Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

[Altruist]

Magic attack passive traits don't stack.

[Akeda]

^^^ Has that ever been proven?

[Yuanlung]

Originally posted by Akeda
^^^ Has that ever been proven?

Yeah, it doesn't stack.

None of the passive skills stack with themselves. The higher level one just overwrites the lower one. Same goes for clear mind.

I wish SE would put a number on them though, to show the different between different levels of the same trait. :sweat:

[Roric]

I know some of this has nothing to do with parties, but as a BLM/RDM I need to put my two cents in. I think BLM/RDM is a wonderful combo, with many pro's. Do you know how often I run through somewhere and find a bunch of dead people "Hey can you raise" " <Job> Sorry I dont got this raise thing your talking about ^^." My sub is a lot more fun for me to level up ^^ (Seriously though I cant stand WHM). I can... solo things. With Bind and Gravity I can solo EPs-DCs just casting Dia, drain, aspir (Was raising Enfeebling ^^). Your solo potential is pretty great to, what BLM/WHM can solo Aquarius? I was in a party with a BLM/SMN one time, dont know if he just sucked, but I out did him like 30-40 dmg per spell, and 120 dmg on the burst. Basically, I think that your sub is totally dependent upon what you feel like leveling, and what you think is best, not what anybody else thinks.

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by Roric
I know some of this has nothing to do with parties, but as a BLM/RDM I need to put my two cents in. I think BLM/RDM is a wonderful combo, with many pro's. Do you know how often I run through somewhere and find a bunch of dead people "Hey can you raise" " <Job> Sorry I dont got this raise thing your talking about ^^." My sub is a lot more fun for me to level up ^^ (Seriously though I cant stand WHM). I can... solo things. With Bind and Gravity I can solo EPs-DCs just casting Dia, drain, aspir (Was raising Enfeebling ^^). Your solo potential is pretty great to, what BLM/WHM can solo Aquarius? I was in a party with a BLM/SMN one time, dont know if he just sucked, but I out did him like 30-40 dmg per spell, and 120 dmg on the burst. Basically, I think that your sub is totally dependent upon what you feel like leveling, and what you think is best, not what anybody else thinks.

If you did 30-40 dmg per spell more and 120 damage on burst...he had to have the worst gear on the planet. The INT difference would have to be so huge...and he'd have to have no moldavite earring, no staves, no nothing. BLM/SMN has more INT than /RDM, and more MP than /WHM, but no cures. So, theoretically, BLM/SMN should deal the most damage, but be the least effective in terms of additional contributions. For you to outdamage him that badly...he definately had to have god-awful gear.

[Grasshopper]

Ok..

Now that I have reached level 70, I can speak a thing or two about sub jobs for BLMs (I have full sub of red and white btw, just not SMN.)

It turns out that I have 2 more base INT if I sub RDM then WHM, and although it does not seem like it, it does have its advantage. I, for one, am an INT freak. I want to boost my INT as much as possible (elemental skills too). I have outdamaged BLM/WHM in the past with the same gear, with the same level (only by 3 damage tho) because of the int difference. The most noticeable thing is , his spells got resisted 2 x in that particular fight and none of my spell got resisted. Not that big of a deal eh ? Think again....think really hard...and I am not going to give you a lecture about being an efficient BLM.

Sub SMN from what I heard will give you even more iNT and MP over sub whm and RDM.....but look at it this way........you are basically a gimp BLM......you cant heal, you cant status cure, you cant protect youself (phalanx, stoneskin, reraise, etc)......and that means....you cant solo and you are less useful to PTs. I have made this assertion based on my experience and so therefore it is a very subjective view. I cannot tell people what to pick as their subjob, I am just saying that you will have a hard time getting PTs , eventhough your INT is off the charts.

After all those grueling times leveling, I realized that there are certain times that even a lower INT and damage is acceptable (subbing whm in this case). In a PT, you have to take into account what you are going to be fighting and what situation you are going to be (Status cure help , Curaga help , etc.) Especially in the upper level, ppl tend to make PTs without WHM (yes its true...WHM are no longer as important in the higher level.....cept for Stona of course hahahah)

Sub RDM in the other hand are EXCELLENT for soloing stuff (read:..phalanx, stoneskin...ballista.....dynamis....nuff said). It is also excellent when you are doing RDM type mobs for XP (read: weapons in romaeve). That extra dispel can come in handy when your bard is doing minuet or your RDM is casting haste to the melee.

Thats just my 2 cents.......btw.....those elemental staves are great. You should give it a shot.......cough* extra 40-100 damage *cough


Peace out !

