The MB question

[Jei]

Re: The MB question

hehe ^^ usually in xp PT I can only MB about 40-50% of the sc to have enough mp to keep chaining. So I never think about doing double MB before. Now that it's mentioned, I definitely will play with it xD

[Icemage]

Re: The MB question

Actually everything you MB is enhanced. Dropping something like Dia on it really cripples the defense of that monster, it can actually cripple the defense better then acid bolts will do. Same with dropping something like Drown on it, the damage they can deal becomes significantly less to a tank.

To better specificy when executing a MB it's more popular to have it do damage over effect.

I don't think this is true. If there is any strengthening of effect on non-direct damage spells that are MB'd, it's too subtle to measure, and thus probably not worth doing if you actually have a damage spell available.

I've MB'd all sorts of stuff. Lullaby, Elegy, Threnody, Dia, Frost, Paralyze, Slow, Silence, Flash, Stun, whatever... sometimes by accident, sometimes intentionally because it's the only way I can get a spell to stick reliably on certain enemies without using something like Elemental Seal. In no cases did I see any noticeable increase in slip damage from Dia/Bio/Requiem/etc. Even if there is some strengthening there, it's so small that it isn't noticeable. Slow doesn't make them any slower (nor does Elegy). Paralyze doesn't kick in any more often, Bind doesn't last any longer, Silence is still just as unreliable as ever even when MB'd, etc. etc. ad infinitum.

Regarding double MB: RDMs at mid-to-high levels can MB a Level III or II spell and every once in a while, if your timing is really good, drop a second level I nuke behind it for a second MB. Works best on the lower-end spells like Water I and Stone I, I haven't managed to do it with Blizzard or Thunder yet, but it could be that I'm not trying hard enough.

WHMs can double MB quite easily using Holy, though the occasions where this is useful are excessively rare (65+ skeleton party with Banish III + Holy magic burst can be pretty fun if you have a BRD and RDM setup to fuel the mp cost).

BLM/RDM can also pull off the double MB trick at level 75 pretty easily with a Warlock's Mantle and a pair of Rostrum Pumps (giving them 20% fast cast total when combined with the Fast Cast II trait from /RDM).


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Re: The MB question

When my friend was explaining it to me he said he was in a party dropping Thunder II and Aeroga on a Fragmentation, and the total MB damage was comparable to their blm's MB Thundaga II. So if we trust my old, poorly remembered secondhand information, the results can be rather impressive. ^,^

I could have sworn that when I was a young mage and was throwing Paralyze MBs for practice and for lack of better spells to burst with, the proc rate for the enfeeble was noticably higher.

On the use of Chainspell to MB, the one strategy I've read for the BCNM 3... 2... 1... is to go in with 2 samurai with icarus wings and 4 red mage. Sams Meikyo Shisui and make continuous Fusion/Liquefacation SCs (Goten<->Kagero I think) while the rdms Chainspell and spam Fire II for as many MBs as possible. Unfortunately I think the drops for that battle are poor for the seals and effort involved, but it sounds like an immense amount of fun so I have to try it at least once.

[Macht]

Re: The MB question

Icemage I can understand the likely ness of you not noticing since it sounds like you only have them in 1 conditional trial without a controling base to better measure. If you have a buddy and find a decent monster that'll survive your two's onslaught to create a SC with and Burst it with a debuffing it becomes very noticable.

We've fought some of the hounds in Zi'Tah and other creatures in Xarcabard, with a straight out paralyze they'll usually not be capable of attacking for like 1/4 of the fight. When Bursted they were paralyzed for 1/2 the fight. Then going with Stuns we could stun them for maybe a max of 3-4 sec. when bursted the stun went went a good 10-15 sec.

Now some effects burst may not be that tremendously great for, like the stun to be using on a MB just to have a 10-15 sec. effect seems kind of ehhh. With an effect like Dia our regular damage went from the 80-90 to around 160, basically doubling the damage we did. Now on stronger mobs it may not take off as much, but still it's a good effect to try and second a Burst on. Especially if a second stronger Skillchain is going right after you'll pull out a bigger Skillchain number and a stronger Magic Burst to boot.

