Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

[Taskmage]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

Since some knowledgable people are watching this thread, I might as well ask. What is the tradeoff between elemental skill and magic attack bonus? I see that elemental is in general preferable, since it increases both your damage and your consistency, whereas M.A.B as I understand it basically ups your max damage, like a high amount of +attack would on a melee. But I would imagine +10 M.A.B would probably be better than +3 elemental magic skill just on magnitude, right? What if it was +5 bonus vs +3 skill?

I realize this has probably already been discussed before, but the terms involved make it tough to search for.

[Armando]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

Translation: The accuracy of attack magic spells like Flare is now dependant on your INT parameter.

Thank you. I've been wanting official confirmation for quite a while. It's good to know my high Elvaan PLD/WHM MND is good for something.

Since some knowledgable people are watching this thread, I might as well ask. What is the tradeoff between elemental skill and magic attack bonus? I see that elemental is in general preferable, since it increases both your damage and your consistency, whereas M.A.B as I understand it basically ups your max damage, like a high amount of +attack would on a melee. But I would imagine +10 M.A.B would probably be better than +3 elemental magic skill just on magnitude, right? What if it was +5 bonus vs +3 skill?

Skill only affects your accuracy (i.e. resist rate.) M.A.B. is a multiplier. Multiplier levels are x1.20, x1.24, x1.28, and x1.32 although I believe RDM only gets the first three. Your spell damage is basically multiplied by that. Any additional M.A.B. you get from equipment is added directly to your current multiplier. As with melees, the general rule of thumb is to get a fairly consistent accuracy rating before you start working on your potency. It's situational, judge according to what you're fighting.

Also: When Babelfished, the cryptic messages I get out of Studio Gobli's WS information suggests that Magic Attack Bonus is divided by Magic Defense Bonus. Also, MDB traits seem to have a value of 0.10, 0.12, 0.14, and 0.16. I know that with Magic Defense Bonus (I) I take 10% less damage from nukes. I'm trying to look into the division part (need to find a high-level BLM so that there's a noticeable difference between his/her MAB and my MDB) but it seems logical, since melee Attack is divided by melee Defense.

[Taskmage]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

Skill only affects your accuracy (i.e. resist rate.)

Is that right? With weapon skill, not only does your accuracy increase, but so does your attack. I expected magic skill to be the same.

So by what you're saying, for an MB where resist rates are lowered, I would be better off with my Republic Circlet for +5 M.A.B than my AF hat with +10 elemental magic skill?

[Armando]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

Assuming that you don't get resists, yes. I believe Drain and Aspir actually increase in potency with Dark Skill, though.

Edit: Locus, how do you access the 2002 updates? The Update History in both the JP and NA sites only seem to have from 2003 onwards.

[Icemage]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

- Re: Armando:

http://ffxi.somepage.com/links/ has a comprehensive list of links to all official updates, including auto-translated versions of the Japanese updates prior to 2003.

- Re: INT and resist rates

I thought it was common knowledge that INT does, to some extent, impact black magic offensive resistance rates? What should be noted, however, is that there is a point of diminishing returns (somewhere around +25 INT, give or take depending on race) where INT stops making much impact, much the same way improving accuracy with Sword Madrigal or Gravity doesn't help much if people are using sushi.

Same holds true with MND and offensive white magic.

- Magic Defense / Shell

Shell and Magic Defense traits for players act as a penalty against most forms of non-physical damage. The effect is subtle, but you can see my research on this topic from last year here: Magic Defense Research


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

Thanks, Icemage ^^ At one point I started to wonder if it INT/MND had an effect. I really don't have much mage experience at all.

I'm familiar with your Shell/MDB post. However, I beileve Shell is actually a "Magic damage taken -X%" effect due to the fact that it reduces Skillchain damage, while Magic Defense Bonus won't. From what I can tell, Shell I reduces magic damage by 9 or 10%, Shell II by 14.1%, and Shell III by 19% (no data on Shell IV.)

[locus]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

http://www.chironoworks.com/ragnarok/protect.html

Shell 3 - 20%
Shell 4 - 22.5%

[Aeni]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

Well, with regards to Abs-INT, here's the problem.

Landing this ****** is a real bitch. Don't ask why. I tried to land Abs-MND to see if that helped, but Abs-MND gets resisted as much or even moreso than Abs-INT.

Now, I want to know, what controls the resist rates of Abs spells. Believe me, there's also an inconsistency with the Abs set. For example, Abs-AGI and Abs-DEX seems to land better than Abs-VIT or Abs-STR, but Abs-MND and Abs-INT has an even higher resist rate than these 4 ... even on DC Robber Crabs I encounter this problem (Dispelled, mind you, meaning no shell up)

Abs-CHR seems to stick pretty darn frequently for a yet-useless spell.

