They threw me in jail!

[little ninja]

Re: They threw me in jail!

Omni FTW! guess i dont have to respond.

an to comment on steelfleece. i soloed him as a 60nin/30thf. lol he is blind, blind, blind, theres no doubt about it.

ToS is my friend.

Article 4: User Disputes
You shall be solely responsible for resolving any and all disputes that may arise between you and other Game players or PlayOnline users in connection with the Game or your use of PlayOnline, and for paying any and all expenses incurred by you in connection with resolving such dispute. SEI shall not be responsible for mediating or resolving any such disputes and shall have no liability to you or to any third party for any costs, fees, expenses, damages or other losses incurred in connection with or as a result of any such disputes.

[Ziero]

Re: They threw me in jail!

Sure, when the beastmaster is 75. If the beastmaster is anywhere near the level of the mob they are trying to fight, CC would get ripped to shreads. If a 70 BST is fighting a level 65 hecteye, CC wouldn't stand a chance. BTW, Steelfleece is only 55ish and did it take just the one Courier Carrie to take it out? That should show you how strong jug pets are when it's 20 levels higher then the mob and it still loses. Since when did the use of muliple jugs become carrie can solo it. Carrie can solo something when she can take it down by herself without dying and without pet food.

He IS a 75 Bst, steelfleece is a lvl 56 (4 lvls off WHOMG!) HNM that spams a two hour and not a normal lvl 60 mob. And if he's so blind then why did the 75 Brd and 75 Sam take longer to duo it then Carrie did to kill it? And fyi, the first carrie got it down to about 10% from 100 without trouble or assistance from the bst. And to top it off the OP said CC worked on the mobs but felt that it was wrong for him to spend money.

I'm still not seeing where it says you can't keep charmable mobs charmed. It's pretty vague in what it states, in fact if you read it says monopolizing only CERTAIN monsters is against the rules and the only specific example it gives are notorious monsters. Charmable mobs aren't Notorious Monsters. Since when did 45 minutes = monopolizing? Monopolizing is when the only damn people who get an NM/item are the same friggin group day in and day out (aka gilsellers), yet you see GM's do absolutely nothing about them.

Also, it's not making it impossible to complete a mission or quest, because a) O-Hat is not a quest or mission, and b) you can easily go buy a cluster/eye in rolanberry fields from a bazaar. Isn't stealing an already engaged mob considered "preventing other players from engaging in battle"? Both acts are wrong, and BOTH can be interrupted as disruptive behavior.

So intentionally halting the spawning of a mob that drops a needed item isn't holding? You're seriously joking right? He stopped the spawning of this monster for 45 minutes and you don't think it's holding? Yes, he was preventing people from getting an item needed to get their O-hats. What YOU decide is a 'certain' mob does not matter, it's clear that the only way to get this item is to kill the mobs he was holding or track down everyone with a bazaar and hope you get lucky. Any argument otherwise is ludacris as the OP already admited he did it to specifically harass them. He knew what he was doing and why he was doing it, said that in the first post.

And I don't have to be higher lvl to have mobs stolen from me, it's happened before while *I* was soloing things. (You know Bst aren't the only ones who solo!) But when a mob goes unclaimed, as rude as it may be, is fair game. Whether you're a Bst soloing, a thf/rdm/blm using sleep to get a breather or an alliance of 18 fighting an HNM for hours on end, yellow can and will be claimed by anyone around that wants it. That's not against the ToS and they took measures to try and limit how much that happens but work still needs to be done.

As for Omi:

I said it's ok for everyone, including Bsts, to claim and kill any mob with a yellow name in game. What's NOT ok, for ANY PLAYER is to claim a monster that drops a special item, then sit there for nearly an hour doing nothing but 'occasionally' killing one or two mobs. The OP did this, he admit he did this and he admit he did this just to piss off the other players. Or did you forget that? Did you even read that? Do you understand the words I have just typed?

The other pt didn't do anything to him to make him lose claim, not once. The other pt wasn't following him throughout the zone just to pester and harrass him, they wanted the drop just like him. The other PT didn't call their friends to lock down the spawns of mob. The other pt didn't do anything to prevent the death and respawn of the mobs for an extended amount of time, not once. What the pt did do was take advantage of a known weakness of Bsts. That sadly is not against the ToS, but holding a mob that drops a one of a kind item, no matter how hard you try to dance around that fact, is.

