Bard solo/duo

[Icemage]

Re: Bard solo/duo

He asked what at his particular level worked well for solo exp in between getting groups. Unless I completely misread his question.

Correct, however, his exact question was this:

Is there any good duo teams that a bard/? and another job can pull off? At any level above 30?

My original response covered the 30+ part of the question, noting his current level (33) and the reasons why duo at that level is ineffective at best (which it is). You can certainly DO it, but if you're going to do it and get more than 1 kill every 15 minutes with a BRD/x + y/z combination, you need a really strong solo partner, since (as I said) Bards have jack-all for boosting power at level 33. Their melee is lackluster, their songs are still in their infancy at that level, and they can't do dedicated healing even with /WHM.

Even as a solo or duo at 75, Bard isn't really the best choice even with all gear available and maximum power songs. Unless you've got a Gjallarhorn kicking in your back pocket, RDM is simply a stronger, more survivable contender in a solo/duo situation at any level above 41 (case in point; I have much better gear for my Bard job than my Red Mage job, both at 75, but I hardly ever use BRD for duo purposes - always Red Mage or White Mage).

The reason why is what I stated above - Bards gain their power from the number of people they can affect. They are absolutely awful solo - yes, they can put things to sleep and charm them etc. to stay alive, but their damage output is by far the lowest of all jobs solo. Things aren't much better in a duo situation (slightly better, but not tons). Bards really need a full party (or something close to it) to be at the top of their game.


Icemage

[Murphie]

Re: Bard solo/duo

That's nice, Icemage. But have you tried duoing as a level 30ish BRD? Because it's not quite as terrible as you're making it out to be. Seriously.

I have personal experience duoing at that level range (and lower) with a RDM/BLM and he and I did pretty damn well for ourselves. There weren't any 15 minute kills.

I'm all for putting someone on the right path with regard to partying as X job, but I never think it's a good idea to stifle creativity with regards to solo and duo efforts. Just explain that it's not going to be as good as a party (because it's not) and let them experiment. Declarations that this doesn't work, or that combo isn't effective isn't going to do that at all.

You're a really smart poster, but sometimes you are just ridiculously off the mark.

[Icemage]

Re: Bard solo/duo

Let me re-iterate that I did not say that you can't duo on Bard at that level. There is simply no earthly reason to if you're just after XP.

I stand by my statement that solo and duo bards are ineffective at most levels. I've done a lot of duoing on Bard at various levels from 10-75. It's an observable fact that prior to 56, Bards are not the greatest contributors when not in a full party. Yes, you can get by - killing monsters for XP is not the most challenging task in the world. But are you pulling your weight at level 33? I certainly don't think so, and experience bears this out.


Icemage

[Murphie]

Re: Bard solo/duo

If you aren't in an exp party and would rather not stare at the wall, it's an alternative, so there certain IS an earthly reason. Again, it's not going to be the best exp ever. But if you were going for maximum solo/duo exp, you wouldn't be playing BRD in the first place. The point is, you can go out and get pretty good exp at that level range if you want to, and as for "pulling your weight" well, that's just laughable, because who the hell cares how much weight you're pulling when you're alone or with one other person?

In your initial post in this thread you essentially implied that everything I had posted was incorrect. Which it isn't. That's where the problem lies.

[Thott]

Re: Bard solo/duo

Manteel is not everything for bard... I wish I sold mine when I was planning on it though.. manteel comes in handy in everything but exp, I use my osode for pulling because I take ALOT less damage and I get all the stats from it aswell, I had my manteel crafted from my second sumbligar... one infront of me failed... then the damn ruby for it cost me 4m.. witha ll that crap in the 2005 winter it cost me a total of 21m to get my manteel... the price for manteel right then was 75m and osode was 125m... osode and manteel dropped and manteel hit 30m and osode 40m.. I sold all my gear and my manteel and bought a osode, It helps ALOT but I wish I kept my manteel because it does come in more handy other then only being able to use on one of my jobs...
really quick thing now is osode is about 10m and manteel is still 30m... while osode being alot more common manteel is not and is worth more... I wish I kept my manteel or sold when the 2005 winter was at it's high but it is not needed... while I have osode I still keep other cheap gear on me because both are not needed... all this was a sad story for me but I am just trying to say the price of the gear is not really what makes the player, the skill of the player makes the gear... while i exp alot more on my bard then any of my other jobs that are finished for merits I seem to think any other bard is beter then me when I am in exp... maybe because when ever I am another job that can sleep a mob I try to help the bard pull or sleep... now I am just rambleing lol ok out!
~Thott

