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  • Re: That's all folks

    Ok, let me start off this as a disclaimer. As of this point I'm 'playing the devils advocate' meaning I am stating a view that I have no personal involvment in. I do, in all logic, agree with Rodin, but alow me to present a sperate point of view.
    {DA}
    Squaresoft, and Enix companies, though unified, still contain their individual images as a whole. Both are well established companies with their own reputations and loyal fanbase. Final Fantasy is also a well established RPG, to the point where it is conistered a class on its own. These aspects provide a profound sence of pride in the developers, storyline makers, and the heads of company itself. In several Final Fantasys are job classes, which are established as well, with their own both real life cutlrual history, and in game seriese history.

    Now, remember the pride issue. SE knows its got its loyal fanbace that, while some will leave, they know some will come back, and even more will come in, while some (sadly, like me) will stick it through and through.

    So, speaking frankly, a multi-million doller company gives squat about what image the players beseive of themselves, moreover they are only worried about their company image, and the amount of money they make stays steady. They'll give enough to leave people wanting more and waiting around for the next update (thus paying out the nose).

    So what about enforcing their image of a job class on others? Simple. There are more people that complain about the lack of ability to solo outside the bst job class than those who are bsts themselves. So, cut the BST's preformance down and up the preofmance of others, leveling the playing field. There are more people wanting to 'play the way they want'. Instead of being told by their fellow players how to play their job, so SE creates new updates/methods to try to keep the playing field virsitile.

    Ok, so now people will think that I am contraversing myself. Let me clarify. SE's image of people playing the game 'may be' (As opposed to assuming and saying IS) that of interaction, thus enforcing party structure. Its also one of diversity, it does this by influencing the players to try new combinations, even if there are better 'set' methods. It could be they saw an inbalance in the soloing structure with bst and nerfed it pourposly. To create less of a constrasting refrence between prefomance in that area, also to crack open more of the possiblities of their interaction. {/DA}

    There are ways of influencing your views in subdel ways to make you think you are choosing it. And to be honest, I never put any large company beyond the use of such methods, especially SquareEnix (And Disney). Working in the advertising field, I'm well aware of the exhistance of such methods, and have used a few myself.

    Anyways there is no simple answer as to 'why'. But quite litterally, they can afford to get away with the update as it is. Not that I like it or anything, but it will be enjoyable to see more BSTs in parties, as I have already begun to see.

    Art done by Fred Perry.

    Comment


    • Re: That's all folks

      Hyrist

      SE gives 3 squats about what we think- to an extent. Since we pay for good content and enjoyablility and so on, they do what the general consencious of players want, granted it's within their means.

      I'm going to try finding this years censu of Vana'diel. . . Simply because if you look at the numbers, BST are a VEEEERRY Small and isolated population. Everyone knows that SAMs get TP awsome and WARs hit hard and can voke and RDMs and BRDs have Refresh abilities, because most of the time you see these jobs.

      I've been playing FFXI for over a year now, and I'm lvl 73on RDM and have 4 jobs lvl37, point is, I've only had a BST in my pt once, and I didnt get a good impression of him. My Impression of BSTs is that they'll generally keep to themselves, but say, for instance, you just so happen to be exping somewhere that THEY are, they'll take this as a direct insult, as if they solely have a right to be there. That's when you get MPKs and so forth.

      I'm a RDM, so I look at everything from the back to get a good look at things, and I sympathize with BSTs who lose exp cause a PT comes to take the mobs they were fighting. And on the other hand, I am usually in that pt, so I can't feel too bad. I at least try to find a middle ground, or talk to the BST like the human being that they are. Some ppl aren't this compassionate.

      Generally, thet FFXI population doesnt care about what the update did to BST, they don't even understand how badly this affected you all. But both sides are at fault, and things are going to be hard for BST because of the stigmas and stereotypes placed on them.

      I saw a BST lfg last night and I didnt invite him cause I knew he was an asshole in general. Now, I remember pting with him as a THF when I was in low 60s, and he wasn't THAT bad. Or maybe it's cause I Was PT leader and he was grateful of the invite.

