Isn't it odd...

[Shopee]

Re: Isn't it odd...

Maybe you guys are right, but a lot of the time (dynamis, CoP, a lot of H/NMs) no one wants the bst to come if possible.

Well, that's their problem ain't it. =P

See if you can hook up just once (make an extra special effort) in an event like one of these. If you get the chance to prove yourself, you may get a lot more oppurtinity.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Isn't it odd...

Well, Dynamis has the issue of pet behavior (in terms of jugs) becuase in most cases you are attacking only what the tank says to attack, and if your pet auto targets the wrong mob, it can start you on a slide down hill. I suppose a savy play wouldn't have this use but its there just the same. Even so, my Dynamis LS doesn't care if your BST or not. In fact, we've made several comments about our complete lack of BST in recent weeks.

As for CoP, my affore mentioned friend is doing CoP with FamiliarAvatar, who recently jug burned through the first promies, and does pretty much everything with BST and SMN only (though mostly BST).

They also do plenty of HNMs. I don't know how it is on other servers, but at least in Odin BST (and smn) have a place to go for these things.

I dunno. Maybe my friends are just more open minded than most players.

[Veve]

Re: Isn't it odd...

I wanted to try BST in promy but my lses wouldn't let me. D:

Yeah, dynamis I can understand. As far as I know (not sure about after patch) BST/SMN can do the following HNMs:

Tiamat
Jorm (JP BST LS did it if I remember right)
Cactuar Rapido
Most sky HNMs

But you have to remember, what's the easist/safest way of doing things?

[Firedevil]

Re: Isn't it odd...

Not that I condone this, but I just wanted to let you know, there is still a way to MPK. For example in the Garliage Citadel Basement, when you are fighting Hellmines: *Theoretically* you can Call for Help, and when the bomb blows up anyone in range will get hit since anyone can join in that fight. I haven't tested this, but I have been told it works. I guess the same goes with all AOE mobs when you call for help.


Small print: MPK is bad! I don't condone it in any way! Don't try this at home.

[Harrison]

Re: Isn't it odd...

Maybe you guys are right, but a lot of the time (dynamis, CoP, a lot of H/NMs) no one wants the bst to come if possible.

Um, BST kicks all form of ass in CoP. Too bad you never got to experience a BST in CoP. I have no experience with the promies as BST, but a BST with a jug is as good if not better than any other melee DD.

Aquaducts - BST own it. What other jobs can possibly duo the minotaur and own every mob in the zone solo?

Mammets - BST is best kiter for that hands down. I've kited two mobs at once after the other kiter (usually a RDM) eats dirt.

Sacrium - See Aquaducts.

I'm on Vahzl atm, so I have no experience with the others. The big advantage of CoP is for the most part they are capped so you have a variety of jugs to choose from when there aren't locals to charm like the aquaducts or sacrium. For god's sake, don't use Courier Carrie when you are trying to be a damage dealer, she's a tank.

As for regular exp, BST can outparse just about anyone with the right jug pet. Even with the crab they are hanging near the top but give a pimped out BST a Lars, Allie, or Chucky in a merit party and they'll own everyone.

[Omni]

Re: Isn't it odd...

Comments like that are the exact reason people look down on BST, you know. Seriously if you want people to change thier attitude towards BST and thier XP ways, then drop the attitude. Until you do, you're just another ass hole player no different than the people who LOLZ WTF BST SOLO ANYWHERE NOOB!

I'm not saying thier take on it is right, but just pouring gas on the flame isn't going to do anything but make you look like the people you look down on.

Look down on bst? Well, whenever push comes to shove, its always bst having to budge.

The fact is, people wont change their attitudes. People that are the run-of-the-mill players will NOT change attitudes. This isnt RL where proper education helps situations. The people that have shitted on me in the past, will always shit on a bst, even after politely asking them to play nice.

Considering that everyone on this board understands logic and reason, you hardly find these players out in the field.

So until you've had every xp session shitted on by some punk mid-level pt/ npc leveler or drg staff skillup pt for a good 2 weeks, I dont think its your place to wave the moral police nightstick around.

It's pretty easy to say, 'take the high road and people will listen', you know thats a huge assumption to make. This isnt RL. there are no consequences for people being assholes in the game like there is IRL. That's why if people dont respond to reason and polite suggestions, I do what I need to, to make sure they leave me alone.

