Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

[Aether]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

I went 20bst/10nin while in parties until i hit 30bst, then i went 30bst/15war.

reason is from 20bst to 29bst you don't really get anything with war sub that can match the slight 4-5% increased attack rate (and later some uts ichi).

I haven't yet switched back to nin because you don't gain anything from nin again until 50bst/25nin (another attack rate increase) but at that time you also gain double attack from war sub which i find far superior.

[kiffkin]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

BST/RDM here. The only problem I have had so far is in the few levels in the 20s where WHM has Cure III but RDM doesn't. I switched to /WHM for that time then switched back as soon as I could. Since I got Regen, I've hardly used Cures.

I'm trying to level WHM just now. I'm also levelling NIN and BLU, because I want to keep my options open. I probably ought to level WAR too, and it's somewhere on the list o' things to do. The rare occassions I party have been for Prommies and I've gone /WAR for those, primarily to be a second voke for the NIN tank. I've seen /NIN done for Prommies too and it's worked just fine.

Anyway, as far as my experience goes:

RDM pros
- Fast cast. It's only slight, but it has made a difference between xp and mud before now;
- Access to certain non-WHM spells. Poison, Bio, Bind, Gravity and Sleep are all spells I regularly use (particularly Gravity and Sleep). The En-spells and Blaze Spikes have been handy every now and again, usually when fighting elementals I shouldn't have been poking ;
- Subbed A+ Enfeebling magic.


WHM pros
- Divine Seal;
- Access to some spells earlier than RDM;
- Access to -na line of spells, although I can't say I've ever really missed these;
- Auto Regen;
- Subbed A+ Healing magic.

In the end, it comes down to balancing play style with circumstantial requirements. Personally, I'm more of an enfeebler (i.e. mess up the mob as much as possible ) so /RDM suits me well. I can see times coming up where other subs will be more useful for certain things, so I'll switch over as I need to.

[Kitfox]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

[For soloing]

WHM sub:
-Divine Seal at WHM lvl15 (BST30)
-Curative spells
-Status removal spells
-Useful spells:
Blink WHM19 (BST38), Stoneskin WHM28 (BST56)
Sneak WHM20 (BST40) and Invisible WHM25 (BST50)
Reraise WHM33 (BST66)
Regen WHM21 (BST42)

I have used WHM sub since lvl30 and I think it's the most versatile sub for solo play. It offers great downtime reduction and good defensive spells (Blink&Stoneskin). Your STR won't be magnificent but you'll get a bit more CHR. Sneak and Invisible are a must in some camps and that is one of the things I like about WHM. With lvl50 JSE (Gaudy Harness, quested) you won't have almost any downtime.

RDM sub:
-Slightly better melee stats than WHM
-En-spells for extra damage from melee
-Nukes, debuffs and cures (more versatile spell collection)
-Fast Cast RDM15 (BST30) Fast Cast II RDM35 (BST70)
-Useful spells:
Blink RDM23 (BST46), Stoneskin RDM34 (BST68) and Phalanx RDM33 (BST66)
Dispel RDM32 (BST64)
Sneak RDM20 (BST40) and Invisible RDM25 (BST50)

Personally I haven't used RDM sub but I have a friend that's been using RDM sub and he's been doing well and is now over lvl45 already. At lower levels the debuffs will make a difference but I don't know how effective they will be when you get higher. I listed Dispel as useful spell but I don't know does it get resisted too often to be really an effective spell. RDM sub will work well if you don't like leveling WHM. You'll miss Divine Seal to give your Cures a kick but you can do fine without.

NIN sub:
-Dual Wield NIN10 (BST20) Dual Wield II NIN25 (BST50)
-Utsusemi: Ichi NIN12 (BST24) and Utsusemi: Ni NIN37 (BST74)
-Tonko: Ichi NIN9 (BST18) and Tonko: Ni NIN34 (BST68) (Invisible)

NIN makes also a good sub for soloing because of Utsusemi. You can go on a long time without getting hit at all. Dual Wield also adds some damage to your disposal and benefits from offhand axe. You can have Invisible
before WHM and RDM subs but you'll lack Sneak which is needed in some exp camps. NIN makes a good sub but isn't as effective as WHM or RDM in some cases. You'll miss Curative spells but you can go on for hours at best without getting hit for too much.

BST70+: At level 70 you will be able to equip Rune Axes which will give you 5HP/tick regen if you have MP. With Dual Wield Rune Axes + lvl50 JSE Gaudy Harness (and some MP gear) it is possible to get very high regen effect whenever you're engaged to a mob. This is very powerful combo from what I hear.