      Point is, in a game like this, reputation goes farther than how much you spend So, gl BST. I'll be there to PL if anyone wants friendly conversation ^^
      The Tao of Ren
      FFXIV LowRes Benchmark - 5011

      If we don't like something, collectively, if our hatred for it throbs like an abscess beneath every thread, does that mean that they're doing something right?
      Originally posted by Kaeko
      As hard as it may be, don't take this game or your characters too seriously. I promise you - the guys that really own your account don't.

      Comment


      • Re: That's all folks

        Originally posted by WishMaster3K
        things are going to be hard for BST because of the stigmas and stereotypes placed on them.
        GOOD WORK! Exactly What Every BST is Complaining about to SE. Also what i have been fighting with Onmi About in another thread as well.
        Bst in General are Kept to themselves Cos the Level on their own, The Comunity Doesn't Give a hoot about us as well. Meaning if this Update Just made Leveling harder for us as well, Making us go into Pting is hard cos every one else and thir dog thinks that Bst are assholes or useless in pt etc even the stigma of losing xp to the pet etc.... Bst don't get it bad We basically get shafted, something that SE doesn't SEE at all cos they think we are a "job" like every other but if they look at the BIG picture instead they will understand that WE have made this problem for ourselves as a whole, IT is not reversible in a short time like 1-2 months it TAKES years to build up this Repor But does SE care NOoooo they Push us to "PTing" Which will be hard cos like you said everyone else think we are assholes just by looking at our job but when we change jobs and seek WOW! we are totally Different!

        I personally Play 54 mnk my main how ever is 65 bst when i seek with Bst now i can seek for 3 days i won't get a pt invite most probably only Duo invites by other Bsts if i change to mnk however i get 6 in the same time stated.

        which shows it is not "Person Seeking" but the perception of the Job itself this can't be changed if SE doesn't already know.
        Evengelion
        Hades Server
        65 Bst/Whm
        54 Mnk/War

        Comment


        • Re: That's all folks

          SE can't change the perception of the job. Players create that perception, so it's up to players to change it.

          Comment


          • Re: That's all folks

            bst doesnt need a perception change. what SE needs to do for bst is make it EASIER for bst to solo, imo, not harder. especially before the level you used to get leave. those levels really sucked...


            ionia of Cait Sith! 75 RDM, 75 THF
            Plotting World Domination and doing silly emotes on a server probably not near you!
            I live to entertain!

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            • Re: That's all folks

              Originally posted by bikkebakke
              SE can't change the perception of the job. Players create that perception, so it's up to players to change it.
              CORRECT
              BUT how long has FFXI been around?
              So this perception has been Set in Stone.
              SO how does Players Change the perception of the job? takes time
              How long? Few years?
              So how does this affect Bst in General?
              I pose these Question to you

              Think of it as like Quiting Smoking Campaign
              Do u think of Smoking as A bad thing?
              It is issint it?
              but y so many people still smoke?
              Cos Idiots called it Cool right?
              did the government try to change this perception? YES
              Did it work? Not really.
              Same Thing

              What i mean is BST don't need a perception change if This Update is not here to stay,
              BUT if it is then We have to choice SE need to do something about this Perception that Bst have formed for themselves If SE doesn't then They are Actually Screwing us over
              Evengelion
              Hades Server
              65 Bst/Whm
              54 Mnk/War

              Comment


              • Re: That's all folks

                Unfortunatly SE cant claim responsbility for stupid people.

                In the end its not SE screwing you over because, in their view, they tried to fix an explot. Its the players screwing you over because they refuse to change. Its easy to blaim the big guy when it means avoiding blaming ourselves.

                I've never seen SE ever back out on a major decission in FFXI or in any of their other works, even if they know they were wrong in doing it (look at Final Fantasy: Spirits Within) So realistically what you probley will end up seeing is instead of making it easier for Bst to solo agian. SE will probley do somthing generic to assit EVERYONE soloing, and there goes BST's monopoly on the genera.

