manaburn become gimped

[Macht]

Re: manaburn become gimped

Started reading then started skimming when I saw repetitive data. Any thing I skimmed that seemed pertinent I read.

Now as far as I ever read Square-Enix stating is that they are aware of these manaburn and arrowburn like parties. Their standing was that it was alright but they'd prefer the parties to be more varied.

The problem with Manaburns and such is that not every job can do these pure burns. DRK burn? SAM burn? THF burn? They don't get the same advantages. Now you have a party of like 5 or 6 members of the same job that's 4 or 5 members that could helped create 4 or 5 other parties and helped a larger range of jobs to advance.

Now when you are sitting around looking for that 1 BLM or RNG or whatever that's doing a burn I know you'll be cursing the damn burn parties because they just took away a source a traditional party could of used. I know I've been pissed about that trying to find a RDM or BLM and can't because the resource is away in a manaburn party.

Not only that try having your WHM ditch your party which was doing great to go for a manaburn party. Only to see them leave that manaburn party because we were doing better in your party, do you really feel comfortable inviting that WHM again if there's a chance he'll just ditch you right out of the blue? I hate it when I get forced having to invite a WHM like that because I can't find a replacement to him. All you end up worring about after such an event is "When is he going to ditch you again?"

Those burn parties are fine but when they give the impression that they are better then a traditional party that is a problem. Temptation of those burn parties are just to great it hurts other jobs.

Yes, as far as the TP tactical adjustment it was more likely due to the MNK and their relic weapon + Asurain Fist. A delay of 999 with Asurain Fist ensured an infinite cycle of Asurain Fist after Asurain Fist. Not only that before the TP adjustment the SAMs were not turely the TP masters they were supose to be.

For the RNGs tactical adjustment this was due to arrowburns and RNG/NIN. Rangers were to capable of being a heavy damage dealer + tank that was effective in any party configuration against a very wide range of mobs. The adjustment hardly effects a RNG/WAR, a RNG/WAR is still very capable of dealing a great amount of damage and by the fact that they don't have Utsusemi they have to be tactical and strategic not plyable to just any kind of situation. However, RNG/WAR still has it's own range of situations were it is very plyable to.

[Yuanlung]

Re: manaburn become gimped

Not only that try having your WHM ditch your party which was doing great to go for a manaburn party. Only to see them leave that manaburn party because we were doing better in your party, do you really feel comfortable inviting that WHM again if there's a chance he'll just ditch you right out of the blue? I hate it when I get forced having to invite a WHM like that because I can't find a replacement to him. All you end up worring about after such an event is "When is he going to ditch you again?"

Huh? WHM in manaburn?? Banish Brigade???

[TheMidg]

Re: manaburn become gimped

The problem with Manaburns and such is that not every job can do these pure burns. DRK burn? SAM burn? THF burn? They don't get the same advantages. Now you have a party of like 5 or 6 members of the same job that's 4 or 5 members that could helped create 4 or 5 other parties and helped a larger range of jobs to advance.

Actually there are THF burns. THF THF THF THF BRD RDM in Lufaise Meadows for killer exp from what I understand.

I don't see what the problem is, people find a good way to do something with certain jobs and equips and everyone complains because they think it's unfair. It all depends on being able to do with what you can. BLM can't TP burn. WHM can't manaburn. Etc.

[Omni]

Re: manaburn become gimped

i also have read about thf burns. they require having 100tp each fight and basically they do a musical chair of fuidamas onto one another. it requires some brain power though, which a lot of people lack these days.

i think ppl dont like burn parties bc they cant do be one themselves. people will always find an easier way to do things, its not really se's fault for creating the job that way and its still pretty much up in the air if se decides to fix (not really fix, since there isnt anything wrong with the job) but to curtail the use of burn parties.

again, ive always said that why nerf jobs while neglecting to boost other jobs? nerfing a job only makes those players upset while the neglected jobs are still, well, neglected. you're just making the group of uphappy players larger.

im really glad se makes modest and infrequent adjustments to their jobs. unlike wow, which one week a job might be strong, then weak then middle then weak. constant patching just makes it seem that the developers are lazy and shortsighted by only responding to the troves of whiners on forums and etc.