[Kafeen]

Re: The MB question

never tried 2mb before. New toy to playwith yay xD
I like to close the chain and MB by myself tho

There a video of Apple Pie doing it somewhere, he does a self-light skill chain in Eldiem Necropolis (sp?) with a double magic burst. Show off.

A RDM can burst twice on a 3 man chain just because of fast cast but it could be hard to get a level 3 elemental spell in on time. I did it with level 2 spells a fair bit but level 3 spells might need a Duelist's Tabard for the improved fast cast.

[Icemage]

Re: The MB question

Icemage I can understand the likely ness of you not noticing since it sounds like you only have them in 1 conditional trial without a controling base to better measure. If you have a buddy and find a decent monster that'll survive your two's onslaught to create a SC with and Burst it with a debuffing it becomes very noticable.

My opinion is not based upon a single test, but from 250+ levels of levelling mage jobs. It's extremely common to have an early skillchain when you have a THF or /THF in the party, and I often take advantage of this when playing bard or white mage, but generally speaking RDMs and BLMs have more interesting things to burst than debuffs.

If the proc rate on paralyze when MB'd is any higher I never saw the difference in 75 levels of MB's with Paralyze on WHM. The accuracy is somewhat better than average, in that there's fewer outright resists, and less likelihood of a quick fade on the spell, but I've had MB'd Paralyze and Slow fade within seconds of being cast, just like normal ones. It's less common, but nonetheless not useful in an appreciable manner unless it's the only way you can get a spell to stick (which in itself an indicator that you're probably too low level to be fighting that enemy anyway).

For BLMs especially, since hardly anyone uses Transfixion or Compression, there's rarely any reason to burst with anything other than a direct damage spell.


Icemage

[Macht]

Re: The MB question

Umm, there is a difference between results in an EXP party and a controlled test. Taking results by what you see while EXPing and you'll definatly get the wrong result, reason is simple by the fact that you haven't controlled anything in the test. On top of that how it sticks and effectiveness is just like you stated which is evidence in itself of it buffing the spell.

Try it in a more controlled base then an EXP party, you'll see a difference. With better focus to that you can adjust the gear and everything to better enhance it when in an EXP party and you'll see it's effects even better there as well. Otherwise, like I can already tell you level is nothing I can go on preaching that I've also done around 120+ levels in mage jobs and what not.

Still it comes down to the fact that I've met players that have done 250+ levels in melee jobs and yet had to explain to them how to do a skillchain. Please don't take what I just said as implying anything to you, just belting out that you've tried it without providing more of a condition on how you created your control base to proove this leaves no repeatable evidence for everyone else.

[-VM-]

Re: The MB question

I personally double MB quite frequently without RDM sub on my BLM but it usually involves following up Thunder IV with Stun...but I have noticed that Stun does generally stick longer when I MB it, although I don't have much to comment on other non-direct spells like Paralyze, Slow, etc. because I've never really experimented with them much myself. Its really not that difficult to do a double MB if you follow up with an enfeebling spell and you time it so your first nuke lands almost right when the MB window activates, otherwise you'll never have time to get the second spell in.

[Icemage]

Re: The MB question

Umm, there is a difference between results in an EXP party and a controlled test. Taking results by what you see while EXPing and you'll definatly get the wrong result, reason is simple by the fact that you haven't controlled anything in the test. On top of that how it sticks and effectiveness is just like you stated which is evidence in itself of it buffing the spell.

Try it in a more controlled base then an EXP party, you'll see a difference. With better focus to that you can adjust the gear and everything to better enhance it when in an EXP party and you'll see it's effects even better there as well. Otherwise, like I can already tell you level is nothing I can go on preaching that I've also done around 120+ levels in mage jobs and what not.