Also, if it was always at 1% why didn't he just finish it instead of using leave? Seriously, why would he even use leave when the mob is so close to death? Either he never said 1% (Which means you made it up) OR he wanted to kill both mobs (assuming he was charming the eyes which seems to be what people are saying). If 1) stop talking, if 2) then he knew he would lose claim on both mobs. I'm leaning towards 1 myself.

As far as the 45 minutes go, the OP said that! (Really go read it) And you know what else, you can instantly recharm! ZOMG NO WAI! And you know what, only one person was jailed and that was the OP. You know who said that, the OP! And I'm not condeming him for not using a jug pet, I'm 'condeming' him for

1) Whining about 'unfairness towards bsts' when any job would have suffered the same fate
2) Breaking the ToS then complaining he got busted for it

Thank you for proving that you didn't read the topic though Omni, seeing as you skipped things the OP said and all.

Your best arguments so far are:
.
These mobs aren't special in any way. Despite only 5 specific monsters drop this one of a kind item. Really, that's just weak.
I'm too low to understand claiming. As a thf and NM hunter I know how claims work, and how hard other people will try to get said claims. And I know that if you are farming high priced item dropping mobs, you expect others to do everything they can to get claim of their own. *IF* they do start moving in against you, you try to do everything you can to kill every mob you can as fast as you can. If you can't do that and they outclaim/outkill you, admit defeat and move on. Again, weak.
That I don't understand how Bst work. I'll admit I don't, but this has nothing to do with him being a bst.

He was camping a gil drop against other people, you expect cut throat-ness. Doesn't mean you give it, just don't expect anything else. If he was a Rdm and was sleep > Nuke > sleep resting to win and lost claim, he would be in the same situation. If he was killing a large tier HNM and it went unclaimed mid fight and another LS got claim he would be in the same situation.

Now I'm still waiting for someone to show me where I praised the other PT. I was accused of doing that, but I never did, so please show me. I know i said they were rude, jack asses, low lives and many other bad names, but I never once praised them. I'm also waiting for where I said that this was bad because a Bst did it and that other jobs can hold mobs. I was accused of saying that too, but never said it either. I know I said any other job who had their mob stolen would be in the same boat and that any other job who held rare mobs should be jailed, but never once said Bst had to follow special rules.

P.S. I like my shovel, it's very shiney

Double Post Edited:

Article 4: User Disputes
You shall be solely responsible for resolving any and all disputes that may arise between you and other Game players or PlayOnline users in connection with the Game or your use of PlayOnline, and for paying any and all expenses incurred by you in connection with resolving such dispute. SEI shall not be responsible for mediating or resolving any such disputes and shall have no liability to you or to any third party for any costs, fees, expenses, damages or other losses incurred in connection with or as a result of any such disputes.

They didn't jail you for a dispute, they jailed you for holding. This is that lil rule GMs use to tell you to Blist people who insult you and spam emotes and junk. Seriously, do you even understand what these things mean?

[Gman]

Re: They threw me in jail!

You guys that are saying yellow is fair are way off-base. To think that way is totally clueless. It is not fair game, and little ninja was robbed. Open the blinders. SE made an imperfect game. The claim system is is one of those imperfections. Any GM with a grain of common sense and understanding of how this game is played would have done something about that first PT. (cue N.W.A...)

And this whole argument about whether Haku Hecteyes are pseudo-NM or not is pointless and irrelevant.

As far as I know, the claim patch was supposed to help HNM camps, not BST. I don't think it helped either though.

(Gman, if you read my post, I was talking about Blubber Eyes, not Thousand Eyes.)

The "circular room" comment threw me off, since Million Eyes and Thousand eyes are the only ones I can think of that many spawn in one room.

Dodomeki, Blubber eyes, and Mindgazers are a lot more spread out.

My mistake... yes a CC would own them pretty badly, although I would never use carrie there, I would just charm a Great Claw from the overhead bridge and use that.

