They threw me in jail!

[Omni]

Re: They threw me in jail!

not a problem tomatoes. its hard as it is to communicate with single file comments that are time delayed by however long. totally understandable.

If you're going to say that calling your friends to charm and sit on a set of mobs until people you don't like take off then you also have to say that if I called a group of RDM to keep them slept without killing them until the OP left is just fine.

That he charmed a mob that was free is not the problem and is not why the GM took action against them. It was because he called his friends to charm them for the express purpose of preventing anyone else from getting the drop hoping to force them to leave because they hurt his feelings.

you're right. i am going to say that. i will have to say that rdm's sleeping mobs is fine too. so is 6 ninjas with ninja kyhan at night kiting 6 mobs. and so is a whole alliance of 75s coming down and stomping all over your camp.

indeed, yellow is fair.

you are drawing the line at bst cant do this bst cant do that. but not using that same line when it comes to other people. so i repeat again, yes it is OK for your scenario to take place.

since when is one job more or less able to play how they feel like? youre imposing that bsts cant charm mobs that someone else might want and/or are valuable. then on the same token, saying that its ok for a pt to take a bsts mob at 1% hp, but hey, guess what? that mob might be valuable to the bst too? what a idea huh?

so as we continue to talk in circles, lets think of other creative ways to illustrate how yellow is fair... i personally like my 6 nin kiting at night with 25%+ movement speed.

[Harrison]

Re: They threw me in jail!

It is because for one he knew it would happen and did not take steps to prevent it, and two thats the way the game works and he should be well aware of that by now.

You may have claim on one mob, the one you are fighting. The moment you attack another, the system waits for a brief moment, and when you do not continue to attack that mob it goes unclaimed. Charm is an attack. Your current pet dies, you attack another hoping that the attack is successful and you have that target under your control. However in that time, you may or may not loose claim on the other mob you were attacking. Thats not a glitch or bug and it effects everyone equally. Everyone should know that by now and if you were in a position where you might loose a claim while charming, well you should also be smart enough to take steps to prevent it from happening.

If you're going to say that calling your friends to charm and sit on a set of mobs until people you don't like take off then you also have to say that if I called a group of RDM to keep them slept without killing them until the OP left is just fine.

That he charmed a mob that was free is not the problem and is not why the GM took action against them. It was because he called his friends to charm them for the express purpose of preventing anyone else from getting the drop hoping to force them to leave because they hurt his feelings.

Um, play bst before you try and tell us how it works, because you are absolutely wrong. Charming another mob has nothing to do with it. You can lose claim after a leaving a pet regardless. You can leave a pet, pop a jug and send it at the mob and still lose claim even though you had hate and never once attacked/charmed another mob. You can melee alongside a pet for an entire fight, leave it right at the end, and the mob will go unclaimed even though you've done 1000+ damage yourself to it. I had a mob dia'd, melee'd the whole time, left my pet, did my WS but it didn't finish it off, half a second later it goes unclaimed and it dies from DoT from dia and I receive no exp. Or how about the soulflayer I was trying to solo that I was pulling back to my other pets, pet still charmed, both heading back to me but then some party is able to steal it because it decides to go unclaimed even though it's still chasing me and my pet?

The system is broken in regards to bst because it doesn't affect all jobs equally. Pet swapping is not the cause for mobs going unclaimed. Something in the coding causes BST to lose claim when they use leave even if they have plenty of hate built up. It has nothing to do with charm being an "attack" on another mob and you lose claim because you attack another mob.

IMO, both parties behaved very poorly, it's just the one party's behaviour was punishable by one GM's "interpretation" of what the regulartions are. Holding mobs as pets to keep others from killing them isn't any more harassing then stealing the mobs from someone after they rightfully claimed them, knocked the majority of their life off, and clearly had the intent to finish them but never gets a kill because of abuse of the system. Please tell me how this is different? A mob can't be held for an infinite amount of time on charm, it will eventually uncharm if the Beastmaster doesn't leave it. When it uncharms, the party has every opportunity to claim it then.

