Question on hate from spells

[lufia22]

How is the amount of hate for BLM spells decided? Is there are certain amount of hate per spell, does it depend on damage, or is it perhaps both?

I think it's pretty obvious that all spells give a certain amount of hate regardless of if they hit for maximum damage or not. This was made evident to me when I cast a spell and drew aggro even though it hit for crap damage. Does this set amount of hate vary from spell to spell or is it the same for every damage spell?

Now how about damage. I'm guessing damage also plays a role in how much hate you get from a spell. So I'm guessing the more damage you do, the more it will add on to the initial amount of hate you get from simply casting a spell.

Now what about enfeeble spells and such. Is there some rule to how much hate they draw?

I'm just asking because I'm a newbie BLM but I find that my ability to cast spells is greatly dependant on my tank. Being able to judge how much hate I'm getting is a key part in judging how much I can cast. Some tanks I can cast two enfeebles and a damage spell right at the start of the fight without pulling hate. Some tanks I can even cast more than one spell of any type. So any help on hate gain from spells would be great.

[Armando]

Re: Question on hate from spells

I have very limited BLM experience, but from my understanding, it seems that partially resisted nukes get their fair share of hate, making resists not only wasteful on MP, but in a way it also holds you back from doing more damage. It's clear that all spells have a hate associated to them regardless of their success. Of course, I'm sure the damage plays a major role too, just like a full party Curaga gains a LOT of hate as opposed to a party Curaga for 0 HP on everyone. In the case of enfeebles, I believe each enfeeble's hate is independent and varies from spell to spell. For example, you won't notice much hate coming from Dia, but Sleep is a terribly high-hate enfeeble. I remember in my Dune days casting 3 or 4 Enfeebles would get me hate. Try to spread out the load between you and the other mages. Also remember that there's White Magic enfeebles and Black Magic enfeebles. A WHM is very likely to have higher MND than you, so while you may be able to stick Paralyze or Dia on the mob, may as well leave that to the WHM. RDM are also excellent enfeeblers, and with a BLM in the party they're not as needed for direct damage, so it's ok to leave the majority of the enfeebling to them so you and the WHM burdened by that initial hate when it's time to do your job's specialty.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Question on hate from spells

I was always under the impression that nuke hate was simply from the damage. As I remember, often when three unresisted nukes would pull hate two unresisted and one resisted would not. I really don't know. I guess that the level of the target is probably involved somehow. Like a level 40 mob would hate you more for doing 200 damage to it than a level 80 one.

[tdh]

Re: Question on hate from spells

Well hate is an accumulative beast. Pretty much everything you do increases your hate. As PLD I've cast Protect on myself, and pulled hate off a big hit. Eating food can also increase your hate. The general idea with Provoke is that it's a hate spike, and then it slowly decreases.

So, using your example, say you use an Elemental Enfeeble like Frost, then cast Fire that does 80dmg. Then you cast Thunder that does 20 and you pull hate. The hate from those three stacked up, and moved your name to the top of the list. Even though the Thunder was resisted, it was enough to push your name up the list.

I wish there was something that could really calculate hate. So we could really see how the system works. As a RDM I don't find myself with enough hate to pull it's attention unless there's a link. So I Sleep II it, Gravity it, and Paralyze. So when it wakes up I have some extra time/chance to re-sleep the sucka. That puts my name on the list pretty high.

Just have to realize that hate management is EVERYBODY's job, not just the tank's. Don't Firaga 10 seconds after the first Provoke and then yell at the tank about not tanking. After a while you'll know how much hate the tank has. It's something you'll begin to see with experience.

[Icemage]

Re: Question on hate from spells

There seems to be two different forms of hate. One form is long-term, one is short-term. Stuff like Provoke generates a strong but short-lived spike of hate.

BLM damage spells, on the other hand, seem to accumulate long-term hate which takes a lot longer to dissipate (white magic cure spells also fall into this category).