Yipee!! Senario time... (in response to Ziero)

Senario 1

If little ninja and his buddies had been there the whole time charming Thousand Eyes (nothing else) and using them on VT mobs for merits, and this party came along to farm Haku eyes, what then? Do the rules change? The party calls the GM, says the BST's are holding the mobs, when in fact they are using them for exp, does the GM still jail anyone?

The fact is, if you read the posts, lil nin and his friends WERE killing other mobs with their pets. Maybe not as fast as they could have, but they were exp'ing, not holding.

Senario 2

Lil nin and buds have bats charmed and are fighting VT mobs. Party comes to exp on bats in that area (a fairly popular exp spot). Again, BST's are not killing the mobs as quick as they can, but due to the weakness of bats, there is some downtime. This party calls a GM, claiming that the BST's are holding the exp mobs. What happens? These aren't -money- drops, so should this be completely different than when the BST is using mobs that drop gil items? Holding is holding, regardless of what you are holding. Or is it?

See Ziero, it's not all black and white. The GM had to make a call on the spot, and he chose to penalize the BST, where the other GM had to make a call on the spot, and chose to let the other group continue to bother the BST (who by the way was there first, and more than willing to accomodate the other group and share - by his own words)

Your arguments are all based on inconsistent factors. Remember when Omni asked for consistency? You didn't provide it with your rebuttle. Neither did the GM's... and isn't that what this 7 page long argument is ~really~ about?

By the way, I have another question only little ninja can answer. How the hell did you guys get claim on all the Thousand Eye spawns anyway? Why was their voker so fast to claim your mob when it turned white, but couldn't claim one of his own when he knew exaclty where it would spawn and he had provoke? (This really isn't relevant, I was just curious)

[little ninja]

Re: They threw me in jail!

one time i didnt think they would do what they did, since the day before another party never bothered to touch my mobs. they waited to voke the next one. so anyways i moved down the one tunnel to get out of the way of flare. when the mob was almost dead i released it to come find his rampage. but the mob never got to me. it kay dead in the tunnel with the nin an sam standing over it.

The next time it happened was on a pet swap. the thousand eyes opened up with a paralyze. so the cutlass scorpion wasnt attacking much, the eyes then casted a thunderaga 3, shortly after that it was a flare. so i run down the tunnel to grab a bat an i released the eyes. when i came back i saw the nin voke. no hate to the mob yet. but the nin had his attention, the sam came up an did a WS an it weent purple. their Thf then came up an tricked back onto the nin.

another mob they followed me around the tunnel til i was in another part of the room with the bats. they waited for a swap til they did the same voke into 2 ws. mob went purple after that.

I just flat out, out pulled them. I guess its do to all the ulli campin i used to do, you eventually can time the mobs. an since i was the original killer of them, i could remember the pop pattern. after the 3 mobs were stolen, i still remember the pop pattern. So when my friends got down there. it was a matter of me saying when to pay attention.

An frankly their thf was a horrid puller. they kept tryin to pull with a bow an arrow i believe it was. but its still not faster then a dia. the nin never went into the room to pull much, but then again he was prob living in the red due to the pt not having a mage.

[Harrison]

Re: They threw me in jail!

He IS a 75 Bst, steelfleece is a lvl 56 (4 lvls off WHOMG!) HNM that spams a two hour and not a normal lvl 60 mob. And if he's so blind then why did the 75 Brd and 75 Sam take longer to duo it then Carrie did to kill it? And fyi, the first carrie got it down to about 10% from 100 without trouble or assistance from the bst. And to top it off the OP said CC worked on the mobs but felt that it was wrong for him to spend money.

He shouldn't have to spend money. If you are going to dictate what he should do with his gil when there is a free option available, then maybe the other people there hunting eyes should stop being cheap also and just go buy their eye or cluster instead of using the free option of farmin it.

What YOU decide is a 'certain' mob does not matter

Right back at you. So I guess YOU are the one who detemines what a certain mob is? It is not a NEEDED item in addition to that not being the only means of acquiring it. You can BUY your eye, it's not a rare/ex item. You don't need "luck" to find a cluster or eyes in a bazaar. Step foot in Rolanberry for a few minutes. I have never once NOT seen a made cluster at minimum in a bazaar there. Usually there are dozens of eyes and clusters available. O-Hat is an optional piece of equipment. It is not required to progress through the game, missions, or quest so it falls no where in your arguement that you are trying to use.

