manaburn become gimped

[Karinya]

Re: manaburn become gimped

No, its not the only way to do it, but that is sort of the point. The BLM can do it 30sec or less, where as by any other means it takes several minutes and it is high risk compared to little or no risk. The BLM burn has a very distinct unfair advantage in KS30 compared to everyone else.

-Personally- I don't neccessarily see a problem with this. I've even comented on how I think that its very true to the spirit of the MMO that enterprising BLMs essentially run in-game businesses doing KS30 runs.

But trying to see it from an objective standpoint, its very very easy to see why SE thinks this needs to be tweaked, and as it goes against thier stated intentions for the game, it needs to be moderated because its an unfair, unintended advantage. In short, the dev team can't predict everything the players do, they didn't account for this, and it is something they never intendeded to be available.

I wouldn't have a problem with BLM manaburning some KS30s IF there were other KS30s that were equally well suited to other sorts of parties. But there aren't.

There's BLM, and BST, and.... well, that's it really for BCNM and KSNM parties. Anything else pretty much sucks. (SMN can free-win some, but only with 2hr, which is not nearly as good as being able to get a free win *without* using your 2hr.) You CAN win, but it's a much harder fight and you risk losing all your seals and getting nothing. Why put up with that when you could win in 10 seconds without any monster ever getting to swing at you?

Ditto Divine Might, HNMs, etc. It's the monsters that are the problem, not the players. 999 physical defense and 5 magic defense YAY! Of course everything but BLM and SMN is going to suck - the monsters stats are just that out of whack. (This is also basically the reason PLDs are useless for tanking HNMs - they're all about the slow 500DMG attacks. Improving the job won't help them much when the encounter is so stacked against them.)


As for exp, pretty much everyone is good in the right sorts of parties except truly defensive jobs like PLD and WHM (can't get in on the ludicrous amounts of exp available to all-DD parties) and jobs that are just broken in their basic mechanics right now (PUP and arguably THF at high levels). There's really no reason to nerf exp manaburns (although I *would* like to see balanced parties with team tactics make better exp than any kind of one-trick pony, but that's possibly a separate issue.)

[Yuanlung]

Re: manaburn become gimped

I wouldn't have a problem with BLM manaburning some KS30s IF there were other KS30s that were equally well suited to other sorts of parties. But there aren't.

There's BLM, and BST, and.... well, that's it really for BCNM and KSNM parties. Anything else pretty much sucks. (SMN can free-win some, but only with 2hr, which is not nearly as good as being able to get a free win *without* using your 2hr.) You CAN win, but it's a much harder fight and you risk losing all your seals and getting nothing. Why put up with that when you could win in 10 seconds without any monster ever getting to swing at you?

Actually, there are... I know atleast SMN (2hr not needed), BST, and MNK all have BC's they can do easily.

Ditto Divine Might, HNMs, etc. It's the monsters that are the problem, not the players. 999 physical defense and 5 magic defense YAY! Of course everything but BLM and SMN is going to suck - the monsters stats are just that out of whack. (This is also basically the reason PLDs are useless for tanking HNMs - they're all about the slow 500DMG attacks. Improving the job won't help them much when the encounter is so stacked against them.)

I take you have not actually fought them? While they do have good def, it's nothing rediculous. In fact, there have been MNK aliances that just went through this easily.

Also note that There are also BC's in which BLM's are rendered useless. For example, the final BC of Zilart mission. The guy is practicaly immune to anything we can throw at him. The mammets... I had to level another job to 40 just so that I don't drag the group down.

Sure, there are many things a group of BLM can do a lot easilier than everyone else, but we are not as omnipotent as some might think.

Also, BLM burn stradegy isn't as fool-proof as you may think. You know the saying "make it fool-proof and they will make a better fool"? BLM's are so fragile that there usually isn't room for recovery if someone does make a stupid error... like deciding that he will go ahead and blast one of the AA's with Freeze before everyone else started with the sync'ed tga3. -_- (yes, this actually happened)

As for exp, pretty much everyone is good in the right sorts of parties except truly defensive jobs like PLD and WHM (can't get in on the ludicrous amounts of exp available to all-DD parties) and jobs that are just broken in their basic mechanics right now (PUP and arguably THF at high levels). There's really no reason to nerf exp manaburns (although I *would* like to see balanced parties with team tactics make better exp than any kind of one-trick pony, but that's possibly a separate issue.)

PLD/NIN can do well in a burn party in DD gears in the new areas. WHM has been a part of the KRT MNK bouldozer parties. Believe me though, I would much rather go to a traditional party if the exp is any where near the level of MNK burn, TP burn, Mana burn etc. Now if SE would only quit stalling and get rolling with that "incentive for traditional party" they promised....