I'd also like to know when this policy of holding mobs with charm is against ToS and harassment became hard fact. Back when stroper chymes dropped archer rings, my linkshell and I decided to try and hunt some. The gilsellers in there, after our arrival proceeded to charm the stropers chymes and just run around the zone with them trying to get us to leave. We put several GM calls in, and we all got told the same thing, that they had the right to do that. I guess if you are a gilseller you can do whatever you want then, but legit players who are having mobs stolen from them do it, it's considered harassment and a bannable offense. BTW, we WERE able to get claims off them eventually when the pets decharmed or they tried to leave them and recharm. The rude mob stealing party could have done the exact same thing if they really tried.

[little ninja]

Re: They threw me in jail!

Agreed. And I apologize to you Omni for reacting so rudely for calling out Ziero with the "moral nightstick" thing. I didn't realize he (and Kailea) were so... misinformed (trying to be polite here and not use a diff word...)

Double Post Edited:


This is a good point. However, try to think about it this way. We all agree that you can only have claim on one monster at a time right? When you charm another monster, you effectively have 2 mobs on your hate list for a brief moment (i.e. not long enough for other people to attempt claim/steal, since Charm is virtually an instant ability). But when Charm successfully lands, your hate list should go back to only having a single mob (i.e. the original mob you were fighting. Thus imo, as a BST, you should retain claim (ideally). I would even go as far as to say that charming shouldn't generate hate. Only mischarming should, so on a successful charm, you should only have enmity one a single mob throughout.

Then again when you release you also lose claim on the original mob your fighting. technically hate should automatically be transfered from the pet to me. since i had be generating hate the whole time. yet ive actually gotten off 4 swings an a rampage on a mob an it never went red. it didnt die either. the fifth swing finally killed it. an i killed it unclaimed.

sorry harrison didnt catch your post intime before i wrote down my same mishappenings.

[Tomatoes]

Re: They threw me in jail!

Then again when you release you also lose claim on the original mob your fighting. technically hate should automatically be transfered from the pet to me. since i had be generating hate the whole time. yet ive actually gotten off 4 swings an a rampage on a mob an it never went red. it didnt die either. the fifth swing finally killed it. an i killed it unclaimed.

Well, I don't know about pet hate transferring over Trick Attack style, but yeah, Fight/Sic/Dia/melee on your part should be plenty to retain claim. The fact that it isn't is a pretty serious issue, which a lot of people don't acknowledge.

[Magnus V.]

Re: They threw me in jail!

First off I was in no way trying to attack you directly Tomatoes.. I was just using your posts as they best decribed the reasoning i was debating (except on the 3 pages not asked which was more a general point)

And didnt realize you didnt jump in till page 3.

((Not here to make enemies just state my opinion on right/wrong))

A 75 BRD trying to pass off 5xp per mob as "meritting." Yeah, I could try and prove that you're not just patient. Or we could just cut through the crap and acknowledge that you're not really meritting. Maybe you can try to convince your party that chain0 5xp kills = meritting the next time you're invited to meripo in Thickets. No reasonable person that is familiar with this game would believe you, yes?

If i was by myself?.. 5xp wouldnt be that bad, i see your point that i could flag up and get a party anytime i wish.. but if for some reason i wanted to solo merits.. theres not much more than EP i could farm.. but the point wasnt was i bullshiting the GM. (Obviously i would be) but the point is that they should have been pulling in decent xp off the VT wolves.. which could have been said to be an XP party with using the Eyes as pets. In my opinion (as thats what any of us have at this point) the eyes are fair game to use, they are charmable, there is no rule saying if its a farmable pet its against TOS to use. see what i mean anyway?

I didn't even look at the thread till it was already 3 pages. Are you suggesting it's not right for people to expect fuller disclosure, especially from somebody that has already admitted to doing similar things in the past? Although, I guess that's not really fair to bring in if you're not a regular reader on the BST forum. Suffice to say, this isn't the first time little ninja has resorted to his "tricks of the trade." Hence, my skepticism towards him.