So intentionally halting the spawning of a mob that drops a needed item isn't holding? You're seriously joking right? He stopped the spawning of this monster for 45 minutes and you don't think it's holding?

Um, reread my post and what others have said. It's literally impossible to hold a mob for 45 minutes with charm. The other party had several opportunities to claim these mobs when they uncharmed or the Beastmaster Left them within that 45 minutes. BTW, how long have you played this game? 45 minutes isn't even on the cusp of being a long time for anything. If they are crappy claimers, that's their own damn problem. (and from what lil Nin said, they were) Apparently you don't even know what holding is anyway. People hold 20+ hr NM's to change their spawn window so they will normally pop during their primetime hours. You can't "hold" a normal mob that will pop ever 13 minutes because it doesn't change anything.

If he was killing a large tier HNM and it went unclaimed mid fight and another LS got claim he would be in the same situation.

Oh, and thank you for further showing you know little about HNM hunting and endgame. Legit LS's do not steal others HNM's when they go unclaimed. The only people who resort to such tactics are gilsellers.

[Magnus V.]

Re: They threw me in jail!

He IS a 75 Bst, steelfleece is a lvl 56 (4 lvls off WHOMG!) HNM that spams a two hour and not a normal lvl 60 mob. And if he's so blind then why did the 75 Brd and 75 Sam take longer to duo it then Carrie did to kill it? And fyi, the first carrie got it down to about 10% from 100 without trouble or assistance from the bst. And to top it off the OP said CC worked on the mobs but felt that it was wrong for him to spend money.

Ok i may be wrong, as im not that much into the HNM scene.. but isnt a HNM defined by 75+ meaning its higher than cap?

If so its an NM not HNM...

Now I'm still waiting for someone to show me where I praised the other PT. I was accused of doing that, but I never did, so please show me. I know i said they were rude, jack asses, low lives and many other bad names, but I never once praised them. I'm also waiting for where I said that this was bad because a Bst did it and that other jobs can hold mobs. I was accused of saying that too, but never said it either. I know I said any other job who had their mob stolen would be in the same boat and that any other job who held rare mobs should be jailed, but never once said Bst had to follow special rules.

You didnt praise them, you just said they didnt go against TOS... Which they did, and if you read the TOS the BST didnt.. by what you quoted the BST stopped the drop of an item thats made into an item to get another item... no quest, no mission and isnt even directly invloved in O-hat ((Its an item synthed into another item thats used in O-Hat))

(BTW if you want to know how what they did is against TOS read Omni's Post)

[Rai]

Re: They threw me in jail!

s im not that much into the HNM scene.. but isnt a HNM defined by 75+ meaning its higher than cap?

No, I've been playing the game a long time and remember the lvl cap was not always 75. Some HNMs such as Steelfleece and King Artho are considered HNM even though they are not lvl 75 due to their High HP and their overall Strength. These HNM have been around since before the level cap was raised.

When a NM or HNM dies they give EXP and you are able to gauge their level by the EXP given. Some NMs are very very tough for the amount of EXP they give when defeated, and these are considered HNM, some say HNM stands for High Notorious Monster, I first heard that it stood for Hyper Notorious Monster and I feel the latter is more accurate.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: They threw me in jail!

just as a point of clarification, Hyper is the phrase that SE has used in the past in thier version update information and on thier webpage.

[Bov]

Re: They threw me in jail!

/derail continued

SE seems to be using "High Notorious Monster" now. Hyper was what I heard first too, but here's a direct quote from a recent update on playonline.com:

Now that everyone seems to be used to the new areas and enemies of the Treasures of Aht Urhgan expansion disc, a number of notorious monsters will be introduced in the next version update.

In addition, a new type of high notorious monster (HNM) will be added to the beastman strongholds.

[Ziero]

Re: They threw me in jail!

So if a group of gil sellers were down there holding all five of these mobs 24/7 with bazaars filled with the eyes they dropped it would be ok?

These are a *Special Mosnter* they drop a *One of a kind* item. Any monster that you prevent from dying that drops a special item you are holding.

