Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

[Visper]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

Interestingly enough, I've gotten invited to a lot of parties as my BLM. :D Unfortunately enough, the majority of them are at caederva mire. >.<

lmao same here - actually asked me to be...can I say it...MAIN HEALER!! but hey xp is xp right?

[Icemage]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

Could you elaborate why it's such a problem to cast bio on crabs? What I usually do is stack Dia and Bio II. I don't really see the problem in this unless Bio heals the mob...

Bio II overwrites Dia and Dia II. Crabs don't hit hard to begin with, so the ATK down from Bio is a waste of time - on the other hand, Dia II can significantly reduce the net effect when they put up Scissor Guard and therefore increases kill speed.

If you want to level Dark Magic on crabs, Stun/Drain/Aspir.

Also....mention that the other elemental enfeebles stack, such as burn >> shock >> choke or rasp >> drown >> frost. The way I tend to think of it is that the first set of three are more focused on how much damage the nuker will do to the mob and how often he will get resisted. The latter three are more oriented toward the melee, so if they're having a bit of a hard time, just throw these three down and it will make their jobs a bit easier. Plus, they all stack DoT, so that's always a plus.
It seems you've been leveling with a lot of blms that don't seem to know what they're doing. Just brush it off. I can assure you, I'm sure the blms will get better as you level up. >.<

The only elemental enfeebles I ever really bother with are Frost for melees that seem to have trouble hitting (less of an issue these days with most everyone using Sushi or stacking a zillion Acc), Shock if I have an underlevelled RDM or a WHM doing the Slow/Paralyze routine, and/or Choke in most other instances. Drown is a waste of time against anything against monk-type enemies. Rasp is pointless except against maybe Torama with a Ninja tank. Burn is totally useless unless you are underlevelled yourself and lack sufficient +INT.

---

I should note that I'm not defending "my" job. I levelled BLM to 56 and have let it stay there since about February of 2005 (it was primarily for Chains of Promathia, where BLM makes a visible impact in the level 50-cap battles). I may pick it back up one of these days, but it's not a job I'm currently interested in levelling.


Icemage

[LilithAngel]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

Preachin' to the quior, Murph. I had to deal with this for several years, long before manaburns even existed; a *lot* longer than any Black Mage (or any other job, for that matter) has ever had to.

[Mog]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

Bio II overwrites Dia and Dia II. Crabs don't hit hard to begin with, so the ATK down from Bio is a waste of time - on the other hand, Dia II can significantly reduce the net effect when they put up Scissor Guard and therefore increases kill speed.

Well that's somthing that's new to me, even. I seemed to read someone on these forums that you could stack a tier one >> tier two enfeeble. Apparently, he lied. >_< Moreover, I always thought that Bio and Dia were just DoT spells. Didn't know it had anything to do with defense and attack power. Thanks for the insight, Icemage.

I blame this on my parties never telling me these things. x.x

[Karinya]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

I try to keep my enfeebling magic capped as much as I can. This is not to say, however, that every sleep will land on the mobs (unless I ES >> Sleep II, which usually works) So don't hold the same standards for /whm and /rdm.

/RDM doesn't help the success rate of enfeebles, it just makes you cast them a little bit faster (which usually doesn't matter). Level, skill and staves are the most important factors in enfeebling success rate (aside from Elemental Seal).

Could you elaborate why it's such a problem to cast bio on crabs? What I usually do is stack Dia and Bio II. I don't really see the problem in this unless Bio heals the mob...

No, that's what you *think* you're doing. Dia and Bio don't stack. Bio II *removes* Dia II, restoring the crab's defense to its normal level.

There are frequently rumors that since patch X, dia and bio started stacking. They're still not true. They've been tested up to and including the merit dia3 and bio3. Casting bio over an active dia removes the dia and restores the target's defense.

Also....mention that the other elemental enfeebles stack, such as burn >> shock >> choke or rasp >> drown >> frost. The way I tend to think of it is that the first set of three are more focused on how much damage the nuker will do to the mob and how often he will get resisted. The latter three are more oriented toward the melee, so if they're having a bit of a hard time, just throw these three down and it will make their jobs a bit easier. Plus, they all stack DoT, so that's always a plus.