I think of all spells in this game, Abs set is very undocumented. I never even seen any research done with it. I should go out and research it, but I need help. If you're on Hades, go give me a call

Addendum:

And the reason why you don't see DRKs play with Abs more is that:

(1) MP cost is suckage. Major, especially on an MP pool like we have.
(2) Recast time is freaking long. Basically it's like Gravity: Land or don't bother.

[LadyPeorth]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

As it stands Absorbs are getting a boost with the expansion because they lack substance:

1) You hafta land Absorb-INT to increase the chance of the other Absorb's landing
2) While you're casting, you're not gaining TP
3) They're pretty MP expensive for not much an effect (it's like +9 right after casting? haven't played my DRK in a while)

[Aeni]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

As it stands Absorbs are getting a boost with the expansion because they lack substance:

1) You hafta land Absorb-INT to increase the chance of the other Absorb's landing
2) While you're casting, you're not gaining TP
3) They're pretty MP expensive for not much an effect (it's like +9 right after casting? haven't played my DRK in a while)

Each of the Abs return a maximum amount (I believe it's set actually, meaning it doesn't change no matter at what level you're casting it at) I don't think it's +9 across the board, but differs depending on the Abs used. This is difficult to figure out most of the time, because I keep forgetting that with the various swap pieces I have, whenever an Abs land and I go to check my stats, I forget what was my base bonus before the Abs landed -_-;;

The thing is, I don't know if INT is determining the resist rate of Abs. Abs are Dark based and is not enfeebling skill or elemental skill. It's like Bio, Stun, Aspir and Drain. I get Dark based skill points and not enfeebling or elemental.

I have capped Dark level +bonus from AF Helm. Even on Ts, my resist rate is pretty high for MND and INT abs. I actually think the Abs system is broken and SE is only now trying to fix it. Really dumb of them if you asked me.


Addendum: Need to add that on top of landing Abs, the duration differs with each cast. Again, not sure what determines the half-life of the spell (I say half life because over time, the amount that was drained from the mob dissipates as well as the amount you gained and also the two rates do not correlate with each other -- I can lose my bonus slower than the mob loses his loss and vice versa -- still no way of knowing what's going on here)

[Armando]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

Shell 3 - 20%
Shell 4 - 22.5%

That Shell III number doesn't fit my data at all. That same site also claims Shell II to be 15%, but the only number that can fit my data is ~14.06%.

---

Shell I data:
* Tachi: Kagero -> Tachi: Goten (130) -> Fusion (70/78)

Shell II data:
* Rock Crusher -> Tachi: Kagero (91) -> Liquefaction (38/45)
* Tachi: Jinpu -> Tachi: Jinpu 104 -> Detonation (39/52) -> Tachi: Jinpu (84) -> Scission (42/50) -> Tachi: Kagero (33) -> Liquefaction (19/23) -> Tachi: Goten (75) -> Fusion (79/93)
* Tachi: Jinpu -> Tachi: Jinpu (220) -> Detonation (94/110) -> Tachi: Jinpu (97) -> Scission (49/58) -> Tachi: Kagero (103) -> Liquefaction (61/72) -> Tachi: Goten (47) -> Fusion (49/58) -> Swift Blade (289) -> Gravitation (372/433)
* Tachi: Kagero -> Tachi: Goten (125) -> Fusion (64/75)

Shell III data:
* Tachi: Kagero -> Tachi: Goten (183) -> Fusion (88/109)
* Tachi: Enpi -> Tachi: Enpi (217) -> Distortion (105/130)

---

Here's why I say it can only be ~14.06%

Tachi: Jinpu (84) -> Scission (42/50.4)
Swift Blade (280) -> Gravitation (372/433.5)

---

50 * 0.86 = 43 (Doesn't work)
50.4 * 0.86 = 43.344 (Doesn't work)

433 * 0.86 = 372.38 (Works)
433.5 * 0.86 = 372.81 (Works)

---

14% worked for all the numbers except for that Scission. 15% wouldn't fit the numbers, and threw the Gravitation off by a lot. Then I remembered having read in a damage reduction thread that FFXI works with fractions of 256, not 100, and that's why some percentages aren't completely precise. I looked up the three fractions closest to 86%: 219/256 = 0.85546875; 220/256 = 0.859375 and 221/256 = 0.86328125. Gravitation was the highest number, and thus, the slightest change in percentage would show a bigger difference on it. I decided to test it first.