PLD sub:
-Better melee stats than WHM or RDM
-Defence Bonus PLD10 (BST20)
-Curative spells

This is mainly pre-30 but it works after it also. You get better VIT and Def than with mage subs. You will still be able to cure enough to cut your downtime. Don't be afraid of the low MP pool because, really, you don't need that much to be effective.
---

Kiffkin summed WHM and RDM subs nicely already but I thought I'd give my point of view. WHM and NIN are mostly used for solo play. Playing with NIN sub you can be a bit more aggressive since you have 3 shadows at your disposal. WHM makes a bit more versatile sub overall but both subs work well. RDM and PLD subs also work if you don't like leveling WHM.
--------------------------------------------------

[For partying]

WAR sub:
-Defence Bonus WAR10 (BST20) and Attack Bonus WAR30 (BST60)
-Bersek WAR15 (BST30) and War Cry WAR35 (BST70)
-Double Attack WAR25 (BST50)

Cookiecutter sub for DDing in parties. WAR is a good sub for increasing your damage output. Berserk and Double Attack are significant boosters to your damage and your STR won't be as gimped as you're used to with WHM sub. Still, you won't be good at taking damage so you might want to shy away from AOE spam mobs to avoid being a MP sponge.

NIN sub:
-Dual Wield NIN10 (BST20) Dual Wield II NIN25 (BST50)
-Utsusemi: Ichi NIN12 (BST24) and Utsusemi: Ni NIN37 (BST74)

Dual Wield will give you haste when wielding 2 weapons and therefore giving you better damage output. Also benefits from offhand axe and an extra hit for WSs is good for damage. Having shadows at your disposal also makes you
better at taking damage and protects you from some AOEs.
---

WAR and NIN are generally the best sub jobs for partying as they help with damage output and NIN especially at taking damage. I won't go in out-side-the-box subs such as RNG and DRG but I can say RNG adn DRG subs might offer more than WAR and NIN at lower levels. Might want to check it out what JAs and Traits they get.
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Ok... seems like I got a little carried away. But I felt like I needed to sum it all up a little. Basically, in solo, you can use anything that suits you and you like it. For parties sub jobs that help you deal damage are usually the best. You can also play a support role with WHM, RDM or BRD sub but it's very rare to be asked to do that.

I hope somebody finds my information useful and I don't get totally shot down for this because I'm new to forums here. I probably missed a few points about the subs so feel free to add your opinions.

Edit: added some clarity

[Fangorn]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Just to add to the RDM subjob info on this list (and as posted in a reply to a BST build question on the forum). At higher levels the enfeebling abilities of the RDM sub becomes far weaker. About the only ones that stick are Blind (good) and Dia II (MP expensive but fine if you're swapping pets and have time to heal). The en- spells are more or less worthless in MP terms as they're only adding 3-4 hp damage each blow - which on a mob with 5k+ HP is a bit pointless.

However - the Dispel spell is great and a life saver when fighting mobs which have a DEF+ TP move - i.e Crabs & Crawlers. It is very very rarely resisted, although does produce quite a bit of aggro so a Blink spell up and running is always a good idea.

The only real issue with the RDM sub (from my experience) is the relatively small MP pool you get - but most RDMs should be used to MP management imho. It does get far easier level 70+ where there is lots of MP boosting equipment at affordable prices (Ogre / Bison kit).

I will probably switch to /NIN at 74 - leveled it especially for this - as I want to see how fighting Goobue solo works out in the tree at that level. Only real downside to that is the lack of Sneak which could prove expensive. For most if not all areas in the ToA expansion I cannot see me ever going without my mage sub as Sneak & Invis are required constantly.

[Harrison]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Don't discount DRK as a party sub for BST. From DRK you get:

-Attack Bonus I at level 20 (with WAR sub you get it at 60)
-Last Resort at level 30 (Not as good as Berserk, but added with the attack bonus you wouldn't have with WAR I'd say it's pretty decent)
-Weapon Bash at level 40 (Free Stun)
-Attack Bonus II at level 60 (you'd just be getting ATK Bonus I at this time with WAR)
-Shadow of Death Scythe WS. Not sure how many BST use their Scythe, but I do like to have fun with it and having an additional WS is nice. Too bad we can't get Guillotine
-Nice boost to STR
-Souleater at level 60

I think the only thing WAR really has that would make me want it over DRK is Double Attack. I think BST/DRK is a great BST DD sub, especially at earlier levels. WAR doesn't truely shine til 50+ when you get Double Attack, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a BST/DRK outdamage a BST/WAR pre-50.

[samarium]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

I went out and tested the thing that seemed to make the most sense to me: BST/BLU.

Granted my BST is only 19, but then again I was interested in finding an alternate sub for low levels. /WHM doesn't really gain anything special until you start getting the more advanced heals, like Regen and Cure III; and we mustn't forget Sneak and Invis.

But this isn't until level 40 or so! What's a bst to do?

I figured, since the only thing I use whm for is Protect and Cure, blu would fit the bill perfectly because Cocoon is like Protect on freakin' steroids. And it is! Fighting T crawlers in Pashhow, during the finish, they were doing about the same amount of damage to me that I was doing to them.