And to the person who said HNMLSs hold HNMs for 20+ hours, the rule was put in place to STOP that from happening. People can, should and DO get jailed for it.

And Steelfleece was one of the first HNMs in game. But as time went on, the lvl cap went up and players got stronger he lost much of the power he used to command. But the same can be said of any older monster. Where Kirin used to be *THE* biggest baddest thing in game when first introduced people can now kill him in less then an hour.

If these mobs didn't drop a valuable, one of a kind item, yes the situation would be different. There would be nothing special about these monsters thus anything that could be obtained from them could be easily obtained elsewhere. If the mobs he charmed were allowed to die or he released claim on them then yes, the situation would have been different. But he and his friends did everything they could to prevent these monsters from dying and respawning. That is the definition of holding.

He shouldn't have to spend money. If you are going to dictate what he should do with his gil when there is a free option available, then maybe the other people there hunting eyes should stop being cheap also and just go buy their eye or cluster instead of using the free option of farmin it. Right back at you. So I guess YOU are the one who detemines what a certain mob is? It is not a NEEDED item in addition to that not being the only means of acquiring it. You can BUY your eye, it's not a rare/ex item. You don't need "luck" to find a cluster or eyes in a bazaar. Step foot in Rolanberry for a few minutes. I have never once NOT seen a made cluster at minimum in a bazaar there. Usually there are dozens of eyes and clusters available. O-Hat is an optional piece of equipment. It is not required to progress through the game, missions, or quest so it falls no where in your arguement that you are trying to use.

And this is called hypocricy. If he shouldn't spend the money, why should they?. Oh and where do you think people got the eyes needed to make those clusters? They both wanted the eyes, that's not the question, the question is who wanted them more. Also if you want to get technical, nothing in this game is *needed* so if I go out and claim Gho'Bu Gascon and let him swing at me for an hour not doing anything but voking him I guess it's ok then. He doesn't check ITG and you can find the item he drops in bazaars too!

And as far as your 'only gil sellers steal HNMs' thing, I never said it wasn't rude or wrong morally I just said they didn't break the ToS to do it.

And after reading Little Ninjas description of the situation, his point of view, they followed him once before he called his friends. The other two times he lost the mob he was no where near them. And again, you don't have to camp Ulli to learn how to time pops. I do it when farming things I've been farming since lvl 30.

Now I said this many times. They were wrong. They were asses. They should have not pulled mobs he was fighting. But they did NOT break the ToS. When he called his friends to halt any chance that these mobs would drop this one of a kind item THAT is breaking the ToS.

[little ninja]

Re: They threw me in jail!

So if a group of gil sellers were down there holding all five of these mobs 24/7 with bazaars filled with the eyes they dropped it would be ok?.

Obviously it is ok. since S.E fails to do anything about them other then move the pop around. they still dont ban them. still dont inforce ToS "NO MONOPLY RULE" on them,

These are a *Special Mosnter* they drop a *One of a kind* item. Any monster that you prevent from dying that drops a special item you are holding.

yeah i still havent read that in ToS, point this out that i cant charm such a monster. i seen players running around with Hak eye mobs in SSG, an the temple. like i stated earlier. we use them to kill the O.hat nm. so if you came to came the mobs. i guess we are holding huh. hell ive even seen a few bst running around with oozes in beadaux,

If these mobs didn't drop a valuable, one of a kind item, yes the situation would be different. There would be nothing special about these monsters thus anything that could be obtained from them could be easily obtained elsewhere. If the mobs he charmed were allowed to die or he released claim on them then yes, the situation would have been different. But he and his friends did everything they could to prevent these monsters from dying and respawning. That is the definition of holding.

So what your saying is any mob i charm an not let die is considered holding? An we were trying to kill them, so what if it takes us a lot longer to do it in groups of 5. eventually one of the Vt would have gotten lucky.

And this is called hypocricy. If he shouldn't spend the money, why should they?. Oh and where do you think people got the eyes needed to make those clusters? They both wanted the eyes, that's not the question, the question is who wanted them more. Also if you want to get technical, nothing in this game is *needed* so if I go out and claim Gho'Bu Gascon and let him swing at me for an hour not doing anything but voking him I guess it's ok then. He doesn't check ITG and you can find the item he drops in bazaars too!

