Bio on it! We need Dia! Clear it with the PT if you're going to use Bio, and use your BRAIN! Cast Aspir and Drain once a minute to raise skill. If you spam Bio on crabs, I'm liable to kick you on the spot.

The trouble with that theory is that Aspir and Drain are only once a minute each; they're not particularly good for levelling Dark Magic with. Furthermore, if there's no effect, there's less likely to be a skillup. Something you sometimes see from my partner for the sake of skilling up is just pulling hate on purpose, then once the mob has been satisfied by hitting him exactly once, using Drain (assuming some WHM who doesn't catch what he's doing doesn't hastily Cure him first). He's less likely to resort to such measures if we're fighting something Aspirable like crabs, however.

5) Elemental Enfeebles {Where?} If you have nothing beter to do with your MP than nuke at the beginning of battle, cast the appropriate enfeebles. Don't know which to cast at 60+? Well, that's just pretty damn sad. With Poison II, you get -8 mob HP per tic. With Bio/Dia II, it's 10. That's enough reason right there to cast at the beginning of a fight, let alone the other benefits. I'm not saying every mob every time, but why not on XP mobs that last 1 minute or more?

My partner... oddly enough, has a tendency to use Burn and only Burn in XP parties, and only for the sake of the INT Down. He knows perfectly well they stack -- uses a full set in Excavation Duty, for instance -- but doesn't. He cites not having room in his macro set for them all. Having been reminded of this tendency, I'm trying to talk him into adding a staff-swap-and-Choke to his staff-swap-and-Burn macro as we speak.

(Oh, and Bio, Dia, and Poison aren't ele enfeebles, but they are DoT. Those ones are my job, though.)

This is why, dear friends, I hate levelling with BLMs. These problems arise again and again. I think this is mainly due to one thing and one thing alone (aside from laziness/stupidity wen it comes to the job): MANABURN PARTIES.

Being a partial static of an RDM and a BLM, we rarely get anything but traditional parties. The only times we've ever been in manaburns, they consisted of people who didn't know how to do it right and who assumed that a single RDM would suffice as a refresher (ha!). The only good manaburn my partner has been in was the one he got into while trying to get an HNM buffer by himself. -- Pteryx

[greydaze]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

Pteryx: I want you to know that what your friend is doing is exactly how BLM should be played. Perhaps he might try stacking some enfeebles, but if his better judgement says no, that's alright.

My point wasn't that ALL BLMs do these things, but that these are the most common things BAD BLMs I've PTd with have done. As a BLM75, I have a lot of time invested into the job and hate to see people doing stupid things that ruin the job's reputation. When I lead PTs, I get a lot of tells. And there's one big thing about jobs in this game:

A BAD mage/tank is WORSE than a BAD melee. Why? Because that bad WHM is going to cause a wipe by not healing the PLD sufficiently. People will die when that NIN doesn't hold hate against simple enfeebles or attacks. A PT will have a dead BLM on its hands if he doesn't slow down his nuking.

And a bad melee? A bad DRK will wiff a lot. A bad SAM might miss SCs. These won't cause PT deaths. It is a lot harder to see bad melee players for what they are UNLESS you have played the job to a high level and know what makes a good/bad melee.

I'm glad for you, pteryx, that you have a good BLM to duo with. Big damaged isn't bad in and of itself: What's bad is repeatedly casting spells for no reason other than to see big numbers, resulting in too much hate. I do 1500+ MBs every time I PT with my BLM, but normally this just about finishes off the mob after light/dark SC.

[Icemage]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

The trouble with that theory is that Aspir and Drain are only once a minute each; they're not particularly good for levelling Dark Magic with. Furthermore, if there's no effect, there's less likely to be a skillup. Something you sometimes see from my partner for the sake of skilling up is just pulling hate on purpose, then once the mob has been satisfied by hitting him exactly once, using Drain (assuming some WHM who doesn't catch what he's doing doesn't hastily Cure him first). He's less likely to resort to such measures if we're fighting something Aspirable like crabs, however.

On the contrary. Both Aspir and Drain can level Dark Magic irrespective of how much you get from them; in fact, even if you show "0 drained" from Drain, it can level your skill as well as deal full damage.

My partner... oddly enough, has a tendency to use Burn and only Burn in XP parties, and only for the sake of the INT Down. He knows perfectly well they stack -- uses a full set in Excavation Duty, for instance -- but doesn't. He cites not having room in his macro set for them all. Having been reminded of this tendency, I'm trying to talk him into adding a staff-swap-and-Choke to his staff-swap-and-Burn macro as we speak.

Burn is an e-peen spell. Tell him to cut the crap and use something useful like Choke.

Being a partial static of an RDM and a BLM, we rarely get anything but traditional parties. The only times we've ever been in manaburns, they consisted of people who didn't know how to do it right and who assumed that a single RDM would suffice as a refresher (ha!). The only good manaburn my partner has been in was the one he got into while trying to get an HNM buffer by himself.

I've anchored manaburn parties as RDM/BRD. Works fine if you know what you're doing. Certainly not as easy as BRD/x but it's not impossible.


Icemage

[Roah]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

you could make a thread like this about all Jobs.

[Srxjo]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

but seroiusly if we all thinked like the OP about BLM with all jobs we would play solo all the time, we all have a bad PERSON playing a job and the the only thing you can do is kick them or disband yourself, i remember i've been called a brillent RDM but then someone else called me crap, it really depends on you axpentations (sp?) of th job, just remember all people play different way. sorry if i sound like i'm ranting

[massaranger]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

i have a soloution to your problem and that is to start of as a rdm being you have less mp and not as powerful of nuke spells you learn how to conserve mp. And being i dont have refresh everyone as a blm it feels like i have less preasue and i mostly just wait for a big mb vs just blasting with spells.