Nope, didnt know.. I just started on these forums.. started by watching the videos, which was an awesome idea BTW

Thank you for re-iterating somehing that should be pretty obvious? I already said that the PT was wrong in the first sentence of my first post in this thread. Seriously dude, find something better if you're so inclined to call me out, instead of this petty shit.

Well only reason i brought that up was that everyone else was saying shit like "thats the way its supposed to be" and "Party was fair in stealing, but bst wrong in charming" so i wasnt trying to be rude was just glad that even though you were debating against the TOS of what he did that the idea of the claim system is BS.

Sorry if i came off rude that is not my intention.. my intention as stated was to debate the wrong.

Also shouldnt the 2nd GM have seen the 1st GM's msg and seen the BST was wronged?

If not dont they look in your account record when you are reported? would he not have seen the report made and action took? and seen the 1st GM told him charm was ok?

But as far as the TOS.. I would imagine that its black & white.. so if the OP was doing as he said and killing other mobs with the pets and only said what he did?.. then its not against TOS. Maybe GM showed up as you were waiting on recast for reward and thought you were holding.

As far as not releasing the pets or letting them die off, to the GM could have been argued that you knew they would kill it meaning your down a pet for the party.

Im not saying GM's are idiots im just saying id imagine they'd have to have some sort of proof to back a suspension... unless gm's dont care and SE wont listen... Wait N/M what am i saying does SE ever listen?

[Ziero]

Re: They threw me in jail!

Right, and by the same token, yellow is fair to charm then no? You're only applying the rule to what you want enforced and saying its illegal when someone else uses that rule.

So your likely answer will be, its not fair to hold. ok i follow you, but then so he's only allowed to charm that mob when no one is around? or when less than 6 people are around? or if 1 other person is around, he cant charm them then? This is where this shit hits the fan. The loose interpretaton of the TOS. What is the rule?

Yellow is fair, but only if you claim and not charm?
Yellow is far on pet swaps too but not if you steal on slept mobs?
Charming is ok only when it doesnt hurt others? or when the mob isnt valuable?
What is it?

Consistency please, I think thats what we all want.

...what the HELL are you smoking? I said that if you claim a slept mob it is EXACTLY the same as claiming a mob during a pet swap. Go, look it up, please show me where I said anything other wise.

And since you don't seem to get it, i'll have to use smaller words.

He had FIVE friends charm the ONLY FIVE mobs that dropped this ONE item in the ENTIRE GAME. Then kept them for 45 MINUTES. That means he HALTED ANY CHANCE OF THOSE MONSTERS DROPPING THE ITEM. That is the clear and total definition of Holding. If he charmed ONE mob and fought other mobs, the released it at low HP or let it die he would have NOT BEEN JAILED. But he purposely kept it alive and claimed and would not let it die and respawn.

Do you just not understand english or do you blindly side with any and all Bsts despite whether they are wrong or not?

what? you're saying that its wrong for him to not want to use CC on this mob, because, well.... 1, CC wont last long. 2, it would die before his next call beast timer was up and 3, he would end up dying.

Please ziero, stop. You have no clue on how bst works. not an inkling. You're just arguing with lil nin just to see who can get the 1up on who. Taking CC to one of these mobs would get you killed or close to it. It has NO relation to how much he wants to spend. He doesnt want to spend CC on this mob b/c its POINTLESS to use CC or any jug cuz it would die so fast. Jug pets are not as strong as charmed pets. Please understand this. Call beast timer isnt short either.

Then I guess CC could never completely solo a lvl 60 HNM that spams mighty strikes, uses petrify moves and max HP down as well as massivly powerful crit attacks? Oh wait, they can! CC can also absorb two full Flares and still live too, the OP said that. Apparently this lil crab isn't as weak as you pretend it to be, especially when the OP said that jugs were 'ok' but he just didn't want to spend the gil.