                There is also a difference between Smoking and Gaming. While they both are common in the aspect that they are mentally addicting. Smoking is also chemically adicting. This is why there are smokers to this day, even though the number HAS reduced sence the no smoking goverment campaign.

                The perception WAS set in stone untill SE just cracked the mold. All it takes is one more update in favor of BST's in parties and the mold will be broken. If you want proof, look at the invites for DRGs lately, better yet, think back to how many invites RDM got before refresh? And from the trend of SE's bisuness approach, its much easier to go foward in a new direction, than back out on somthing you've already done.

                I am sorry to burst your bubble, but the update is here to stay. The hard facts are just not in your favor here. SE's never backed down, BSTs hold a small percentage of the consumer populace, there are some BSTs still managing deicent exp soloing, and there has been a rise in BST's participation in parties.

                There is also the benifits of the update to conister. I have been leveled from Dooms to Kazham as my ranger and not once have I seen any of the massive death trains as I used to. MPKs still exhist but the stories of them right now are only being spread so loudly because everyone assumed that the update would be a perfect fix. MPKs on non linking mobs have ceased to exhist. (No more binding raptors around morion worm).

                Not to be mean, the nieve parts of me wants everyone to be happy. However the cold logic in me dosent see this update being reversed or altered in the BST's favor. It sees SE givng Jug pets better availablity and more power.

                Art done by Fred Perry.

                Comment


                • Re: That's all folks

                  What I dont understand, is that now after lvl 25 (or whenever call beast becomes available) Charm becomes virtually useless if BST becomes a major party player. The only way around it would be to limit campable places to those where there are plenty of xp'able mobs as well as many EM and DC mobs to charm. Its still useful in some BC's and such, but not near as useful in xp parties. I could still see them modifying this patch (say, making the mobs non-aggro until they walk back to their radius, as was brought up earlier), though I do doubt they'll do it. It took how many years of complaints about BST before they made any major changes to the job? And SE does give into what the players make the job into (to some extent). I recall reading an inteview where they said they hadn't intended NIN to be a tanking job, but the now accepted it as the way it was going to be played, and the latest patches were intended to more even the playing field b/w them and pld's more than trying to take away tanking abilities completely.

                  Way off topic, but the government will have stop smoking and campaigns and such. Really its just to save face and look responsible imo. They make waaaaaay too much money from tobacco sales. Its a cash cow for the government and I don't see anyway they would willingly do away with it anytime soon.
                  I RNG 75 I WAR 37 I NIN 38 I SAM 50 I Woodworking 92+2

                  PSN: Caspian

                  Comment


                  • Re: That's all folks

                    Stop talking about smoking, because SE doesn't have a huge lobby willing to pay them hush money so that they convieniently pass laws that prohibit something from being illegal while claiming to cut down on it.

                    The number of smokers has dwindles ever so slightly, and it's not that the government is cutting down on smokers, they're allowing both sides to be happy while not angering the tobacco industry, which is a big pocket stuffer of many corrupt politicians.

                    Smoking is legal, just not around non-smokers.

                    With that said, stop making an analogy between smokers and the general population of people trying to break the norm. I'll explain NINs this way- no one is mad that NINs are tanks.

                    There are instances where i'd rather have a PLD over a NIN and vice versa. Making NINs tank helped the community by adding variety to the game. Now with NINs and BRDs together, parties can fight things on a whole different lvl. While PLDs are ideal tanks (they were made from the ground up to be tanks, even at lvl 25, not counting cures, they take considerably less damage than any other job), they are flawed in that they are limited by gear and in some instances MP.

                    NINs are only limited by the tools they carry, and with a NIN tank, there is no need for MP gain on both the Mage side and the Tank side since NINs let parties conserve resources.

                    SE saw this as a positive to the entire gaming community, hence the influx in +Enmity gear that NINs have.

                    Hyrist mentioned this, in addition to also mentioning other changes such as the amount of gear available to SAMs and MNKs, indicating that SE may make minor changes that affect those jobs in a big way. He also pointed out the amount of gear available to RDMs in terms of us meleeing, and now that I am 73 and can actively use this gear, I am inclined to agree with him.