I really dont think goodness and unrelenting patience and kindness truely prevails in games. It might once in a while, but I'll put 50gil on the next pt that camps on top of me, will probably give me hell for being there.

edit: dont get me wrong. I've taken the high road many times. I've left camps even when I was the first one there. I've left certain mobs alone at the request of PTs. I doNOT go out of my way to be an ass. Just tell me how i'm supposed to go on with my xp when a pt provokes you. Leave? no, cuz that perpetuates and justifies their actions. However, you know what? Time and time again, PTs will say one thing and do another. So why doesnt anyone get on the 6 people that are being complete inconsiderate assholes than the 1 bst?

Possibly this is where our ideals differ. I dont think backing down to bullies help anything AFTER you have tried to reason with them.

[Tomatoes]

Re: Isn't it odd...

*rolls eyes*

Blustering doesn't make your point any stronger. It just makes you sound like somebody more interested in getting even than in justice.

[Omni]

Re: Isn't it odd...

I dont think what ive said are in any way a threat. I try to nicely resolve things with people with issues occur. Just try to get people to leave me alone if Ive set up camp. I dont go out of my way to bug pts. I can xp next to a pt fine. They are the ones that have the problem with me being there. So if they try to make it difficult for me, I get them to stop. If they stop, I stop. Dont assume I continue using their pets after they leave me alone. Im reasonable enough to let it go once they let up.

[Veve]

Re: Isn't it odd...

I dont think what ive said are in any way a threat. I try to nicely resolve things with people with issues occur. Just try to get people to leave me alone if Ive set up camp. I dont go out of my way to bug pts. I can xp next to a pt fine. They are the ones that have the problem with me being there. So if they try to make it difficult for me, I get them to stop. If they stop, I stop. Dont assume I continue using their pets after they leave me alone. Im reasonable enough to let it go once they let up.

I don't think any BST continues annoying a party after they stopped bothering him/her, there's really no point to that.

[Omni]

Re: Isn't it odd...

exactly. he was assuming that im doing it on purpose, more out of spite. or thats how i read it. anyways...

[Tomatoes]

Re: Isn't it odd...

So you were doing it by accident then? Obviously not, that would be taking you literally to the point of silliness. Kind of like taking the concept of "yellow is fair game" too literally.

But not a single person on this thread has posted anything specific about what the PT did other than compete with you for mobs. The worse I've seen so far is, "oh, they said something mean to me."

party after they stopped bothering him/her

if they try to make it difficult for me

had every xp session shitted on by some punk mid-level pt/ npc leveler

etc, etc, etc...

BE SPECIFIC. BE SPECIFIC. BE SPECIFIC.

These kind of complaints pop up all the time on here, alla, KI. The vast majority of them boil down to simple rudeness and indignation, without any clear violation. So I hope you can understand why I always approach this topic with cynicism.

On the other hand, I am reading things in this thread coming from the BST side that not only stem from poor sportsmanship, but are violations. Dia>Charm>Uncharm? Perpetual depop for the sole purpose of disruption? (and lol at these things being referred to as "tricks of the trade;" glad I'm not on your server lil_nin)

If you get frustrated and strike back, so be it. But please don't pass it off as serving justice or the greater good or some crap like that. It's disingenuous and more importantly, just makes things worse for your fellow BSTs.

Double Post Edited:

The condescension appears to be on a efficiency-only level, as opposed to a generic distaste for the person.

The reason why people look down on BSTs is probably one of the most basic human emotions:

Greed.

They perceive (correctly or not) you to be taking their valuable experience and get irritated. (Not to mention, you are one person taking experience points near to what a party might, which makes you appear to be particularly gluttonous)

Taking such a negative attitude back (as Sevenpoint has pointed out) is only likely to magnify it.

QFT

[Omni]

Re: Isn't it odd...

So you were doing it by accident then? Obviously not, that would be taking you literally to the point of silliness. Kind of like taking the concept of "yellow is fair game" too literally.

But not a single person on this thread has posted anything specific about what the PT did other than compete with you for mobs. The worse I've seen so far is, "oh, they said something mean to me."



BE SPECIFIC. BE SPECIFIC. BE SPECIFIC.

These kind of complaints pop up all the time on here, alla, KI. The vast majority of them boil down to simple rudeness and indignation, without any clear violation. So I hope you can understand why I always approach this topic with cynicism.

On the other hand, I am reading things in this thread coming from the BST side that not only stem from poor sportsmanship, but are violations. Dia>Charm>Uncharm? Perpetual depop for the sole purpose of disruption? (and lol at these things being referred to as "tricks of the trade;" glad I'm not on your server lil_nin)

If you get frustrated and strike back, so be it. But please don't pass it off as serving justice or the greater good or some crap like that. It's disingenuous and more importantly, just makes things worse for your fellow BSTs.