IF even all this is a point, its not your place to tell someone how to farm. The whole purpose of farming is to make money and/or save money no??? Why do you want to be spending more money than youre bringing in when you farm? Of course he doesnt want to use his HQ jug pets when theres better and stronger pets to charm. Who wouldnt?

I didn't tell him what to do, I asked why he didn't use a more ToS friendly option then purposely halting any and all production of this single item in game. He knew what he was doing was wrong and did it because of his own ignorance and disregard of the ToS. The Pt WAS rude a bunch of rude jackasses, according to his side of the story, but they were well within the ToS to do what they did. He was not.

Omni has a point. i made this point as well as others. yellow is fair game to swipe from em on a leave or pet swap. then yes it is fair game to charm. ToS doesnt say anything about not charming mobs who drop stuff. now does it, instead of arguing a point, base it with fact. i already based the fact i was being griefed an harrassed. i even gave definitions an meanings. Now support your claim with hard word for word proof for the ToS. otherwise go back to the Thf boards.

The following are examples of prohibited behavior in FINAL FANTASY XI. In addition, please refer to the Rules of Conduct section of Service and Support for examples of prohibited behavior in PlayOnline.

- Using another person's handle to impersonate them or deliberately mislead players
- Using another person's PlayOnline ID
- Stalking behavior
- Using language that is not appropriate for a public place
- Deliberately disrupting coversations, or dominating the log window in order to exclude others from chat
- Deliberately flooding the chat window with say, shout, or tell messages that are unrelated to cameplay
- Taking advantage of programming errors, such as bugs/exploits, for any reason
- Using any programs not specified or provided by Square Enix
- Using third party equipment and/or programs for controlling in-game characters without being physically present in front of the game terminal (i.e. using "bots")
- Using words considered to be offensive, or words that could mislead other players (such as names of products, groups, or companies) for character and/or linkshell names
- Ignoring the directions of any Game Master (GM)
- Engaging in fraudulent acts within the game
Fraudulent acts, such as deliberately breaking a promise, deceiving other players, or concluding an exchange unfairly can destroy trust between players and inhibit the growth of the in-game community. Such acts are, therefore, strictly prohibited.
Players found engaging in such acts will be penalized in accordance with the PlayOnline Member Agreement. In addition, all records of those players in question will be thoroughly reviewed, and all items and gil obtained through such acts will be confiscated.
- Harassment by MPK, shadowing, etc.
MPK (inducing monsters to attack other characters), unilateral shadowing, continually sending messages or items to the recipient, or deliberately obstructing other players is strictly prohibited.
- Engaging in actions that disrupt other players
While play styles in FINAL FANTASY XI may differ amongst players, any behavior that markedly disrupts other players is prohibited. When such behavior is observed, a game master may order you to discontinue such behavior.
When this happens, please promptly obey these orders. The following are examples of such behavior.
* Gridlocking
Crowding commonly visited places and/or blocking popular pathways for an extended period of time in masses, or any such be havior that makes it too difficult or impossible for other players to visit such places or go through such pathways, may be deemed an act of gridlocking

Monopolizing monsters and obstructing battles
Preventing other players from engaging in battle with certain monsters and/or obstructing other players' battles with certain monsters is considered disruptive behavior. For example, monopolizing notorious monsters, which are popular targets among players, for extended periods of time is a clear example of disruptive behavior towards other players.

*Preventing progress of missions and quests

Any action in addition to monopolizing certain monsters, occupying certain areas, and/or possessing certain items for extended times that makes it too difficult or impossible for other players to complete missions and/or quests is considered to be disruptive behavior towards other players.

Where does it say you can't claim yellow mobs? It certainly says you can't monopolize NMs or monsters used in quests or missions, which these mobs can be considered. And any argument to the contrary falls short because saying 'it's not an NM' doesn't change the fact that this is the ONLY way to obtain that single item.