This is not quite right.
Burn lowers INT, reducing the effectiveness of the mob's black magic and increasing the effectiveness of black magic against the mob (mainly nukes).
Shock lowers MND, reducing the effectiveness of the mob's white magic and increasing the effectiveness of white magic against the mob (mainly Paralyze and Slow).
Choke lowers VIT (and thereby indirectly DEF), which increases the damage of all physical attacks against the mob.
Rasp lowers DEX, which reduces the mob's critical hit rate and accuracy, but very slightly. It's normally not that significant aside from the DoT.
Frost lowers AGI, which reduces the mob's evasion and parry/guard rate, but again, very slightly. It was popular before sushi, but now shouldn't be necessary. I don't know how much effect it has on the ranged attacks of RNG and NIN beastmen.
Drown lowers STR (and indirectly ATK), which reduces the physical damage caused by the mob. It's useful on a few high-damage mobs like spiders and scorpions (but not pugils, because they resist it very strongly).

Burn and Choke combined increase most damage suffered by the target, which is why the light triangle is favored in most common exp situations. Monster resists will sometimes make it impractical, though.


One other problem I've noticed with some BLMs not mentioned in the original post:

Subjob? What subjob? Some BLMs refuse to heal anyone (even themselves), even between battles when they gain no hate for it and even when they have 2/3 MP while the WHM is out or nearly out. Most either refuse to cure harmful status (very cheap and almost no hate, limited primarily by recast times), or don't know how to recognize and react to status-causing moves. Some don't even use the most basic defensive buffs to protect themselves from their own overnuking - and when they get hit as a result, they don't think to cast anything but Drain.

The reason why people prefer a BLM/WHM to a BLM/SMN is not that BLM/WHM have more hit points and Magic Defense Bonus. It's that they have useful spells that can help the party quite a bit. If they bother to use them.


Pointing out the problems that can be caused by bad BLMs is not the same as saying that all BLMs are bad BLMs, but merely that the OP is reluctant to invite (unknown) BLMs because of the fear that they will turn out to be bad ones. The proportions of bad BLMs are likely to vary from server to server and even from day to day, but I have certainly seen all of those problems among BLMs on my server, and I would be surprised if there's anyone here who can't say the same. People who aren't interested in understanding the job and how to play it well, and just want to do massive damage, can cause a lot of problems for their party.

[Buzer]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

I know I sometimes overnuke. I very rarerly get killed tho. Two most recent reasons to get killed: Thunder II -> melees start skillchain -> quick Blizzard II bursted. Result: Mob goes to me, crit, second hit, I'm dead. Another one was since Anticas linked while pulling, paladin accidently takes them and everyone starts attacking the one, I attempt to sleep (resiste) the other one and since I was the only person with hate, it goes after me & paladin wasn't quick enought to get it off. No big deal. (that's like 3-4 levels or so between the deads btw)

Usually, at most of parties, I almost always will overnuke few first enemies (not enough that they will stick to me). I'm mainly just testing how well the tank can keep the hate.

Normally battle goes like this for me: Dia/Bio, Paralyze, Poison, Blind (repeat last three unitl they stick while checking if other people in party get them to stick), Rasp, Drown, Frost, Aspir (start recasting ele enfeebles unitl they stick), Blizzard II, Thunder II. Wait about 5s after recast timer has cooled down, recast nukes. Of course, if I see melees getting close to 100% TP, I will either just stop casting completly for a bit or cast the non-magic burstable one. I usually keep casting nukes unitl the mob is dead. If it feels like mob will turn to me on the next nuke, I will cast Blink. Usually the cast time gives tank enough time to get hate and if it doesn't, I will most likely survive & reset some hate in the process.

As crazy as the ammount of nukes might sound like, I rarerly see tanks having huge problems with holding the hate. If I do, I will wait more between recasts. Also, I don't usually have problems with MP. At one point I did, but then I found how amazing ginger cookies are.

[greydaze]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

Pointing out the problems that can be caused by bad BLMs is not the same as saying that all BLMs are bad BLMs, but merely that the OP is reluctant to invite (unknown) BLMs because of the fear that they will turn out to be bad ones.

Thank you for understanding the point of my post.