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: manaburn become gimped

Funny to me how people keep bringing up BST Jug Burns when they're not nearly as commonplace or whored-out as manaburn is.

SE has to keep a balance to this game somehow and whenever one particular class has too much going in their favor, when they keep keep keep pushing that envelope - you're just asking for a nerf. You can claim its "exploring the possiblities" of the game, but when it becomes the one tactic everyone relies on for anything, its no longer exploring, its exploiting.

Just like RNG had it coming last year, BLMs had it coming too. Manaburn HNMs, manaburn KS30, manaburn Dynamis... after all that manaburning, you can't kid yourself and think a developer team is going to overlook it.

But this "nerf" is just for NMs and HNMs and I think that's just as it should be. HNMs certainly shouldn't be falling to spam tactics.

As with last years RNG "nerf" the thing here is to adapt to the changes.

But, knowing people, they'll just overreact, pitch a fit and go WAR or MNK now.

...and then SE will do something to WAR and MNK.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: manaburn become gimped

We were talking about that in my Sky LS, which has a steadfast policy of quality over quantity. Better to beat Kirin in an hour and a half with skill than to zerg the punk in 45min. Given that the only thing affected are the situations where Mana Burn makes "rare" and "hard to get" things exceptionally easy (ie reverend mail in the time it takes to cast Thundaga) to get, I don't see it so much as a nerf the same way I don't see rng having gotten nerged.

What I DO see is that that the mobs that -should- take -skill- now required skill instead of zerging from BLMs. Now, obviously, this "nerf" could turn out like the nin nerf (people got more skilfull, started more duo tanking, tried including job X for magic Y - whatever) to get around it - and it becomes a moot point - or it could actually /seriously/ hurt the community like the mpk "fix" that crippled a bunch BST (who have mostly found new ways to work with the system).

Top it off with SE's inability to actually communicate what they mean about something and there's a chance that cycling different types of elemental magic (aeroga > firaga > blizzaga > thundaga) provides a way around the whole thing. For all we know, just having the BLM rotate who MBs when and what spell will be enough to mitigate the majority of the resistance garnered by the mobs.

I guess point is that we really shouldn't cry nerf until all possibilities of equally effective strategies are exhausted. SE -usually- has specific things in mind when they make these changes and if you can figure them out then -usually- thier trick is on par with our trick.

[Goldesper]

Re: manaburn become gimped

Now, obviously, this "nerf" could turn out like the nin nerf (people got more skilfull, started more duo tanking, tried including job X for magic Y - whatever) to get around it - and it becomes a moot point - ~and then they nerf it~

Added something to make that statement even more true

[Eohmer]

Re: manaburn become gimped

And then when I point out i've actually gone to fan fest

You also live in So Cal?

Anyway, about the post... you can never truely believe what people say is going to happen in any update, especially in forums since people always have their wild ideas.

[Khaeos]

Re: manaburn become gimped

"Originally Posted by Playonline.com
-Types of Affected Magic Damage
When a notorious monster is repeatedly hit by the following types of magic, it will accumulatively build magic resistance:

Black magic (elemental), white magic (divine), ninjutsu, magical blood pact abilities, magical blue magic, magical weapon skills (e.g., Spirits Within and Red Lotus Blade), and certain job abilities (e.g., Chi Blast and Mijin Gakure)

-Resistance Fluctuation
When a monster with accumulative magic resistance is hit by a magic attack, the amount of damage it receives will decrease in accordance with that monster's resistance. At the same time, its resistance will increase."

That basically puts it into perspective right there, except on a slightly lesser view. While that right there is in danger of screwing BLM over royally on HNMs (An issue which is in hot debate), if they were to apply that to everything it would basically "burn" manaburns. It wouldn't end them, but it would cause people to think twice about accepting one and what mobs they fight.

[Icemage]

Re: manaburn become gimped

In what way would it "burn" manaburns? It only affects NMs. No one XP's on those.

The only things affected by this are NMs: HNM, BCs, quest fights and mission fights.


Icemage

[Macht]

Re: manaburn become gimped

The update notes you posted only effects the monster if he is "Impossible to Gauge". This is going to make it hell for those HNMLSs that have a large Mage base and very few of other jobs.

Fighting one those HNMs and see Mages damage go from 1k to 900, 800, 700, 600, 400, 200, and so on... Not to mention with HNMs their difficulty increases as time goes by so got a two fold effect really nailing those LSs that aren't well job balanced.

This effect however also effects every element based thing including WSs. So of course haveing as huge a range of different spells and WSs to get the most out of all the elements is going to be more needed.

[Icemage]

Re: manaburn become gimped

The update notes you posted only effects the monster if he is "Impossible to Gauge". This is going to make it hell for those HNMLSs that have a large Mage base and very few of other jobs.