                    With all this said, SE has changed something that has worked, but have not implemented any major adjustments.

                    BST, once again, as Hyrist said, are shafted, and there is nothing you all can do except to adapt to it and look at it from a different angle. I saw a BST exping in Boyadha tree against Gobbues, and it seemed he was using Leave to lose hate and let the mobs despawn on purpose. Idk, I didnt talk to him cause I was focused on not dying to an EM Steelshell, but it's still possible to solo to an extent.

                    The sky is not falling, you've just been forced under the umbrella we've all been under for 2 years.
                    The Tao of Ren
                    FFXIV LowRes Benchmark - 5011

                    If we don't like something, collectively, if our hatred for it throbs like an abscess beneath every thread, does that mean that they're doing something right?
                    Originally posted by Kaeko
                    As hard as it may be, don't take this game or your characters too seriously. I promise you - the guys that really own your account don't.

                    Comment


                    • Re: That's all folks

                      One Bst soloing in tree against an elder makes the one Bst either crazy or extremely good and possibly crazy. Most of us won't try to duo them let alone solo one. Sure we can still exp in some camps fine when out pets spawn close, as in the tunnel going to the elders, but a good many other camps we have used to avoid the harrassment from parties shouting for us to move elsewhere are now shot to hell. As for Bst getting into a pt with other jobs that isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Most pt's will invite a Drg before they invite a Bst. And any Drg over 55 0r so can tell you what it's like trying to get an invite unless they form their own pt, maybe it's better now after the patch but don't know firs hand. I work with other jobs in a Bst duo or trio a lot of times and usually the non Bst comes away saying something like WOW! Bst is awesome. Those few people will be the ones inviting a Bst to their pt but those others that have never seen a Bst in action still will not invite a Bst unless every other DD is taken. For what it's worth I don't think most players now pulling for a regular pt can hold a candle to any Bst who have gone through 30-35 levels of solo or duo work. As I've said since I was a Drg and now as a Bst. Give us a chance to show what we can do. And remember it's the player behind the job and not the job itself that makes or breaks it.

                      Comment


                      • Re: That's all folks

                        1. jug pets are too weak for your normal parties. were talking about putting a D/C mob against mobs IT - IT++ their damage is going to be minimal, an in my honest opinion still very worthless. players can say what they want, but i seen what a C.C can do in a 4 man party. 1 out of 7 to 10 swings is not good.

                        2. exp is still there yet its not like ti once was. post the BST nerf i was getting 2k-4k an hour. since the update im averaging around 1k to just over 1.5k an hour. this is all due to lost pulls do to depop, my pets despawning, an the fact i have to roam large distances to find a new pet to charm. thus losing my chains. not to mention we seem to have lost alot of our bst duo or trio exping spots. as well as solo spots.

                        3. bst are as wanted in parties now then they were 2 yrs ago. its sad but when you think of the normal invite order bst are 9th on the invite chart. not to mention most parties will take another mage job first. an its already been tested that bst are not party friendly. seeing as alot of the bst i know seek for over 6 hours an get nothing. yet parties constantly pass them by to their exp camps.

                        4. i will blame the guy in charge before the guys who are not. it is S.E job as a company to maintain a certain lvl of order amonst its gaming community. to enforce a thing they put out called ToS, yet im sorry to say they have not. an nor will they ever. maybe if S.E took a stand, an banned players after they have mpked a second time. players would fear what would happen. it was really never players mpking other players. it was gil sellers mpking other players that brang this all on. when you loo at the history of the game. MPKING wasnt much of an issue til about a year ago, when gil farmers became higher up.

                        its only a matter of time that bsts start to take the fight to the players. i feel within the coming months bsts are going to start jugburn pts an just destroy numerous well exped zones. 5bsts an 5 C.C, with a rdm, smn, brd..