I am a BLM, and a damned good one. I know how to conserve my MP, when to nuke, and when to do the big damage. I LOVE BLM. But that does not mean I love black magES. The last FIVE (5)unknown BLMs to be invited to PTs I was in, by myself or others, all displayed at least two or three of the aforementioned traits. Do you know how frusterating it is to miss a sidewinder because the BLM decides to cast yet another tier4 to see big numbers and the mob moves out of range?

[Lambeaus]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

Thank you for understanding the point of my post.

I am a BLM, and a damned good one. I know how to conserve my MP, when to nuke, and when to do the big damage. I LOVE BLM. But that does not mean I love black magES. The last FIVE (5)unknown BLMs to be invited to PTs I was in, by myself or others, all displayed at least two or three of the aforementioned traits. Do you know how frusterating it is to miss a sidewinder because the BLM decides to cast yet another tier4 to see big numbers and the mob moves out of range?

If that is the case, let them get hit a few times before bringing it off. They will learn, trust me....or eventually leave.

[Murphie]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

Exactly. Instead of randomly complaining that all the BLMs you've had lately have sucked, teach them to be better mages by letting them get hit if they overnuke, or pulling regardless of their MP if they don't keep up, etc.

[greydaze]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

Unfortunately, I dont have the POWER to let them die. Tanks generally do what theyre there to do: TANK. Whether or not the BLM deserves to die. I try to send tells to the BLMs, but they get very uppity. Don't assume I just sit there and do nothing.

[Murphie]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

You certainly didn't give us any indication that you did. What else were we supposed to think?

[711rocks]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

I still like old sk00l pts, people have been spoiled by ToAU.
Actually, I think the best time for ToAU is when there is no AC. No one ever goes, because of the no xp bonus thing, but like, that's when CM kicks the most ass cause there are no problems claiming mobs.
However back to blms, if people can get tp fast enough, they still rule man. Like I play thf, so say I was in a pt with thf, war, nin, rdm, blm, and brd.
War does at least 500 MA, I do at least 1500 SB>Light mirriors for 1500, blm bursts for at least 1000, and maybe the rdm bursts for like 500. 5000 damage in about 7 seconds decimates most mobs very fast. I know pts with like 4 wars doing rampage is good, and I know it can do some insane damage, but I usually only see about 800ish come out of it, sometimes up to 1200, and maybe 1500 if they like, 2h. This is at 70ish though, and I know with merits they will kick some serious ass. If pts can gain tp equally fast, and both are doing decent DoT, 5000 from the SC is cooler than the 4000 (1000ish each) from the War pt.
Idk, I know that will change for both pts as merits/cursed/homam/etc etc come into play.

[Valerathon]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

You certainly didn't give us any indication that you did. What else were we supposed to think?

That's odd, when I read the post, I assumed the intent was to HELP increase understanding of a very real matter. I suppose if you try hard enough, you can make anything out to be hostile when it isn't.

You can stick your head in the sand all you like and say "But not all BLMs are like that. You shouldn't paint with the same brush! etc etc", but the reality is, people who don't read informative forums, or research things, are the most likely to go with their gut. And they have every right to, and if that makes you feel crummy, tough. If they don't follow your logic of "some isn't indicative of the many," what, exactly, do you plan to do about it? Are you just going to insist, over and over, that becasue people ought not to make general opinions about BLMs based on a limited experience, therefor it does not happen? The world doesnt work that way.

And the OP, or me, or others, have no responsibility/obligation to "teach," as you say, bad BLMs, or bad [x job], anything. We have every right to allow bad experiences to inform our opinions, and guide our choices in who we invite. Feel free to improve Vanadiel one poorly played job at a time - I'd rather discuss challeneges like this, as the OP has chosen to do, with people who appreciate the insight (and I apreciate the OP's insight into this subject), and kick the bad apples.

It is unfortunate that you would criticize someone for posting at all, and imply that they are causing (or are even the cause of) problems (like when you post: "I agree, but do you know why things like this become popular opinion? Because folks post on message boards about how terrible all the [X Job]s are."), when they are clearly not, when in fact they're being helpful, trying to increase understanding. That's not a very nice attitude. I think we can all benefit from anyone who thoughtfully read the OP. If read thoughtfully, the OP never says anything about "how terrible all the [X jobs] are." It helps educate BLMs and non-BLMs about a real issue - thoughts on the rep of BLMs in general, and what behaviours that might be contributing to the recent (and in the opinion of the OP: resulting) decline in invites for BLMs (although I have not had alot of difficulty leveling BLM, even in my 60s). I welcome this perspective the OP has brought.