Eh... my HNMLS is predominantly mages, but we don't think it'll faze us much, if at all (15 of 45 members are pure mage/support, and only 8 who have no mage/support jobs levelled to 75).

Our member roster (mouse over names to see what Lv75 jobs people have):
http://www.rzer0.com/members/index.php

I honestly can't see any legitimate HNMLS that is more mage-heavy than this still being very functional. The only HNMLSs I know of that are so heavily mage-dependent are BLM-only Dynamis LSs (and no one cares about them anyway ). EDIT: Oh, and gilsellers of course, but people care about them even less.

Fighting one those HNMs and see Mages damage go from 1k to 900, 800, 700, 600, 400, 200, and so on... Not to mention with HNMs their difficulty increases as time goes by so got a two fold effect really nailing those LSs that aren't well job balanced.

First off, BLMs are getting Tier II Ancient Magic in this update, so you probably won't need huge numbers of BLM to dish out gigantic damage anymore (of course, good luck holding onto hate afterwards...)

Also, only a handful of HNMs go into rage mode over time; otherwise most HNMs just get more uppity as they approach low HP due to TP-ability spam rules.

This effect however also effects every element based thing including WSs. So of course haveing as huge a range of different spells and WSs to get the most out of all the elements is going to be more needed.

That's an unsupported statement. We don't know for sure at this time what the mechanics of the resistance will be; it's very possible that any spell or ability of any element that matches the conditions will increase resistance across all types (in fact, I strongly suspect this to be the case, since otherwise BLMs could just switch elements to avoid the nerf, which is too easy an answer).


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Re: manaburn become gimped

First off, BLMs are getting Tier II Ancient Magic in this update, so you probably won't need huge numbers of BLM to dish out gigantic damage anymore (of course, good luck holding onto hate afterwards...)

I'm thinking it'll be something like Cure V, that will deal massive dmg while generating less emnity than lower tier spells.

[Khaeos]

Re: manaburn become gimped

I believe I read somewhere, not sure if it was from dat mining or on the POL list itself...but AM2 will also be lowering elemental resist as an effect. Not sure by how much, of its its by a specific element...but this would play a huge role in managing elemental resistances on HNM or NMs.

[SonikU4ia]

Re: manaburn become gimped

Looks like the "nerf" actually did in fact happen. Apparently, monsters that con as Impossible to Gauge gain a culmative magic resistance when the same type of spell is cast over and over again on the mob.

Discuss amongst yourselves...............!

[GiaCorleone]

Re: manaburn become gimped

If you want to have an actual discussion about this, we need specifics. Which (H)NM showed a marked resistance over time? How bad were the resists? How long until the resistance wore off? Did it only resist the element that had been thrown at it, or all elements equally?

Fear mongering and speculation are a waste of time.

[Macht]

Re: manaburn become gimped

That's an unsupported statement. We don't know for sure at this time what the mechanics of the resistance will be; it's very possible that any spell or ability of any element that matches the conditions will increase resistance across all types (in fact, I strongly suspect this to be the case, since otherwise BLMs could just switch elements to avoid the nerf, which is too easy an answer).


Icemage

Unsupported my ***:

An accumulative magic resistance effect has been implemented for monsters that /check as "impossible to gauge."

Affected Magic Types
The following magic types will trigger the accumulative magic resistance effect when used repeatedly on monsters whose strength is "impossible to gauge":
Black magic (elemental)
White magic (divine)
Ninjutsu
Magical Blood Pact abilities
Magical blue magic
Magical weapon skills (Spirits Within, Red Lotus, etc.)
Certain job abilities (Chi Blast, Mijin Gakure, etc.)

Resistance Fluctuation
When a monster with accumulative magic resistance is hit by a magic attack, the amount of damage it receives will decrease in accordance with that monster's resistance. At the same time, its resistance will increase.

The monster's resistance will increase in accordance with the amount of damage incurred, but each monster has a maximum resistance level.

They say right in the update that it will effect the magical type weapon skills and even give a couple for examples. The statement says the more magic damage they take the higher resistance goes, but there is a set cap for each of the mobs.

Double Post Edited:

If you want to have an actual discussion about this, we need specifics. Which (H)NM showed a marked resistance over time? How bad were the resists? How long until the resistance wore off? Did it only resist the element that had been thrown at it, or all elements equally?

Fear mongering and speculation are a waste of time.

As I just posted any mob that checks as "Impossible to Gauge", that would be:

NMs
HNMs
ENMs
BCNMs
ISPBCNMs
God NMs
Besieged Mobs
Promyvion Bosses

and any others I might be missing. Also note the resistance is not part of that Rage thing triggering, or difficulty increasing as time passes, mobs starts to get resistance at the very start of any magical attacks hitting it.