Now as for you losing claim even with jugs, I'll admit I didn't know that cause when I watched a bst solo Steelfleece baldrich he never lost claim the *one* time he had to resummon Carrie. If that is a case then *that* is a problem, but none moreso then an alliance of people losing claim on a mob they've been fighting for an hour due to it randomly going yellow. Which if that does happen to you, as it did to me, then there is nothing you can do about it but deal with it. Whether pet swaps or sleep nuking or whatever, if it goes yellow it is fair game. Though this may be unfair, rude, and whatever it's still within the ToS to do.

And I NEVER once said the pt didn't do anything 'wrong' I said they didn't break the ToS. You had just as much chance to reclaim the mob when it went yellow as they did. You knew that mobs change color when you swapped and there's nothing you could do about it. They were wrong and rude, and I SAID THAT MANY MANY MANY MANY TIMES (all of which you refuse to acknowledge) but they did NOT break the ToS.

You did, stop bitching. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU BEING A BEASTMASTER.

If any, ANY ANY job did that THEY would have been jailed too. Stop trying to make it like you're being persecuted for your job, you're not. You as a PLAYER intentionally broke the ToS and got punished for it.

[Tomatoes]

Re: They threw me in jail!

I should probably be flayed for linking blue gartr, but I think some of you need to see the reality of GMs in this game:

http://www.theorderls.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11020

[Harrison]

Re: They threw me in jail!

Then I guess CC could never completely solo a lvl 60 HNM that spams mighty strikes, uses petrify moves and max HP down as well as massivly powerful crit attacks? Oh wait, they can! CC can also absorb two full Flares and still live too, the OP said that. Apparently this lil crab isn't as weak as you pretend it to be, especially when the OP said that jugs were 'ok' but he just didn't want to spend the gil.

Sure, when the beastmaster is 75. If the beastmaster is anywhere near the level of the mob they are trying to fight, CC would get ripped to shreads. If a 70 BST is fighting a level 65 hecteye, CC wouldn't stand a chance. BTW, Steelfleece is only 55ish and did it take just the one Courier Carrie to take it out? That should show you how strong jug pets are when it's 20 levels higher then the mob and it still loses. Since when did the use of muliple jugs become carrie can solo it. Carrie can solo something when she can take it down by herself without dying and without pet food.

Monopolizing monsters and obstructing battles
Preventing other players from engaging in battle with certain monsters and/or obstructing other players' battles with certain monsters is considered disruptive behavior. For example, monopolizing notorious monsters, which are popular targets among players, for extended periods of time is a clear example of disruptive behavior towards other players.

I'm still not seeing where it says you can't keep charmable mobs charmed. It's pretty vague in what it states, in fact if you read it says monopolizing only CERTAIN monsters is against the rules and the only specific example it gives are notorious monsters. Charmable mobs aren't Notorious Monsters. Since when did 45 minutes = monopolizing? Monopolizing is when the only damn people who get an NM/item are the same friggin group day in and day out (aka gilsellers), yet you see GM's do absolutely nothing about them.

Also, it's not making it impossible to complete a mission or quest, because a) O-Hat is not a quest or mission, and b) you can easily go buy a cluster/eye in rolanberry fields from a bazaar. Isn't stealing an already engaged mob considered "preventing other players from engaging in battle"? Both acts are wrong, and BOTH can be interrupted as disruptive behavior.

[neighbortaru]

Re: They threw me in jail!

so, um... you think they'll resolve this peacefully before we have to lock it?

[Tomatoes]

Re: They threw me in jail!

Then I guess CC could never completely solo a lvl 60 HNM that spams mighty strikes, uses petrify moves and max HP down as well as massivly powerful crit attacks? Oh wait, they can! CC can also absorb two full Flares and still live too, the OP said that. Apparently this lil crab isn't as weak as you pretend it to be, especially when the OP said that jugs were 'ok' but he just didn't want to spend the gil.

...

Where does it say you can't claim yellow mobs?