The only caveat here is Poison Breath - crawler poison's almost invariably fatal if you don't have antidotes. But they're 3k a stack. On my server, that's pennies. I give Teleport-Meas out for more than that at times.

I figure I'll stick with /blu until /whm starts to show more merit - deodorize at whm15 (bst30), blink at 19(38), and sneak at 20(40). Until then I'll avoid things that can, say, paralyze me, and carry a few antidotes and echo screens if I have to.

Next on my list to test is how effective Blue Magic is when subbed - if we could pull off these huge 100-point Bludgeons during the finish, that would certainly streamline our jobs somewhat.

-sam

[Rai]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

I am a lvl 36 BST and my WHM is only lvl 20. I have been waiting on doing "Wings of Fury" BC and getting at least 1 astral before leveling WHM any further. I am now thing that a lvl 20 capped fight BST/BLU might be the way to go.

[Magnus V.]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Ive partied off and on.. from 20-44, for the most part parties prefer you to be /nin, Which till maybe 50 wont do you much good..

/Ninja use in Parties:

Lvl: 20/10 - Dual Wield - (Rumored at 5% Haste)
- Resist Bind - Limited Usefulness.

Lvl: 24/12 - Utsesumi Ichi - 3 Shadows, this I cant say would be very useful unless...

A: Your pulling (This is situational as some monsters are slow),
B: Your tank sucks,
C: You take hate alot (doubtful at these levels),
D: You are grabbing a link to buy time.

Lvl: 30/15 - Ichi Wheel - Probably Useless (Expensive anyway), 1/2 Skill + long casting time.
- Subtle Blow - Not sure on effectiveness as sub, potentially Useful.

Lvl: 50/25 - Dual Wield II - 15% Haste - Here is where this sub would start making its mark as a good sub. (5% Haste <on Weapons alone> isnt a good enough reason to sub.)

Lvl: 60/30 - Resist Bind II **See Resist Bind I**

Lvl: 74/37 - Utsesumi: Ni - Ok Ni, now I admit a lovely spell but in party same issue. (See Utsesumi: Ichi)



/Warrior Use in Parties:

Warrior: As with /nin you would Dual wield here you can use Shield/Axe for stat/attribute boosts, or scythe.

Lvl: 10/5 - Provoke - Useful if you are tank (Dunes, everything happens) or need to pull hate.

Lvl: 20/10 - Defence Bonus - Useful for above reasons.

Lvl: 30/15 - Berserk - 25% of Defence added to Attack - Useful for Damage and obviously beats Dual Wield I for Damage Dealing.

Lvl: 50/25 - Double Attack - 10% Double Attack chance, A great Damage trait and great TP builder. all in all perfect for parties.
- Defender - Useful for when you take hate with all your new toys, or when you need to provoke.

Lvl: 60/30 - Attack Bonus - +10 Attack, free trait but in a comparison its hard to judge, but indeed helps make /war vs /nin an easier choice.

Lvl: 70/35 - War Cry - Another Damage Deal/Hate tool.

So id say if your invited as Damage Dealer go with /Warrior*.

* - I dont mean to offend /nin lovers, just my opinion, that /nin is highly over used at the wrong levels for wrong reasons.

P.S: I did not get into other subs, they are mostly situational /Sam (great for tp) /Thf (Nice for Support/Damage Dealer)

After all its always ----<<To Each his own!>>----

Edit:
I have been partying since this post and untill 50 went /nin, after 50 went /war and my DOT went way up... parsed just under a Ranger in my group and way over a Dragoon + Wyvern, with my pet I left the group as the highest damage dealer in the group

- ((53 on Robber Crabs Kuftal Tunnels))

-Magnus of Lakshmi-

[toole]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

So I havn't seen it, even talked about so I assume its bad for some reason, but I'm new and wondering how well a /rng would do ? Maybe with accuracy focused gear, sending a pet out to tank while ya blast him.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

So I havn't seen it, even talked about so I assume its bad for some reason, but I'm new and wondering how well a /rng would do ? Maybe with accuracy focused gear, sending a pet out to tank while ya blast him.

BST has no natural skill with any ranged attack skill. This basically means that as a BST/RNG your archery, marksmanship, and throwing skill will all be equal to what you would have as a RNG half your level. In other words, you might see some success with it very early on, but will start to notice the severe lack of ranged accuracy pretty quickly.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

So I havn't seen it, even talked about so I assume its bad for some reason, but I'm new and wondering how well a /rng would do ? Maybe with accuracy focused gear, sending a pet out to tank while ya blast him.

lol didn't believe me the first time?

[toole]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Hehe they suggested to ask around here..still trying to grasp the /2nd job concept fully

:D

Thanks again, everyone.