Double Post Edited:


QFT

Apprently, you and I are reading different things.

My reference to your assumptions. Assuming that I'm unprovoked, being a punk to xp pts. My answer was that, these actions only follow after failing to come to an agreement with these PTs and further greifing by these PTs. Apprently, I havent made myself clear enough. I hope this helps.

So I pointed out it's not unprovoked. There's an old thread I started a while back about one of the times I've been harassed.

So lets be specific. Since, as a bst you dont seem to understand where I'm coming from.

Frist, the yellow is fair game rule. I have been told by GMs on 2 separate occasions that, literally, yellow is fair game. Even if it ruins the flow of xp for a bst or xp pt.

Ex: Was in the basement of GC going after hellmines. you know the 4 hellmines near were serket spawns. Alliance of 10 rolls in to get 1 coffer key for 1 pld. Starts killing everything insight. Even mobs that dont drop coffer keys, chamber beetles and funnel bats. Ok, no big deal, if I can get my hand one a couple of these, I dont mind.

They start killing all hellmines also. Ok, thats fine too. After ive asked them politely to leave hellmines alone, they continue to do so ignoring me the whole time. ok sure np.

Then on several pet swaps, they claim my hellmine once it turns yellow and claim my old pet. They even go as far as to follow me to pets im running directly toward to charm and claim them also. I ask them to stop, they continue doing so. I call GM, and he must have repeated the phrase "If its yellow its fair game" a half dozen times.

I posed the scenario to the GM, so if I ran to Valkrum with my nin and killed every mob on the beach, fully knowing that there are 4-6 PTs on that beach and effectively ruining xp for everyone there based on the yellow is fair rule, would that be ok?

He said, that is OK.
Even if it ruins the pt play for say 30 people, just because I wanted to say farm or find a friend a apron?
Yup, its OK, he said.

Example 2: Im in the same area in GC again and a PT comes to camp and just starts buffing while im there battling a hellmine. As they start along, they ask me not to kill any beetles. I say sure, just leave the bats and bombs alone then. Leader says OK.

Next mob they pull, he pulls a bomb. I ask wtf? Leader says, oh we wont do it again. ok... very next mob, takes another bomb.

So again, you tell me where being polite and trying to work things out gets me? These are just 2 examples. I do have good xp sessions, in areas where no one is around. However, more often times than not, in highly populated zones, XP pts dont care and wont ever care. No matter how patient or how much you try to educate them.

Taking such a negative attitude back (as Sevenpoint has pointed out) is only likely to magnify it.

I love how people that do not play bst or solo their xp can tell a bst that we shouldnt have a negative attitude. Where are you when 6 players have negative attitudes towards 1 bst? (thats a rhetorical question btw)

I dont think it makes things worse for BSTs if you tell them to not back down from being bullied. Backing down from them will only make it worse for ALL bsts everywhere. No bst will be taken seriously if all you do is back down when people are being inconsiderate.

[Feba]

Re: Isn't it odd...

About the hellmines, that shouldn't work. Mobs don't AoE you unless you have hate now, which means you or someone in your PT/Alliance has to at least touch the mob somehow or touch someone who has hate in order for them to take damage.

So unless someone helped you kill the bomb, it shouldn't work.

[Tomatoes]

Re: Isn't it odd...

Apprently, you and I are reading different things.

Apparently, you expect ppl to read minds.

So I pointed out it's not unprovoked. There's an old thread I started a while back about one of the times I've been harassed.

And I was supposed to know to reference content outside of this thread how? Seriously, don't act so offended when I call you out for making groundless claims, and then suddenly pull stuff from a different thread and act like I was supposed to know that prior. My "assumptions" have come directly from what you and others have posted in this thread.

Frist, the yellow is fair game rule. I have been told by GMs on 2 separate occasions that, literally, yellow is fair game. Even if it ruins the flow of xp for a bst or xp pt.

LOL @ citing GMs.

Ex: Was in the basement of GC going after hellmines. you know the 4 hellmines near were serket spawns. Alliance of 10 rolls in to get 1 coffer key for 1 pld. Starts killing everything insight. Even mobs that dont drop coffer keys, chamber beetles and funnel bats. Ok, no big deal, if I can get my hand one a couple of these, I dont mind.

They start killing all hellmines also. Ok, thats fine too. After ive asked them politely to leave hellmines alone, they continue to do so ignoring me the whole time. ok sure np.