                        Nin75, Bst75. Drk61, War61, Rdm40, All other jobs are 37. All 3 starting city missions completed. All Zilart missions completed. All CoP missions completed. TouA completed.

                        Comment


                        • Re: That's all folks

                          I'm quoting a post I found on the Midgardsormr forums on Allahkazham, make your own judgments about the preformance of BST Jug pets in the wider picture.

                          do hate to jump servers, but I can't resist to spread BST awareness. Parses from Deco weapon parties.

                          PLD, THF, BST, WAR, RDM, WHM (last two removed from parse)

                          PLD/WAR
                          Total Fights: 62
                          Average Damage: 841.94
                          Average Percent: 14.42
                          Average Accuracy: 91.02

                          THF/NIN
                          Total Fights: 62
                          Average Damage: 1007.61
                          Average Percent: 17.29
                          Average Accuracy: 92.2

                          Wormwood (Me, BST/NIN)
                          Total Fights: 62
                          Average Damage: 1641.84
                          Average Percent: 28.34
                          Average Accuracy: 77.4

                          CourierCarrie
                          Total Fights: 61
                          Average Damage: 458.46
                          Average Percent: 7.87
                          Average Accuracy: 58.59

                          74 WAR/NIN
                          Total Fights: 62
                          Average Damage: 1700.03
                          Average Percent: 29.42
                          Average Accuracy: 89.16

                          Total damage % for BST+pet: 36.21%
                          Next highest damage from WAR/NIN (decent equip, but he was taru): 29.42%
                          -------------------------------

                          Next party. NIN, SAM/THF, BST/NIN, BLM, BRD, SMN (last two removed).

                          CourierCarrie
                          Total Fights: 42
                          Average Damage: 458.26
                          Average Percent: 8.64
                          Average Accuracy: 60.68

                          Wormwood (BST/NIN)
                          Total Fights: 43
                          Average Damage: 1443.51
                          Average Percent: 27.21
                          Average Accuracy: 85.48

                          NIN/WAR
                          Total Fights: 43
                          Average Damage: 985.95
                          Average Percent: 18.56
                          Average Accuracy: 86.54

                          SAM/THF
                          Total Fights: 40
                          Average Damage: 1325.68
                          Average Percent: 25.05
                          Average Accuracy: 89.86

                          BLM/WHM
                          Total Fights: 40
                          Average Damage: 777.48
                          Average Percent: 15.16
                          Average Accuracy: 7.5

                          Total damage % for BST+pet: 35.85%
                          Next highest damage from SAM/THF (Hagun, Haubergeon, JSE for WS): 25.05%
                          SAM dc'd for a few fights, so it would probably be closer to 32/28.
                          -------------------------------

                          Spreading BST party awareness, one post at a time.
                          Please do not underestimate the amount of damage you can do with your jug pet assisting you, remember you yourself are the equivliant of a Even Match fighting an Incredibly Tough. Deicent Chalange is only a single step below, and even then can do its part.


                          4. i will blame the guy in charge before the guys who are not. it is S.E job as a company to maintain a certain lvl of order amonst its gaming community. to enforce a thing they put out called ToS, yet im sorry to say they have not. an nor will they ever. maybe if S.E took a stand, an banned players after they have mpked a second time. players would fear what would happen. it was really never players mpking other players. it was gil sellers mpking other players that brang this all on. when you loo at the history of the game. MPKING wasnt much of an issue til about a year ago, when gil farmers became higher up.
                          I spoke with a GM on this very issue. Quite simply, the Game Masters themselves do not have the antority to Bann anyones account, rahter the are a median respresentiive between us and their supervisors. Addionally, there are only a set amount of Game Masters Period, and they are spred out accrost 35(?) severs. It makes it hard to just pick and choose who is making a serious violation of the ToS, rather than a person who is just making a 'mistake'.

                          You have to understand that enforcing this is not only a social matter, but it is also a legal one. A player, or bisuness, can legaly sue Square Enix if they were falsly acused of Violating the ToS. The real problem with regulating behavor on this game is two matters.