As far as the amount of hate goes, it's impossible to be sure, but it seems to me that each spell has a hate multiplier which is applied against the damage you deal - the higher the level of the spell, the bigger the multiplier tends to be. Some spells apply a lot more hate than others, even if they do no damage. Stun is an excellent example - it adds a *lot* of hate despite dealing 0 damage (Flash is also good at this, which is why Paladins suddenly got so much better after the spell was added to FFXI). Sleep spells also add a lot of hate.


Icemage

[lufia22]

Re: Question on hate from spells

I don't mean to sound like a jerk. I've played the game so I know how hate works, I just was inquiring about BLM spells. Just wanted to clear that up.

Anyways, lets say I know I'm pretty close to drawing aggro but the enemy is close to being dead and I want to milk my hate. No one has directly answered this question yet I don't think, so I'll ask it in this example. I decide to cast two more damage spells. Would the logical decision be to cast a lower level/damage spell so that I would not pull hate (assuming they don't pull as much hate), that way I could then follow up with a stronger spell and hopefully finish the enemy off. Thus far I haven't really tried doing this yet as I've been trying to play it safe.

This comes back to the question of the difference in hate between different level spells. Since I'm only lvl 18 so far, I'll use low level spells as an example. How much different do you think the hate gain from Aero and Blizzard is? From my own experience, it doesn't seem to be a major difference, at least in terms of initial hate, but I could be wrong because I tend to stick to a routine on my spellcasts (roughly 2 damage spells per provoke), sometimes branching out and trying to cast more to see if I can manage it without drawing hate.

Maybe I should just experiment and see how many Water or Aero spells I can cast before I draw hate then see how many Blizzard spells I can cast before I draw hate with it.

[Icemage]

Re: Question on hate from spells

At level 18, it's way more important to exploit enemy resistance weaknesses than worry about hate levels of different spells. If you think you're going to pull fatal amounts of hate at that level... don't cast the spell. Wait for your hate to drop a bit. It's that simple.


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: Question on hate from spells

If you know you can't finish it off in one nuke and you're really on the edge of that hate line, I'd say use something that won't pull hate first until you can take it out in one big nuke. I tend to stick only to the nukes the mob is weak to (unless that nuke has become outdated) though, since I'll get less resists and get me a better Damage/MP ratio. So if it were me, I'd probably wait and rest a bit while the tank builds up more hate and my hate decays a bit, then I'd get up and pull off another Thunder/Blizzard. Unfortunately I can't tell you much about the hate of different nukes because I haven't done very extensive magic research, and my BLM is only 20

[lufia22]

Re: Question on hate from spells

-.- At least answer the question. I gave you an example where I could kill the enemy off quickly but would require me exploiting different hate gain from spells. So at least there's one situation where it might be useful. Sure, I could play it safe and not do anything, but that's another several seconds added on to the fight, which means more damage, which means healer has less MP, and perhaps missing an XP chain when I could just finish it in a few seconds. Of course, taking one hit at my level doesn't do much, so if such a situation occured, I guess I should do it. But regardless of that, lets say I'm trying not to get hit.

It doesn't seem the amount of hate you gain matters much as you get higher and higher, but I'm just curious.

On another hate note, about how much hate does resting give you? I know you can't tell me exactly, but compare it to a spell (if it even gives as much hate as a spell) and do you gain hate from resting every time you gain a little HP/MP?

EDIT:

If you know you can't finish it off in one nuke and you're really on the edge of that hate line, I'd say use something that won't pull hate first until you can take it out in one big nuke.

Exactly, but that's what I'm asking, is there a huge difference between hate gain of different level spells (assuming they're not too far apart in level)? I personally haven't noticed a huge one but I also haven't done much testing.

[Icemage]

Re: Question on hate from spells

I did answer the question - I said your question was immaterial, since nuking with higher-resist rate spells is rarely a viable option at low levels. There's no reason to use Fire against a crab if you've got the MP for Blizzard.

As I posted above, hate from damage spells is linked to the spell's tier level and damage done, and more dependent on the latter than the former (emphasis). Since you don't have a huge repertoire of spells to choose from at level 18, you don't have the luxury of choosing a tier of spell, and won't have the option to cast two different spells that exploit weaknesses until you get access to Thunder at level 21.