[Macht]

Re: manaburn become gimped

Huh? WHM in manaburn?? Banish Brigade???

No, not to that build.

WHM leaving for like a arrowburn to just be something of support. Guess the RDMs and BRDs were not around so party thought they could replace with WHM. So of course when the burn party offered him it he was gone thinking he'd get more exp there.

Alright Sneak Attacking in turn makes sense, but as someone already pointed out this one requires a lot of coordination. Unlike a manaburn were it's just basically let loose, so of course a SA burn isn't going to be in that huge a favor. Just takes a small amount of bad timed attacks to make everything go south quickly.

Double Post Edited:

again, ive always said that why nerf jobs while neglecting to boost other jobs? nerfing a job only makes those players upset while the neglected jobs are still, well, neglected. you're just making the group of uphappy players larger.

The MUD I use to participate in tried that idea before. Problem is when you adjust to many things job wise at one time you increase the chance of throwing off the balance you want. Along with that it just makes it more of a headache to get the right balance when you keep doing that.

Best method even that MUD had came too is start high and anything seen and suspected to give an unfair advantage is adjusted first. When you got it adjusted as you like then you look for something that is slugging and try to improve it. Slower doing it baby steps at a time but it's safer and development doesn't pull out as much hair trying to get it right.

If you want a MUD were they had a hell of a time balancing and still didn't get it balanced. Then try out Tsunami MUD if it's still there. They use to do a WAR thing every hour, you can see how badly it was when 1 month you have a lv. 10 player beat the crap out of a lv. 30+6 player (30 was max +6 is kind of similar to the merrit system idea). Then on the next month see the lv. 10 player get own by a lv. 5 of another race/job while that lv. 5 is easily defeated by a lv. 8 player of another race/job.

Job balance on that MUD was so haywire it was unbelievable. You litterally said each day "Ok, what is it that I could kill that'll kill me today?"

[Omni]

Re: manaburn become gimped

Well, that is why I like SE's way of balancing. very infrequent and modest balances. You have to admit jobs like drk and smn are sorta shafted with what they have and their roles.

I understand that giving too much just ruins the balance but I see that blm are more or less OK right now. Doing something to purposefully gimp blm so they cant mana burn sounds so counterproductive than giving a little boost to jobs like drk and smn. A boost wont make drks and smns (even g.axe wars) crazy DD jobs but at the same time it might make them a viable (not end all) substitute for fast xp/merit parties.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: manaburn become gimped

The record on my server for KS30 is less than 30 seconds... How does that not need to be moderated at least a little bit?

[Mhurron]

Re: manaburn become gimped

The record on my server for KS30 is less than 30 seconds... How does that not need to be moderated at least a little bit?

Is that the only way to do it? No? Then why does it need to be 'moderated?'

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: manaburn become gimped

No, its not the only way to do it, but that is sort of the point. The BLM can do it 30sec or less, where as by any other means it takes several minutes and it is high risk compared to little or no risk. The BLM burn has a very distinct unfair advantage in KS30 compared to everyone else.

-Personally- I don't neccessarily see a problem with this. I've even comented on how I think that its very true to the spirit of the MMO that enterprising BLMs essentially run in-game businesses doing KS30 runs.

But trying to see it from an objective standpoint, its very very easy to see why SE thinks this needs to be tweaked, and as it goes against thier stated intentions for the game, it needs to be moderated because its an unfair, unintended advantage. In short, the dev team can't predict everything the players do, they didn't account for this, and it is something they never intendeded to be available.

[Lmnop]

Re: manaburn become gimped

well, I'm not about to give details that I don't know, but I know the parser said close to 20k exp in something around 60-70 minutes of solid combat. Likely an exp band for an extra 1k, sure. But it happened nonetheless. I don't see how you can say you get 17k and then say that my "Almost 20k/hour" can't be true when 17k is almost 20k. However, it may have not been sky and it could have been her first aht urgan party (read: no one else there because it just came out). Enough of that though, it's good to hear BLMs can get good exp.

I honestly don't care how much exp blms manaburn. It's funny that Balfree points out all the ways the rest of the community would be screwed if BLMs got nerfed, but the very things he pointed out are why FFXI sucks ass and you know it.