                          1, we are running a cross national platform here, so it makes it quite difficult to enforce cross cultural matters when there are more than one set of GMs that have the same lauguage diffculties we do. If this were to be better enforced, it would have been more convient had the indivudal countries had their own severs.

                          2, the GMs have had consiterable difficulty gathering evidence, with the limited tools they have. They cannot accept screenshots that are not regestered POL (And face it ,everyoen that does take screens uses fraps) And they can only read chat records, so if no one says anything when they are comitting the MPK, it makes it hard to regester substanial evidence. You may think it BS, but this was out of the GM's mouth. (God I wish I had fraps open when I made that GM call)


                          I'll also remind you that the 'guy in charge' diddent tell bsts to go out soloing. The 'guy in charge' diddent tell people to hate bsts in parties. That was the players' doing, not the 'guy in charge'.

                          Yes, we all knew when this game was new that SE screwed itself over on alot of ways they had done with this game. They are just becomming a public issue to people when it becomes an inconvience to them. Red Mages did the same thing before they got refres, cause they couldent get parties. Give them credit for giving a hoot enough to try to correct them, and for goodness sakes, give them time to make a decission on percicley WHAT to do with BST now that soloing is inconvient for them.
                          Last edited by Hyrist; 12-23-2005, 12:10 PM.

                          Art done by Fred Perry.

                          Comment


                          • Re: That's all folks

                            Ah forget it...

                            Tis not the season for /angry.

                            Merry X'mas all.
                            Last edited by Tomatoes; 12-23-2005, 12:45 PM.
                            Tomatoes & Tomatopotato @ Pandemonium
                            My Taru Blog / Wiki Page

                            Play golf? Check out my items.

                            Comment


                            • Re: That's all folks

                              " 74war/nin" on dec weapons who's lvl con between 75-80. yeah i say that puts the C.C at about the same lvls as the mobs they were fighting. my point is taking a C.C thats lvl is around 64, an putting it against a mob whos lvl range is between 74-77 is a whole nother story.

                              sorry to state this but you cant sue S.E for them terminating your account. you gave them that right when you aggreed to the terms an services. basically it syas S.E has that right. just like you cant sue them for ruining your life.

                              thats one mans claim that bst was never ment to solo. yet you look at everything a bst has. an its obvious what bst was ment to be. the gear specific to the job revolves around CHARM, why bother if it was ment for parties. JSE as well as AF2, are only a year old, if not less then a year. leave has a 10 second window were mobs will nto aggro you.

                              S.E said it never ment nin to tank. yet it didnt stop them from giving eminity gear choices for the job class. all the meanwhile nerfing up utes. but look at the upside to nin becoming a tank. it allowed more people in later lvls to reach 75, no longer did you have to wait hours on end for a pld to log on. no hours on end waiting for a whm to log on. plenty of times i lvled nin with smn as main healer, or a rdm. nin was never ment to tank, yet the community of players embraced it, an kept some members playing.

                              i see bst no different. what bst has done it open up a whole knew market to the casual gamer. those who cant spend 120 hours a week. yet are perfectly happy paying them to play 8 hours a week. it has releaved the stress of taking other jobs pt spots. my question to you is this. do you feel S.E should have taken this route?

                              Nin75, Bst75. Drk61, War61, Rdm40, All other jobs are 37. All 3 starting city missions completed. All Zilart missions completed. All CoP missions completed. TouA completed.

                              Comment


                              • Re: That's all folks

                                just a great little quote by Rodin over on KI:
                                Originally posted by Rodin
                                SE saying BST isn't supposed to be a solo job.

                                The Vana'diel Census
                                The Vana'diel Census: On the other hand, the higher percentage of beastmaster/white mage players shows a growing interest towards solo play.



                                Look at what SE said on the census. Ninjas weren't meant to blink tank, but eventually SE stated it as an enevitability, and learned to accept NINs tanking.

                                Bison Gear: Gives MP+ and Enmity - which is not very good for DD, even though this is some of the best solo gear for BST there is.
                                ok, carry on

                                Thanks Yyg!

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