Still it comes down to the fact that I've met players that have done 250+ levels in melee jobs and yet had to explain to them how to do a skillchain. Please don't take what I just said as implying anything to you, just belting out that you've tried it without providing more of a condition on how you created your control base to proove this leaves no repeatable evidence for everyone else.

I understand where you're coming from, but my point was that, even actively trying to find a difference, I couldn't see any *appreciable* variation in the proc rate of paralyze when MB'd (actually I've done some fairly extensive testing of paralyze and come to the conclusion that it's stupendously random), and as we all know, slip damage on DoTs is so low to be neglible - even double the effect would still be laughable damage. Slow and Elegy are rather hard to MB except via Darkness, or in the handful of levels near 60 when you're fighting Torama and may be using Gravitation, so my experience with MB Slow effects is a bit less complete, but again, on the occasions when I try it, it does not appear to have a noticeable impact.

Fact is, even if the effect on certain spells is enhanced, the circumstances under which you would want to do so in lieu of something more "traditional" are few and far between. Slow, Elegy, Paralyze, Blind, Dia/Bio, and any elemental enfeeble should be cast at the beginning of a battle, and recast as necessary (Silence as well when appropriate). Waiting around to cast them for a Magic Burst is silly, unless the skillchain just happens to be happening right as you want to cast the appropriate spell anyway. Even in those cases, it's often better to delay casting, say, Paralyze for a potential damage MB.

Honestly, the only job that could make any use of practical enfeeble MB's is WHM, and even that is situationally limited basically to Paralyze. BLMs don't need a magic burst to stick stuff like Frost, RDMs don't need it to stick Slow or Paralyze, Bards don't need it for Elegy or Threnody, and Dia/Bio never need any help to stick, so what's the point? Dia II MB for (theoretically) lower DEF down effect when you just took off a huge chunk of life with a SC + MB already? Bio II MB for a monster that's probably almost dead?

Sure, it looks really neat when you do a non-standard MB, but the only useful trick I've found with MB'd non-damage spells is a MB Foe Lullaby at the end of a Fusion or Light skillchain. If the monster is still alive, it's virtually guaranteed it will try to use some sort of WS, and you can sometimes cancel the WS with the Sleep effect if your timing is good (and if you're lucky).


Icemage

[Alauna]

Re: The MB question

I wonder if a 70blm/rdm with Fast Cast II could pull of the same thing. If bursting a Flood and say a Water IV on the same chain was possible, that would be quite impressive.

Um... No. Water IV has too long of a cast time to Double MB with. And trying to MB with AM just adds to the complication, unless its a rock-solid, time and time again Skilllchain, that has been perfected down the a science.

[kuu]

Re: The MB question

Just wanted to point out that the window for MB is different for spells and Blood Pacts. Also spells seems to have some kind of priority so they can if not timed right with the BP actually prevent the BP from MBing.

BP is not a spell, rather an ability, and seems to be constant for all, so yea the window is messed up cause avatar IIs cast much faster then a blms.

The time window for BP MB is like a WS, so 3 seconds after you see ready, you cast, and i'll land on the window of a MB

Kinda makes you want anicent spells for avatar's doesn't it?

BTW is it possible to ancient MB with a rdm sub, since it's usually 5 seconds before the 1st SC starter?

[-VM-]

Re: The MB question

BP is not a spell, rather an ability, and seems to be constant for all, so yea the window is messed up cause avatar IIs cast much faster then a blms.

The time window for BP MB is like a WS, so 3 seconds after you see ready, you cast, and i'll land on the window of a MB

Kinda makes you want anicent spells for avatar's doesn't it?

BTW is it possible to ancient MB with a rdm sub, since it's usually 5 seconds before the 1st SC starter?

LoL Even Fast Cast IV (RDM37 Sub [II], Rostrum Pumps [I], and Warlock's Mantle[I]) isn't going to cut off 5 seconds from an Ancient Magic spell. Just thought I should point this out so you don't end up with the wrong idea about Fast Cast. Its good, but not that good, we don't need RDM's chainspelling Tier III spells all the time =P.