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Bard solo/duo

If you're looking for ideal duo partners at your level, Neruto, I think the best pairings are as follows:

DRG/WHM, /RDM or /BLU - your ballads will go far here, as a soloist, DRG is by far the most MP efficient of them all. They don't have a lot of MP, but then, they don't need much. The wyvern will handle status cures (with the exception of Cursna and Stona and Erase) when the DRG does a WS. The wyvern can also heal you or the DRG if you hit 1/3 hp. DRG does this by casting fast, low cost spells such as Dia, Poison and Power Attack and the wyvern recognizes that as a command to heal. I'd lean /WHM as BRD for this one, as in any tense situation, the wyvern will prioritize its master for healing first if you hit the same low HP.

RDM/NIN or BLU/NIN - lots of options for survivability on both jobs. MP consumption is a bit more heavy, but with the right items like the juices or yagudo drinks (which stack with ballad) its easy to overcome. Plus at 40 RDM gets Convert, making that easier. /NIN could work pretty well here for BRD.

BST/WHM or /NIN - COR is honestly a stronger partner for BST, as they have all the pet buffs BRD doesn't, but BRD does have ballad to support a /WHM sub. They can also use CHR etude to help BST manage charms more easily. Madrigal can also be a big help on the melee side. You'll have to learn the nuances of pet hate, however, strike the mob or cure yourself or the BST too early and it can mess up pet tanking. /WHM here, BST solo/duo can get really crazy at times. Lullaby can be a big aid on mischarms and pet uncharming during a fight, too.

NIN/WAR - March and Elegy, enough said. Hate control can be a problem here though, as NIN probably has the slowest time catching up to other melees on the damage end. It would be a bit better on T mobs though, so its not too big of a concern. You'd have to balance your cures, songs and damage out here, being careful not to rip hate off the NIN too much. Elegy, for example, has quite a hate spike. NINs love elegy, though, be sure to apply it to the mob as often as you can without spamming it. /WHM for BRD here, obviously in case NIN gets in a jam.

[Mini Neruto]

Re: Bard solo/duo

If you're looking for ideal duo partners at your level, Neruto, I think the best pairings are as follows:

DRG/WHM, /RDM or /BLU - your ballads will go far here, as a soloist, DRG is by far the most MP efficient of them all. They don't have a lot of MP, but then, they don't need much. The wyvern will handle status cures (with the exception of Cursna and Stona and Erase) when the DRG does a WS. The wyvern can also heal you or the DRG if you hit 1/3 hp. DRG does this by casting fast, low cost spells such as Dia, Poison and Power Attack and the wyvern recognizes that as a command to heal. I'd lean /WHM as BRD for this one, as in any tense situation, the wyvern will prioritize its master for healing first if you hit the same low HP.

RDM/NIN or BLU/NIN - lots of options for survivability on both jobs. MP consumption is a bit more heavy, but with the right items like the juices or yagudo drinks (which stack with ballad) its easy to overcome. Plus at 40 RDM gets Convert, making that easier. /NIN could work pretty well here for BRD.

BST/WHM or /NIN - COR is honestly a stronger partner for BST, as they have all the pet buffs BRD doesn't, but BRD does have ballad to support a /WHM sub. They can also use CHR etude to help BST manage charms more easily. Madrigal can also be a big help on the melee side. You'll have to learn the nuances of pet hate, however, strike the mob or cure yourself or the BST too early and it can mess up pet tanking. /WHM here, BST solo/duo can get really crazy at times. Lullaby can be a big aid on mischarms and pet uncharming during a fight, too.