[tdh]

SMN Sub

WHM is the the agreed sub. I think we all know and agree to this. About 90% of BLMs Lv.30 and up, has a BLM sub. Divine Seal, more MND, Cures, status removal spells, and Divine Magic.

I've heard a number of people, most WHMs though, that swear to RDM sub up to a certain point. I think RDM is more viable sub for WHM up to about Lv.20. Honestly, the only reason I use RDM sub for BLM is due to my hatred for leveling WHM. If I had a properly leveled WHM sub, I'd sub WHM.

SMN ~is~ a good subjob, in a number of party configurations, but not past Lv.29. BLM/SMN, WHM/SMN is very common in Lv.10-20 areas, and to a lesser extent, in Lv.20-30 areas. Especially since BLM is King from Lv.10-35 or so. Them having some extra INT and a load more MP. They're a party with a great Tank's best friend.

Either way, regardless of subjob, or race for that matter, a BLM should load up on INT, and eat food that gives INT and MP. (Apple, Melon, Pumpkin, Rolanberry Pies) Even with Conserve MP, you want ever single cast to count.

[bukkake-fighter]

opinion?!?

is it typical for thisforum to censor people's opions on the best sub?!!?!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[xNecrosanx]

Use RDM sub when you fight mobs that don't induce status effects like poison/paralyze/silence, etc. For example, /RDMs are great VS crabs; dispel, faster aspir recast, etc. The bad thing would be not being able to remove the STR down without /WHM's erase, but that shouldn't be too big of a deal.

Use WHM sub when you fight mobs that do induce status effects. Assisting the WHM on 3 poisoned/paralyzed/silenced targets is always a nice thing.

Rarely do I use /BRD, and I would never /SMN. My 2 cents :spin:

[Bellrogg]

Great thread! I was having questions on which sub to pick for my Lv 16blm, i wanted to go rdm ,and i wasnt sure, but now i am,
Blm/Rdm all the way for me.

[Keyura]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

just cause i've thought long and hard about this, i got things to say. 1) i do not have rdm sub leveled, and i probably wont before i get blm to 75 because i feel that outside of manaburn, the difference your sub makes is negligible. why manaburn? cause phalanx makes it much easier on the brd/rdm to take care of you. 2) i never plan to sub brd, i don't pt w/o a brd or rdm main, so refresh is np 3) i've tried sub smn, and the lack of being able to take care of myself was what got me. the dmg was great but i couldn't self-buff as easily, or cure myself. 4) to favor whm sub, alot of main curers won't cure a blm who gets hate cause they think the blm isn't doing their job, so being able to cure urself is a bonus, this goes the same for rdm sub. but the fact is for what its worth, rdm doesn't add much to ur nuking, but whm adds alot to ur curing. and while i refuse to cure anyone else in the pt unless they are red health, i will cure myself whenever i am hurt and i need to wait on drain. blm shouldn't ever be asked to cure others imo cause thats not what blm is about, but curing themselves makes them much more powerful in a pt because of the fact they can take care of dmg and keeping themselves alive, allowing the main curer to concern themselves with everyone else. this doesn't sound like it does justice to rdm sub which for the most part is as good as whm except for self curing, though divine seal is great. finally, 5) i see no problem with sub often because gear will make up for almost any deficiency sj/race drums up as long as sj is leveled. i was in a manburn with another tarutaru blm/whm same exact level as me, and his gear, which was like +1 lv. 54 rings, and HQ ice staff, so +2 more mp and like +5 more elemental magic, and he was owning my dmg by up to 150 dmg on freeze. now consider the tarutaru blm/whm who was a level higher than us and in slightly worse gear than me, and was doing up to 100 less than me usually, i think SJ and race weaknesses are there to cause the player to spend more on nice gear, of course best sj and best racial bonuses and best gear will win every time (see 75 tarutaru blm/rdm with best possible gear who solo's king buffalos in ulegaurand range for 300 exp and lots of gil) and it prooves that for msot situations, you can overcome the weaknesses inherent upon you, but to be the best, if ur a "ichiban" i gotta be the best kinda guy, then consider seriously what sub u chose for dmg output (like rdm or smn over whm) but if u want to be most useful to ur pt, seriously consider a sub based on ability to help self (rdm) and others (sometimes) (whm). its all about how ur playing, and it seems to me until u get past most EXP situations, whm sub will be not only generally accepted, but much more self-fulfilling than rdm or smn sub, of course, excepting manaburn, where phalanx can be so useful that it warrants rdm sub over whm sub. jsut my 2 cents

[Sacrosankt]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

wall of text'd

good info thx

[Aeni]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

My own past experience with a BLM/RDM (JP Player) in DA, exp'ing off of Bark Tarantulas (This was about 6 months ago?)