You don't know what you're talking about. One of these days, if/when you progress farther in the game, you might look back on this thread and realize how ridiculous some of the things you said are.

[Taskmage]

Re: They threw me in jail!

Not a chance

[little ninja]

Re: They threw me in jail!

My eyes fail me, point out where it says charming unclaimed mobs is a violation of the ToS.

Then point out where it says only pets a Bst may use in a zone is a jug pet.

[Magnus V.]

Re: They threw me in jail!

TomatoesI should probably be flayed for linking blue gartr, but I think some of you need to see the reality of GMs in this game:

http://www.theorderls.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11020

LOL!!! I didnt know it was that bad, i thought they at least helped a little on every call... or didnt do anything.. not give stupid advice they should know better

[Tomatoes]

Re: They threw me in jail!

LOL!!! I didnt know it was that bad, i thought they at least helped a little on every call... or didnt do anything.. not give stupid advice they should know better

Sadly, that might just be the tip of the iceberg.

[Omni]

Re: They threw me in jail!

thats a mighty big shovel you got ziero. keep digging yourself the hole, its looking pretty impressive thus far.

im trying to have you see that, what you are trying to apply to bst should be applied to everyone.

you keep saying its ok for everyone (other than bst) to claim a mob. but when a bst does it, its called holding. all i want for you to see is that you cant say its bad for bst then not bad for a pt.

oh actually harrison explained it for you already.

thanks for posting part of the TOS.

Engaging in actions that disrupt other players
While play styles in FINAL FANTASY XI may differ amongst players, any behavior that markedly disrupts other players is prohibited.

just because the gm didnt catch the pt harassing him doesnt mean its ok. this is what i want you to see.

Preventing other players from engaging in battle with certain monsters and/or obstructing other players' battles with certain monsters is considered disruptive behavior. For example, monopolizing notorious monsters, which are popular targets among players, for extended periods of time is a clear example of disruptive behavior towards other players.

and this...

Harassment by MPK, shadowing, etc.

They were disrupting his play by taking his 1% hp mob, that he spent time killing. they gave it the final blow and reaped the rewards.

shadowing, when people take mobs on a pet swap, they usually follow the bst around. not necessarily put on /follow, but they just stick with the bst or keep him in visual range.

so with these points of the TOS, how is as you said, the GM 100% correct? apply these rules to the pt that began the harassment. if you want the GM to be 100% correct, throw everyone in jail.

Please dont whip out th TOS when you want to prove a point but dont want to see the TOS when the tables are flipped. TOS needs to be blanket statement for all players. the very points you say lil nin violated, they did also.

as for your reference to Steelfleece, let me clue you in on a few things.
1. he's blind.
2. he's blind.
3. he's blind.
4. most jobs 70+ can solo steelfleece.
5. i solo'd him as a 72 nin with a gimp thf sub, no i wouldnt say that. i manhandled him. he didnt land 1 hit on me. so a lv. 60+ bst with a 60CC vs. a lv. 55-56 mob? great comparison.
6. he isnt a hnm, just a 24hr pop nm.

as far as his friends charming for 45min, and btw, i speak english very well thanks. it just further goes to show you are sufferinig from inexperience. you cannot charm a mob for 45min. the longest you can hold onto 1 mob, is 30min iirc with bst 2hr. at some time, they will uncharm and you will need to charm them again. your lack of knowledge and abundance of opinions about a subject you have no ground to be standing on is amazing. 5 friends holding 5 mobs, 6 pt members taking 1 mob already being killed, whats your point? whos worse? haha, as i said before, consistency. you jail 5 ppl for holding all the mobs you should jail 6 ppl for taking the bsts ONLY mob.

and finally, yes you were telling him how to play his job. atleast you were condeming him for not being able to fight the mob with a jug pet because he was too cheap. he can fight it however he wants. if he doesnt want to use a jug pet doesnt mean he isnt ready or deserving of taking down the mob as you so kindly implied.