---

433 * (219/256) = 370.41796875 (Doesn't work)
433.5 * (219/256) = 370.845703125 (Doesn't work)

433 * (220/256) = 372.109375 (Works)
433.5 * (220/256) = 372.5390625 (Works)

433 * (221/256) = 373.800078125 (Doesn't work)
433.5 (221/256) = 374.232421875 (Doesn't work)

Now back to Scission...

50 * (219/256) = 42.7734375 (Works)
50.4 * (219/256) = 43.115625 (Doesn't work)

50 * (220/256) = 42.96875 (Works)
50.4 * (220/256) = 43.3125 (Doesn't work)

50 * (221/256) = 43.1640625 (Doesn't work)
50.4 * (221/256) = 43.509375 (Doesn't work)

---

And thus, the only possible number is 220/256 (14.0625%). I also concluded from this that decimals from the Skillchain damage are dropped before the Shell percentage is applied. As for Shell I, both 9% and 10% work for the numbers I have, so I need more data. As for Shell III, only 19% will fit the numbers I have, 20% simply doesn't work.

By the way, in case you're wondering how I knew the damage the Skillchains should've done, see this thread: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sam...tml#post547359

[locus]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

It's an approximation. People also don't normally test this damage with skillchains since elemental magic damage is very reliably consistent - why would you test using highly variable sample sizes? Consistency is key.

This is how they got their numbers from elemental damage testing:
Step 1: Modify your int and your target's int so that one elemental spell (water 2 is about the right power) does EXACTLY 256 damage to your target.

Shell 1 = 26/256 = 10.156%, ~10%
Shell 2 = 39/256 = 15.234% ~15%
Shell 3 = 52/256 = 20.312% ~20%
Shell 4 = 58/256 = 22.656% ~22.5%

Test this for yourself and see. The values might have changed.

[Armando]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

It's an approximation. People also don't normally test this damage with skillchains since elemental magic damage is very reliably consistent - why would you test using highly variable sample sizes? Consistency is key.

I didn't set out to test Shell damage, I was actually working on my skillchain table at the time. However, once I realized that Shell damage affects Skillchain damage, I decided to do a bit of quick testing on the side. I need help for all my experiments, and I don't like to take up too much of my friends's time, which is why I have very little data for Shell I and Shell III. The reason I have so much data for Shell II is that I wasn't aware it reduced damage, and therefore I got some extra numbers while trying to get the missing values for my skillchain table. I think Skillchain damage is good way to test it because once you remove resists (easily done, just fight something lower level than you) its damage is completely predictable, and you don't have factors such as INT and Magic Attack Bonus/Magic Defense Bonus interfering. Moreover, if you create skillchains with very high damage, it becomes easy to pinpoint the percentage, as even the slightest change in the percentage will cause damage to change by 1-2 points.

That aside, the method you described seems like a very accurate way to do it as well. I wonder why our percentages don't match? Times like these make me wish I actually had a high-level mage job. If I do more tests I'll post my findings here, but odds are I won't be able to for a while, seeing as I need to ask for help, and with the new expansion coming out, my friends will most likely be busy.

By the way, considering that the damage chosen is 256, I take it the game really does use fractions of 256 in its calculations?

[locus]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

Armando:
Yes, it does. Every percentage you see in this game is just a fraction of 256.

I ran a test myself and got completely different data:

See the attached pic for the unprocessed data.

Damage reduction:
Shell = 22 = 8.5%
Shell 2 = 34 = 13.2%
Shell 3 = 45 = 17.6%
Shell 4 = 53 = 20.7%

Note that they're spaced out more evenly at about 11.5 damage difference between each level of shell, that's a 4-3% difference between each level of shell. It also makes a lot more sense because I'm a bit skeptical of why shell 3 and 4 would only have a 2.5% difference in damage reduction.

I guess this needs further testing.

Edit: Made a fundamental error - I forgot to include the calculations for magic defense bonus level 2 on the RDM that helped me out. The Japanese data might actually be more accurate.

Here's the Japanese page I got the old shell data from.
http://pomum.org/?%A5%B7%A5%A7%A5%EB

[Armando]

Re: Two common misconceptions about Elemental Magic.

How odd. My guess is that when Magic Attack Bonus and Magic Defense Bonus get involved, something in the order of operations warps the results. I know it's asking for a lot, but do you suppose you could repeat the experiment using a DRK and casting on someone that doesn't have Magic Defense Bonus? Everyone's data seems to get different numbers I think I know someone who could help me try this out. I'll try to do it some time in the next couple of days myself.