Then on several pet swaps, they claim my hellmine once it turns yellow and claim my old pet. They even go as far as to follow me to pets im running directly toward to charm and claim them also. I ask them to stop, they continue doing so. I call GM, and he must have repeated the phrase "If its yellow its fair game" a half dozen times.

Thank you for posting something specific! And I totally agree, those guys were being asses. It still doesn't make you Batman, nor should your conscience suddenly change because of it.

I posed the scenario to the GM, so if I ran to Valkrum with my nin and killed every mob on the beach, fully knowing that there are 4-6 PTs on that beach and effectively ruining xp for everyone there based on the yellow is fair rule, would that be ok?

No, because your underlying purpose in that scenario would be to be a jerk. The jackasses going for a Garlaige coffer, at least had a legitimate reason to kill those mobs, up until the point where they changed from merely trying to get a key to trying to get you killed. As I've tried to explain before, intent is key, and unfortunately can also be very subjective, which is one reason why we have so many dumb-as-nails GMs running around, which is also why it's laughable to cite them as a guide to your own innate conscience.

Example 2: Im in the same area in GC again and a PT comes to camp and just starts buffing while im there battling a hellmine. As they start along, they ask me not to kill any beetles. I say sure, just leave the bats and bombs alone then. Leader says OK.

Next mob they pull, he pulls a bomb. I ask wtf? Leader says, oh we wont do it again. ok... very next mob, takes another bomb.

I don't understand why this PT is going after hellmines _and_ beetles? The first is not a good xp target. The second doesn't yield the coffer key. But regardless, it is their choice to fight it or not. And if they took the bombs when you guys agreed not to, you could have just gone right back and took the beetles, no?

So again, you tell me where being polite and trying to work things out gets me?

Nobody ever claimed doing the right thing was easy? Again, if you want to play tit-for-tat, that's your call. My issue is when you and others try to portray it as okay to do, or even noble/justified, which is how the previous posts came off (to me at least, seeing as nobody offered any specific examples and all anybody could assume was that we were talking about the usual feuds over xp camps).

I love how people that do not play bst or solo their xp can tell a bst that we shouldnt have a negative attitude. Where are you when 6 players have negative attitudes towards 1 bst? (thats a rhetorical question btw)

All I have to say to this is that a valid counter-argument addresses the message, not the messenger.

I dont think it makes things worse for BSTs if you tell them to not back down from being bullied. Backing down from them will only make it worse for ALL bsts everywhere. No bst will be taken seriously if all you do is back down when people are being inconsiderate.

Stop fudging. Bullying and being inconsiderate can range anywhere from unfriendly competition over mobs to outright MPK. If somebody does the former, I say suck it up and stop griping. If somebody does the latter, by all means do not back down, especially if you get [GM]Wtnite (grumble...).

Double Post Edited:
Oh I hate this topic hate this topic hate this topic hate this topic hate this topic hate this topic hate this topic hate this topic hate this topic hate this topic hate this topic /angry

[little ninja]

Re: Isn't it odd...

Comments like that are the exact reason people look down on BST, you know. Seriously if you want people to change thier attitude towards BST and thier XP ways, then drop the attitude. Until you do, you're just another ass hole player no different than the people who LOLZ WTF BST SOLO ANYWHERE NOOB!

I'm not saying thier take on it is right, but just pouring gas on the flame isn't going to do anything but make you look like the people you look down on.

See now i been on both sides of the fence. There were many times i tried to exp along side other pts. hell i even use to save their behinds when a puller took aggro. an do you know how they repayed me. they took the only 2 pets in the area i was using an they killed them. even after i asked them nicely if they could leave these 2 pets. they turned around an killed them again.

There were also times id be the only guy in a zone for over an hour. an the first pt that shows up expects me to find another location. or all those days i was in areas seeking an never got an invite. cause of reason this or that.

Its never been the Bsts with the attitude. but the other players. they see a job 5 lvls higher then them, an they automatically think were getting 31 exp a kill, when were not. we are actually getting 200 a kill. maybe its the fact they think we are ruining their exp bacause we sometimes take 2 pets to kill 1 mob. maybe they hate bst because we play this game of risks. with nobody to save our own behinds except for our skill. while they are conformed to boring pts, with all those safety nets. 5 other players, pl, other pts ect.

To me the bst job is like rambo. they pushed him, an they pushed him. til his survival skills kicked in. an he made them pay. He made them all pay. that is how i now play bst. i mind myself until you wanna push me. then it time to go into survival mode. an whos gonna be more effected me or them.