Obviously i wanted them more if i was forced to call a bunch of friends in so we could charm those eyes long enough to get them out of the zone. or how about the fact i out claimed them on the next 5 pops. An besides why should i have to spend money to make money if i dont have too? so you go out an farm some items an make 100k, but you turned around an spent 150k to do it. doesnt sound like your too smart.

And after reading Little Ninjas description of the situation, his point of view, they followed him once before he called his friends. The other two times he lost the mob he was no where near them. And again, you don't have to camp Ulli to learn how to time pops. I do it when farming things I've been farming since lvl 30.!

nope you dont have to camp ulli to understand this. but they sure didnt have a clue. yeah keep pulling with Ra, when you got a bst next to you with dia. an your other party members with /war are to lazy. an since you no where even near the level, or never even seen the zone. i wont even try to explain the position of anythign in that zone.

[Omni]

Re: They threw me in jail!

But they did NOT break the ToS. When he called his friends to halt any chance that these mobs would drop this one of a kind item THAT is breaking the ToS.

You still dont get it. You always always always omit parts of the TOS you dont want to hear.
THEY DID BREAK TOS, just that GM didnt do anything about it.

Does the TOS say not to disrupt play?? IT DOES. They were disrupting lil_nins play from the getgo.

This is where you always conviently leave things out.

Just because the GM doesnt want to enforce them for fucking aruond with lil nin doesnt mean its not breaking the TOS.

This is where my call for consistency comes in.

If lil nin gets shitted on for halting play with charming all the mobs, THEY should get shitted on for stealing on pet swaps. you know why? BOTH DISRUPT PLAY. They were preventing him to get the drops from the mob.

It goes both ways ziero. Every single point you ever made can go both ways.

Again, this is where we want consistency.

Just because a gm didnt jail them doesnt mean they didnt break TOS. got it?



and about that stupid ram in konchatat. No one cares if it WAS a hnm. the fact that NOW, when lv. 75 cap has been our for oh... some 2-3 years, IT IS NOT AN HNM. for a 75 CC to smash a lv. 55 mob is not the same as a lv. 75 player.

He IS a 75 Bst, steelfleece is a lvl 56 (4 lvls off WHOMG!) HNM that spams a two hour and not a normal lvl 60 mob. And if he's so blind then why did the 75 Brd and 75 Sam take longer to duo it then Carrie did to kill it? And fyi, the first carrie got it down to about 10% from 100 without trouble or assistance from the bst. And to top it off the OP said CC worked on the mobs but felt that it was wrong for him to spend money.

huh? that's 19 levels off. not 4. Since you dont know how pets work, CC is an uncapped pet. So it goes to about 1-3 levels under the bst's current level so that makes CC vs Steelfleece a lv. 73 vs. a lv. 56.

Have you even fought Steelfleece? you keep making him out to be some big scary taru eating ram or something but he is blind. really, try it yourself, you'd be amazed at how blind he is. who cares if he spams mighty strikes and bleats, he wont hit you anyways, unless you're taking him on as lv. 60 or something. The only thing it has going for him is that it has a good amount of hp. so thats why it takes some time to bring him down. pet attacks are always going to be stronger vs. the mob than player attacks. got it?

You utterly, just dont know how pets work. Give it up, you suffer from lack of experience.

[Harrison]

Re: They threw me in jail!

And this is called hypocricy. If he shouldn't spend the money, why should they?

No crap. Guess you didn't pick up on the sarcasm. You were the one calling the BST cheap for not wanting to waste gil farming for eyes by using jug pets. I guess rangers should be using bullets to farm since they aren't killing the mobs fast enough for other respawns by using level 1 arrows. >.>

But he and his friends did everything they could to prevent these monsters from dying and respawning. That is the definition of holding.

Yeah, the other party did everything they could to prevent the BST from keeping claim on his mobs. That is the definition of theft and grieving. Read the OP again, the GM wasn't punishing him for "holding mobs" (which he wasn't since he was using them to kill other mobs). He was in trouble for disrupting other's gameplay. The same thing the other party was doing to him in the first place. Get it through your head, they both were violating the ToS, but because the inital party went unpunished (which is usually the case in everything) you claim they aren't guilty. Explain to me then why the gilsellers who kept stroper chymes charmed and ran around the zone weren't punished in my previous post. GM's are far from perfect, and punishments are handed out based on their judgment.