DRG/WAR NIN/WAR DRK/THF RDM/WHM BLM/RDM WHM/BLM 3x JP, 2x NA, 1x EU

We (our party) never needed the BLM to sub WHM. In fact, it was better that our RDM was able to sub WHM instead. There really was no need for escape from the RDM, because we camped right next to the exit leading outside of DA into Zi'Tah. Also, in light of that experience, I can say without a doubt that the WHM could've subbed SMN and maybe RDM (For fast cast, as I will explain below)

I was the party puller, although I made sure not to use ranged attack with a Bomb Core in my slot. The DRG had an Optical Needle in her ranged attack slot and I didn't want her to pull with that either.

As I am pulling the Bark Tarantulas, even while carefully tabulating the pull rate and the subsequent repop rate, I sometimes accompanied by the BLM/RDM on these pulls. Now, you might think, this is unheard of. Why is he not resting? Well, MP was never an issue and again, I'll explain why ...

After the spider gets to camp, NIN will take aggro. RDM will then enfeeble while BLM uses elemental enfeebling. We had two sets of Divine Seal + Erase for those nasty slow-ga, but we had hasting enough to go around. At this time, the BLM/RDM, if he was accompanying me, would take a kneel, while the RDM will do some light damage in his place. WHM will usually be in charge of healing which is normally light due to having a blink tank.

Our SC setup was SATA light on the NIN. On MB, the BLM/RDM, due to Fast Cast, usually lets us start the SC and then casts AM (Yes, Ancient Magic spells) the casting time is generally fast as a 3rd tier -ga spell. If the BLM was stressing for MP, he would cast a 2nd or 3rd tier -ga spell and finish off nuking away.

You may think that AM is wasteful, but it actually conserves MP in the long run. The damage from the MB is quite powerful and a well equipped BLM with additonal stats and magic power from a RDM sub can put that through the roof. That punch from an extra expended 80 MP usually ends the fight then and there and allows the BLM to rest, instead of having to cast additional spells should the monster remain alive. Also, it allows us to SC immediately, right into the fight at times and quickly seize Chain 5s and a couple of Chain 6s. Usually, the BLM will have so much MP, that at times it is unnecessary for him to constantly take a knee. This allows him to accompany me on those long pulls and to cast sleep in case we pull a link or add from a newly popped spider. Also for those long pulls with flies (We use this to lead off the exp chain, since the spiders are more closer and easier to melee on)

I think that had the party been allowed to continue (Throughout the time there, we were on a time limit of about 2 hours, since many JP players seem to impose time limits in order to generate exp efficiency) we should've all leveled once and lead halfway into the next. It was fun as well as it opened my eyes to the possibilities of BLM/RDM. There was no noticeable problems with it and the side effects were easily negated with an accomodating support mage.

That's my experience, anyway.

[fireyhope]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

since a new summon is out, SMN's officially have better buff's, Diabolos can now Phalanx the entire party, and can now enhance everybody's magic atk and def

[Chocobo Knight]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

I've always planned to do BLM/WHM, but now I'm not so sure. There are many convincing arguements for RDM, despite the fact that the general acceptance is WHM.(SMN is out of the question, I am leveling that seperately.) There are a lot of buffs and the damage boost that point toward the RDM. However, I think that Keyura hit the nail on the head when he said that you should choose the sub that fits your playing style.

Visualize this scenario; if you sub RDM, you will be more capable of soloing high exp mobs, with the buffs and exclusive spells plus the RDM's penchant for melee and more INT. This is a good deal. You get all the exp and gil in a job that is normally not accustomed to soloing.

On the flip side of the same coin, there is the WHM sub. This sub is widely accepted and will most likely get you invites to parties. With parties you can effectively kill more mobs than you could soloing, plus exp chains, skillchains, etc. Not to mention advanced healing and debuff removal.

All in all, it depends on which field you want to specialize in. Also, it depends on which field you think gets more exp: a strong solo session, or a nice grind with your friends. Which one gives you guys more exp? At lvl eight, all Ive experienced is solo, and I cant wait to start pting. Im not sure whether I should switch to RDM sub and solo, but I need to know which one can give you more exp in short amount of time. Please post only facts, and the amount of time you played for.