I, and others, have found the OP very helpful in articulating a real concern. So let's discuss it respectfully.

[Murphie]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

That's odd, when I read the post, I assumed the intent was to HELP increase understanding of a very real matter. I suppose if you try hard enough, you can make anything out to be hostile when it isn't.

Is this irony? No one was being hostile until your post.

You can stick your head in the sand all you like and say "But not all BLMs are like that. You shouldn't paint with the same brush! etc etc", but the reality is, people who don't read informative forums, or research things, are the most likely to go with their gut. And they have every right to, and if that makes you feel crummy, tough. If they don't follow your logic of "some isn't indicative of the many," what, exactly, do you plan to do about it? Are you just going to insist, over and over, that becasue people ought not to make general opinions about BLMs based on a limited experience, therefor it does not happen? The world doesnt work that way. And the OP, or me, or others, have no responsibility/obligation to "teach," as you say, bad BLMs, or bad [x job], anything. We have every right to allow bad experiences to inform our opinions, and guide our choices in who we invite. Feel free to improve Vanadiel one poorly played job at a time - I'd rather discuss challeneges like this, as the OP has chosen to do, with people who appreciate the insight (and I apreciate the OP's insight into this subject), and kick the bad apples.
It is unfortunate that you would criticize someone for posting at all, and imply that they are causing (or are even the cause of) problems (like when you post: "I agree, but do you know why things like this become popular opinion? Because folks post on message boards about how terrible all the [X Job]s are."), when they are clearly not, when in fact they're being helpful, trying to increase understanding. That's not a very nice attitude. I think we can all benefit from anyone who thoughtfully read the OP. If read thoughtfully, the OP never says anything about "how terrible all the [X jobs] are." It helps educate BLMs and non-BLMs about a real issue - thoughts on the rep of BLMs in general, and what behaviours that might be contributing to the recent (and in the opinion of the OP: resulting) decline in invites for BLMs (although I have not had alot of difficulty leveling BLM, even in my 60s). I welcome this perspective the OP has brought.

Ok, first of all. Wall of text. For reals. I had to really work to read that. And you seriously took to heart the things that I said (while completely ignoring the same things others have said on the same topic), which I don't understand at all. This isn't personal.

I disagree with the OP that there is a problem with BLMs. No amount of lists or large fonts is going to convince me otherwise. Greydaze isn't saying anything new here. "Don't stack this with that, don't overnuke, learn to manage your MP." This isn't news. I understand and emphasize with her frustration, but I disagree with her post claiming that all of the BLMs out there aren't worth inviting, or that the behavior of a few bad apples she has partied with are indicative of why BLMs have been having trouble getting parties.

No matter how "thoughtfully" I read the OP, I just don't see any merit or fact behind her claims beyond the simple truth that some players are just bad at this game. My advice? If you don't like the people you're partying with, then you are free to leave, and not invite them again. You don't have to put up with bad playing if you don't want to.

I, and others, have found the OP very helpful in articulating a real concern. So let's discuss it respectfully.

Yes, well I (and others) found the OP not at all helpful in articulating anything more than misconceptions and generalizations about another job. No one here is being disrespectful, and all of us are well within our rights to voice our opinions. Thanks though for stepping in to tell us how we should and shouldn't be posting.

[Jei]

Re: Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

Quite a while ago, I was 57 War I think. My PT set up - Nin tank, War, Drg, Blm, some other mages can't remember.

Our Blm taru insisted on doing freeze MB... I told her not to do it with Nin tank but she kept insisting. Oh well, eventually she got her MB and our mob got stuck to her like super glue. Me, the nin and the drg all tried so hard to provoke and make hate while our other mages cure her like crazy. We eventually voke the mob off when the Blm had about 10-15% HP left.

And Viola, the Blm divine seal cure 3 herself calling all the hate back and die. Complaint no one tried to cure her, HP and left our group

Good days, good days.