The whole point of this thread was the inconistent manner punishments are handed out, and the double standard that exists. If the GM interpreted the group of Beastmasters as grieving, then the original parties actions should have been interpreted the same way. There is no jusitice in Vana'diel, and Beastmasters have every right to complain about someone stealing their mobs like asshats. It's bad enough when we claim an NM and it happens, now we have a situation in this thread where there are multiple spawns of the same mob, but this party choosed to steal from the BST. While I would have taken the higher road and just left instead of instigating the situation more, I can't blame the OP and his friends for doing and feeling the way they did. Beastmasters get pissed on and laughed at enough before the MPK update, but now that no one fears retaliation anymore from Beastmasters, it's even worse. So now a Beastmaster takes a non-violent approach in taking a stand against asshats, takes his warning/suspension like a man, then is continually criticized while the original asshats are being supported as doing no wrong.

[Tomatoes]

Re: They threw me in jail!

I still say it's theft, but not griefing. Griefing/harrassment implies the primary intent is to piss the other person off. I'm pretty sure that other PT couldn't care less if it was a BST or a SMN or another PT they were stealing from. Given the choice, I bet they would actually even prefer to not steal, except greed gets the better of people.

Imo, there's no double standard here. GMs just come down harder on harrassment than they do stealing (in addition to being just plain incompetent at times). Anyway, I've touched on this point multiple times already. I have nothing more to add, as most of what there is to say has already been said, and opinions have pretty much crystalized.

As for HNM, a lot of the old HNMs have fallen in status and are considered "baby HNM" now by a lot of the community. Steelfleece would probably fall into this category, but just barely, if only for the title you get from killing him. High(ly) or Hyper or w/e, doesn't make much diff.

[Balodoth]

Re: They threw me in jail!

Oh brother. Does this really have to go on this long? Is anyone here a lawyer that can review the TOS, clarify the situation with a few questions, and explain the nuances to us?

While I'm not a lawyer myself, I have worked in positions requiring me to interpret terms and conditions of service. I've had to put serious research and consideration into how I administered them. And I've even gone toe to toe with lawyers in the past who differed on the interpretation.

The reason I point out we can all agree the other party's actions were in poor taste instead of saying they did something wrong is because the TOS is not sufficiently explicit. A highly strict interpretation, would support little ninja's claim that the other team also deserved to be jailed. A more lenient interpretation though would allow for their actions as tolerated albeit unethical.

As others have pointed out, S-E has already set the precedent that taking over a monster when the claim is lost is permitted. A GM is not in the position to question this precedent, although he has room to maneuver for individual circumstances. The fact that little ninja had this happen to him repeatedly actually works in their favor since this infers he was regularly able to get a claim. The fact pointed out previously that BST are capable of not losing claim through various tactics also works in this party's favor. Finally, the limited amount of spawns and respawn time makes this questionable competition fit more within S-E's precedent. If the GM were literally able to watch them ignore several pops while they wait for little ninja's mob to go unclaimed, then yes, that could change the situation. Given various comments by little ninja on the situation, as well as comments on game mechanics by others, it would seem though that this was not the case. The party seemed to be fighting their own mobs and, at worst, only pausing when seeing little ninja was in a position to lose claim shortly.

No amount of TOS is going to make their actions any more pleasant and acceptable to those affected by it. But the TOS does preclude taking action to stop them, either by the GM or other players. The fact that this can fit within the TOS means that it should; especially from a business perspective.

As far as the TOS in regards to little ninja, he has admitted to breaking them. No explanation is necessary. And the TOS provides no provisions for those who break it in response to another infraction, real or imagined.

There is also one other undeniable fact. This is in the past. Why are we arguing about could have/should have/would have? If this thread is going to continue further, then why not discuss more productive ways to handle this situation in the future without landing yourself in jail? Where are the lines between being a nuisance and breach of TOS? Are there ways to persuade S-E to change their policies? Let's not argue about what we can't change and discuss what we can.