Anyone ever think of this

[Tomatoes]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

Answer this then, why has all parsed data shown BST to beat out everything else, including WARs?

With all due respect, I can't take your claims seriously with those kind of blanket statements. There have only been a few notable BST+Pet merit PT parses that I've seen. None of them gave any specific info on equipment/merit details. It was like saying there's no saltwater on the planet, but only taking a few samples from rivers. Could you cite/URL the parses you are referring to?

Also, you say BST can get DA, zerk, etc, and then say you can also get dual-wield enhancements. But it seems like you didn't mention the fact that WAR can do both of these at the same time, whereas BST has to pick one or the other. Not to mention, WAR also has access to Aggressor as well as a bit higher base DD attributes I believe.

And another question I have is job-specific merits. I'm unsure if you merit Berserk and/or Aggressor, will that carry over to /war?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see BST shine, but it doesn't bother me if WAR is a better DD as well (I like both jobs, or more accurately, I like all jobs in this game). It just seems that your claims so far have been only anecdotal and perhaps a little biased? I'd actually prefer to see something like woodville/maneater parses rather than Temperance and Ridill parses, as most BST and WAR will not have access to those, rendering the comparisons slightly useless for the majority of us.

[tordall]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

The merit-point-party-parse that everyone always drools over was Bst/nin using Man/Temp + LDL, War/nin using Man/Ridill, War/nin using Ridill/joy. The bst/nin did 'win' that parse, but if you look it would take roughly a week worth of farming for all the consumables they used up to beat the war's.

At a more reasonable level, a well geared beastmaster can keep up with more 'common' equipment on warriors (even exceed them sometimes), but it's a very rare situation when a beastmaster clear outdamages a warrior.

With regaurd to 'tweaks' for beastmaster, in one of those 'let's make excitement for ToAU' interviews they said that they wanted to give something to beastmaster, but couldn't figure out what because it was already a very powerful job.

As it is, beastmaster is in the 2nd tier of DDs (not counting exceptional gear) that can add a pet to be in the first tier of DDs. In exchange for the reliance on pets, beastmaster gets some pretty amazing soloing abilities, and some pretty amazing small group abilities.

Anyway, cheap, easily avalable uncapped jug pets (that are double-attack capable) for level 75 would be a godsend to the party beastmaster. Other things might be to allow either our gear to affect our pets and/or to allow us to merit our pets accuracy and attack.

[Silenus]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

Berserker. lol

I'd love to see anybody that activates "Berserk" actually GO "Berserk." You know, hitting anything and everything in the way, pt members included, other mobs, etc.

God I'd get such a kick out of that.

You'd totally lose control of your character and just rage for a while, then "wake up" and look over the dead bodies. Super sweet.

[Perdurabo]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

I'm gonna agree with Tomatoes.

As i said before, a bst can use haste gear, but if you read my post from before you would see my points regarding it.

And in answer to his question, job specific merits don't work when subbed.

PS: I'd really like to see this parse as i don't see how a bst, no matter what weapons, can keep up with a ridill warrior.

I am glad to think that this argument is npt going to go the same way the one on allakhazam did where i got flamed to hell and my posts rated into oblivion by the god awful karma system because i dared to say war > bst DD. I cannot express my joy at finding an unbiased board.

[Chulo]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

Perdurabo, by "unbiased" I assume you mean that the last several posters agree with you?

Perdurabo, tordall, Tomatoes, if any of you would care to post actual proof (like parses) to support your opinions, I'm sure a lot of BSTs here would be happy to give some kind of weight to what you're saying. But as it stands, all you're doing is talking up your sleeves.

The BST > WAR side has provided parses (I've seen 4-5 at levels 60-75) and stories like "the WAR I saw was doing the same as me as BST w/o pet" whereas the WAR > BST side just names job abilities as if that is some kind of proof.

In the absence of proof I'd probably go along with this WAR > BST fairy tale too. But until I see some parses (more than one) I'm going to believe the actual proof I have seen rather than forcefully argued opinions.