Dynamis sucks because all the melee in the world want relic weapons (your LS would HAVE to let you melee Fafnir if you had a billion gil invested, wouldn't they? Shouldn't you get that respect?) and yet all the melee in the world are frickin' useless in dynamis. All the mages who own the place either have a melee job they're getting gear for or are... getting DKP for their LS?

DM -- a tactical fight... nvm, the new tactic is timing your nukes to vana'diel clock.

Gods/HNM -- nvm, more blms.


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But it's true, if BLMs were completely deleted from the list of jobs today, tomorrow all the same activities would go to SMNs, so nothing would truely be fixed.

[Mhurron]

Re: manaburn become gimped

-Personally- I don't neccessarily see a problem with this. I've even comented on how I think that its very true to the spirit of the MMO that enterprising BLMs essentially run in-game businesses doing KS30 runs.

You don't see a problem because there isn't one. It doesn't unbalance the game. 3 people can go in and do a KS30 (or anything else) and have the same opportunity to do things. That those 3 jobs might be all different or all the same was the choice of the player. Manaburns simply use the strength of the job (create a lot of damage quickly) to of set the jobs weakness (very low defense). Other jobs do not have the same strengths and weaknesses so they approach the same problems differently.

But trying to see it from an objective standpoint, its very very easy to see why SE thinks this needs to be tweaked, and as it goes against thier stated intentions for the game, it needs to be moderated because its an unfair, unintended advantage.

If this were the case then all *burn parties would be targeted, as it is only manaburns SE has a problem with. This is simply bowing to the demands of the loudest, 'It's not fair because I cant do everything the same way as some other job does.'

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: manaburn become gimped

Eh. I see your point, and I suppose you're right. Likely there would be the same issues of PLD found a way to burn peaccock charm in 30sec or less or WAR found a way to burn Emp pin equally fast. I'll give you that with regards to that fact that SE will always go with what (the they think) the majority of the player base wants.

It is fair to point out though, I think, that SE has said for a very long time (since well before the RNG "nerf") that they have always felt BLM is over-powered. At the very least, for about three years; I remember people being up in arms about SE saying that BLM was too powerful when I first started playing and players emo'ing themselves off the edge of Ru'lude gardens at the impending nerf (that still hasn't happened three years later!)

[Mhurron]

Re: manaburn become gimped

It is fair to point out though, I think, that SE has said for a very long time (since well before the RNG "nerf") that they have always felt BLM is over-powered.

Yes they have, they have also turned around in the same breath they don't know what to do about it. They don't know what to do because BLM is its own limitation.

BLM feels very over powered until:
You run out of MP
You start using AM
Parties prefer to roam instead of camp.

Suddenly that superpower feeling turns into a realization that there are huge drawbacks to reign you in. You can't cast magic to your hearts delight. You often can't use your most powerful spells and even with a lot of Clear Mind, Refresh, Ballad 1&2 and +HMP gear, if you exhaust your MP pool, you are going to be sitting useless for a while.

There is more balance in the job as it stands now then most people will admit.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: manaburn become gimped

Yes they have, they have also turned around in the same breath they don't know what to do about it. They don't know what to do because BLM is its own limitation.

BLM feels very over powered until:
You run out of MP
You start using AM
Parties prefer to roam instead of camp.

Suddenly that superpower feeling turns into a realization that there are huge drawbacks to reign you in. You can't cast magic to your hearts delight. You often can't use your most powerful spells and even with a lot of Clear Mind, Refresh, Ballad 1&2 and +HMP gear, if you exhaust your MP pool, you are going to be sitting useless for a while.

There is more balance in the job as it stands now then most people will admit.

Too true, I'll admit. Seeing it typed out I have to agree with you, especially once you add in the hate-line that BLM have to walk. If ever there was a self-limiting factor I would think that Death is highest among them.

[Icemage]

Re: manaburn become gimped

BLMs are the Glass Cannons of FFXI. Big damage, but hardly any defenses to speak of. BLM are totally dependent on their MP pool; in cases where steady damage is called for, BLMs suck, which is why no one invites them to TP-burn parties if they know anything about what they're doing.

For what it's worth, BLM did receive a minor nerf a while back; if you get KO'd while still Weakened, your offensive magic accuracy goes to hell in a handbasket (everything gets resisted).


Icemage