Resting doesn't give you any hate, it just puts you higher on the priority list if all other players in range have 0 hate (which is why the only time you'll usually get hit while resting usually is when a puller has missed a ranged attack and runs the monster near you).


Icemage

[lufia22]

Re: Question on hate from spells

And at the same time, you didn't answer the question but only told me advice that I honestly don't care about. Besides, for all you know I could be fighting a Goblin, which, as far as I know, are only weak to light.

Regardless of my level or what I'm fighting, is there a LARGE difference in hate gain when using a weaker spell when compared to a stronger spell, assuming both are unresisted. Obviously you think damage is the major factor in damage spell hate, and that answers one of the questions I had and I appreciate that. Now the other question is whether or not that difference in hate is large enough to make a noticeable and exploitable difference.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Question on hate from spells

No. You can't really get away with doing more damage just by using a slightly weaker spell. And if you go a whole tier or even two tiers down then it's going to take you longer to deal equal damage to a higher tier spell that the tank will likely have built a lot more hate anyway. Does that answer?

Usually you want to spew out damage all at once so you can spend more time resting.

I actually stole hate off a WAR tank in Qufim in my early deays while resting. I assumed it was counting the HP and MP recovery like it does a Cure spell, but now that I think about it that was probably the diminishing effect of Provoke combined with his crappy damage against the crab.

[Icemage]

Re: Question on hate from spells

Should also bear in mind that every offensive damage spell you throw at a monster gives it 10% TP. Using weaker spells is usually a bad idea because of this (more TP = stronger and more frequent special attacks).

You almost always want to cast the spell that deals the most consistent damage (exceptions being cases where you're doing a magic burst on an element that a monster isn't normally weak to).

Icemage

[lufia22]

Re: Question on hate from spells

That's why I gave the example of finishing off the enemy. Lets say the enemy has 30% health left. The tank just recently provoked and I've cast a spell or two since. I'm afraid casting another Blizzard would pull aggro, so I choose Aero instead, which wont pull aggro. Once I land Aero and not pull hate, if the enemy is within range of me finishing it off with Blizzard, I can then cast Blizzard and the enemy will be dead and not worry about pulling aggro. In other words, I quickly finished the enemy off by exploiting the fact that one spell gives me less hate to do overall more damage and kill the enemy fast. If I didn't cast Aero, I would have to wait for me to lose hate and then cast Blizzard which would save myself MP but increase the fight time. TP and trying to do equal damage with less hate wouldn't apply to that situation because the enemy is going to die shortly after I cast my spells, but thanks for making those points.

Again, this is a hypothetical situation. I haven't done it much to test how big of a difference there is between Blizzard and Aero. It might very well be so small that it would be mostly sheer luck if I didn't pull hate with Aero due to so many variable factors.

Although, I'm guessing that strategy wont work much as I level up due to changes in classes and spells and the way people XP. At my level, people rarely skillchain and I rarely am low on MP so I guess I'm just trying to find a way to finish the enemy off fast with spells and not pull hate, sort of as a way to substitute for no MB. Once people start XP chaining like mad, I'm pretty sure I'll be low on MP and wasting my MP like the above situation wouldn't be wise.

So forget all of what I'm trying to say as obviously it has no meaning at higher levels.

[Icemage]

Re: Question on hate from spells

TP and trying to do equal damage with less hate wouldn't apply to that situation because the enemy is going to die shortly after I cast my spells, but thanks for making those points.

That's not a safe assumption. You could easily get a partial resist which will stretch the battle out instead of finishing off the enemy, which then leaves you with a tank (or worse, yourself if the spell you threw was big enough) who is now facing an enemy who has more TP to throw into a special attack (or in a worst-case scenario, just picked up the last 10% it needed to throw another special from your spell - enemies below 20% HP immediately use a special attack once they hit 100% TP).

Prior to level 51 and elemental staves, partial resists are quite common, even on elements that the enemy is weak to, and extremely common on non-weak elements.

Just ask any BLM at level 50 or higher who has seen a busted Freeze land for 350ish instead of the expected 700+. You should never count on killing something reliably with a spell.


Icemage