Rate down (if that were possible) for condescending trash talk that tries to replace fact with opinion. It's like listening to the Taliban around here. :-(

Final word: BST + pet DD > WAR DD until proven otherwise.

[Tomatoes]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

Chulo, chill out dude. I think the only person talking trash here is you.

I think when Perd says "unbiased" he means being open to all possibilities, even ones that don't necessarily put the best light on our beloved main (I'm assuming that most of us here are BST main, or aspiring so). Most of us just want to have clear knowledge, rather than taking a "side."

Anyway, I would love to post my own parses, but the simple fact of the matter is that I don't have access to the resources to get some controlled and legit testing done. Not to mention, that parses themselves hardly constitute irrefutable evidence (anybody remember Bigokk's Life Belt vs. Sarashi tests? No offense to Bigokk when I say this, as he contributed a lot of effort and info on the WAR forum). The vast majority of them are largely uncontrolled for variables and/or lacking details like equipment/merit comparisons (which was already pointed out above). So all I can do is observe and make a few common sense deductions based on well-established game mechanics. These are facts, not "forcefully argued opinions." i.e.

1) WAR will have higher base DD stats.
2) WAR has access to more DD JAs and Traits than BST, which typically has to choose either /war or /nin, not both.
3) BST pet augments overall damage for the BST.

Generally speaking, given #1 and #2, how can anybody possibly conclude that BST DD w/o pet = WAR DD? I can maaaybe see this happening during Wrath Tabar levels, but otherwise, I think it's going the other way.

I think #3 is probably the heart of the debate here, and like I said above, sometimes Carrie just doesn't cut it. Of course, that's my opinion.

Final Word: Nobody can conclude that BST+Pet > WAR in DD, or vice versa based on what's been said in the thread so far.

P.S. Please post the 4-5 parses you said you've seen or post your own. Otherwise, it's pretty rude to not hold yourself to the standards you set for others. And if you want a real example of "forcefully argued opinion," read your own post about where you say "stories like 'the WAR I saw was doing the same as me as BST w/o pet.'"

[Perdurabo]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

Uh huh, you want me to show parses when we have your second hand, marvellous anecdotal evidence? Compelling argument.

No offence, but if anyone ever claims to be doing equal damage to war, pre pet, they are lieing. Either this, or they have gear that is SUBSTANTIALLY better than the war.

If both a war and a bst are similarly equipped there won't be an arguement as to who is hitting harder.

As far as my condescending trash talk goes, I never said i don't like bst, or bst is crap. I just said war is a better DD and i am glad people aren't wildly abusing me for saying so on a bst forum.

If you read my posts, used logic, and from MY anecdotal experience, i have found war to be a better DD than bst.

So in terms of your last comment, the simple answer is: No.

It depends on the circumstance entirely. In a fast killing burn party, a warrior will out DD a bst by virtue of hitting harder and faster, and thus WSing more (read my other posts). In a normal exp party where there are SCs and longer fights for more exp, at lower levels with less haste gear, a BST -MIGHT- pull ahead because of added DoT from the pet.

Edit: i just saw the post above mine and he said it more eloquently than I.

[Lmnop]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

I'm very interested in seeing Bst party parses. I don't care so much about how they compare to some war/nin. Just partyinng in general. DRG parses often show DRG doing - say - 24% damage and Wyvern doing another 9%. So I wonder if Bst would be closer to 15% bst*/ 15% pet or something.

*Bst have roughly the same core melee stats as DRG (Str and Dex growth) but lack the traits that make it so DRGs normally almost double slower melee's TP gain. While we're at it, Bst melee (statistically) is about the same as a PLD with a Company Sword. Wood/Temperence would come rather close to Company/Joyeuse but I don't like to think about the multi-hit weapons as they break the game. At any rate, a Pld isn't going to keep up with a War (/point PLD forums) and they have a higher Str growth than Bst.

I don't doubt Bst + pet could outdamage a war. but bst damage itself will never be "the same as a war/nin" or even "almost the same as the war."

[Chulo]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

My point about the "unbiased" comment is that just because people agree with you doesn't mean they are open minded, it most likely means they share the same bias: open minded people are likely to question you, especially when the logic you're using is weak.

I cringe when I read something like "job x has this ability therefore they will kick butt in parties." The combat system is complex enough that many factors must be considered to show better DoT. In fact, I think it is so complex that only parses can really tell us something.

Sure, parses are inexact because gear, food and other party members (e.g. Bards) can affect the results. However, a parse is better than someone's impression that they seem to be hitting for more (Big Number Syndrome is insidious and common). And an eye witness who plays the game is better than a guy with Brady's Guide spread open on his lap who thinks "oooh, STR is 2 higher, must be a killer DD!"

So you can't just list a few job abilities and say logic dictates this job is a better DD than that job. Logical people used to think the world is flat. If anyone wants to make a convincing argument that WAR is a better DD than BST, you're going to have to do better.

I'm not here to try to convince someone that BST is actually better so I'm not going to dig through old Alla threads to find the parses. I will say that I found the numbers compelling. I just want to weigh in so that it does not appear that everyone here thinks WAR is a better DD and to say what I think would be required to have an intelligent discussion.

[little ninja]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

Perdurabo, by "unbiased" I assume you mean that the last several posters agree with you?

Perdurabo, tordall, Tomatoes, if any of you would care to post actual proof (like parses) to support your opinions, I'm sure a lot of BSTs here would be happy to give some kind of weight to what you're saying. But as it stands, all you're doing is talking up your sleeves.

The BST > WAR side has provided parses (I've seen 4-5 at levels 60-75) and stories like "the WAR I saw was doing the same as me as BST w/o pet" whereas the WAR > BST side just names job abilities as if that is some kind of proof.

In the absence of proof I'd probably go along with this WAR > BST fairy tale too. But until I see some parses (more than one) I'm going to believe the actual proof I have seen rather than forcefully argued opinions.

Rate down (if that were possible) for condescending trash talk that tries to replace fact with opinion. It's like listening to the Taliban around here. :-(

Final word: BST + pet DD > WAR DD until proven otherwise.

agreed, its just sad nobody wants to include a bsts pet DD into a bsts total numbers. an thats basically there whole arguments. BST an NO PET, cant not out DD a war.. blah blah blah...

[Perdurabo]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

Hmm your hypocrisy knows no bounds. I have a bias huh? Daring to say bst isn't the best DD on a bst forum, i must be biased when bst is my only 75 job and the favourite class of mine i have played.

Your arguments against logic are incredibly stupid, and thats the only way to answer your claims. 'Logical people thought the world was flat' is a whole lot different to DD traits + same weapon > same weapon + no DD traits.

With no numbers, you have to use logic to prove points, and you have neither.

Edit: In end game exp ONLY (as that is the only area i have ever been parsed in), war > bst + pet, as mobs die too fast for the pet to get in enough hits to narrow the distance between war axes damage and higher rampages.

[Moaku Hyena]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

In order for me to fully understand what's happening, I shall ask...
What is DoT? I always wonder what it meant.

On a side note, I've NEVER seen a high level WAR in action. But I have seen a BST75 in action, and they are amazing.
I've also thought that CourrierCarrie was the highest and strongest pet. But what is Lars? (I may try to level BST beyond 3 myself).

[Perdurabo]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

DoT = damage over time. IE: One would say a thf has weak DoT, but strong spike damage (ie WS)

BST strengths are its DoT, but it is limited by weaker WS than say a mnk or war, who also have good DoT.

Lifedrinker Lars = HQ antlion jug pet. Basically more expensive, but quite significantly stronger than CC.

[Murphie]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

DOT = Damage over time.

[Feba]

Re: Anyone ever think of this

Do you want to know why BSTs don't get parties?




....It's because none of you WANT any! You know how many times I've seen a BST over Lv35 LFG?

I'll give you a hint, it's under "One" and is shaped like a circle.


And the few times I see BSTs who AREN'T /anon and try to invite them, what do I get? {I'm playing solo right now.}.


Don't blame your job's "Stigma" on the fact that you don't party, blame the fact that none of you ever WANT to party with anyone other than other BSTs!