NIN/WAR - March and Elegy, enough said. Hate control can be a problem here though, as NIN probably has the slowest time catching up to other melees on the damage end. It would be a bit better on T mobs though, so its not too big of a concern. You'd have to balance your cures, songs and damage out here, being careful not to rip hate off the NIN too much. Elegy, for example, has quite a hate spike. NINs love elegy, though, be sure to apply it to the mob as often as you can without spamming it. /WHM for BRD here, obviously in case NIN gets in a jam.

Thank You!!! Thats what I wanted right there omgwtfbbqkitten. Thanks so much

[Icemage]

Re: Bard solo/duo

If you aren't in an exp party and would rather not stare at the wall, it's an alternative, so there certain IS an earthly reason. Again, it's not going to be the best exp ever. But if you were going for maximum solo/duo exp, you wouldn't be playing BRD in the first place. The point is, you can go out and get pretty good exp at that level range if you want to, and as for "pulling your weight" well, that's just laughable, because who the hell cares how much weight you're pulling when you're alone or with one other person?

Even if you don't care, the other person might. If you're actually after XP yourself, you'd care too. The difference between party XP and duo XP at 30+ is pretty large, more so when one of the two is a Bard.

Leaving aside the possibility that you're just hanging out with a friend and killing some time while gaining a bit of XP, the intent of the question is as a replacement for those times when you can't get an invite. The obvious corollary to this being that if you're in a duo party, you generally won't be getting invites from other parties that are forming - so again if you are after XP, this hurts you. Given the generally good invite rate that Bards get, coupled with the generally good quality of the parties that those invites represent, this is not a small risk.

In your initial post in this thread you essentially implied that everything I had posted was incorrect. Which it isn't. That's where the problem lies.

I challenged your assertion that NIN was a good duo partner at level 33. I stand by my statement that it is not. NIN doesn't even tank well solo until 37. Until NIN get Utsusemi: Ni, they have a terrible time trying to take down anything above Even Match. After level 37, then yes, NIN is a very good duo partner. Until then, they're the ones who aren't pulling their weight.


Icemage

[SharMarali]

Re: Bard solo/duo

I have a weird friend who, after reaching 75 on BRD, gets all of his BRD exp exclusively through soloing.

Yeah, I said he was weird.

I asked him why he doesn't join merit PTs on BRD, and he told me it's because he has more fun doing manaburn merit PTs on his BLM. He just solos on BRD to keep his exp capped whenever he dies.

So then I asked him how the hell he does it. BRD isn't exactly known for being able to kill things. All he's told me is that he uses BRD/THF and does lullabye right before sneak attack. To me though, that's one hit every minute and it's got to be taking him a long time to kill anything, especially since he's not using /NIN to blink off attacks or /WHM to cure himself after a fight.

Anyway... Yeah, this was pretty irrelevant to the post.

Carry on.

[Heimdal00]

Re: Bard solo/duo

Lvl 33 bard, right? Bards are invincible soloers at that lvl. Even with hobo gear on, you're unstopable... although each fight may take far longer than any other job. I'm positive you could even take an IT solo... it would just be dangerous and probably take the whole day. Trick is to lullaby the mob whenever you get low in HP, and use paeon and ballad to regenerate. Just make sure you don't have any gradual damage effects on the mob, that will be your downfall. Duo with bard can be equally as effective, but usually isn't because the other players often don't know to disengage or not cast dia/poison. That's only a problem when your duo is fighting something too tough, but everyone who duos runs into those situations... so that'll be what kills you. Take advantage of your soloing capabilities now, because post lvl 40 your lullabies won't stick like they do. EP and DC will always be within your solo ability though.

I was once in a japanese exp party around that same lvl. 2 goblins wiped our whole party except me and the whm. I kept them both asleep for over 30 mins while the others raised and recovered from sickness. Then... we beat them. I had total control over 2 IT++ mobs at once left to my own devices. It wasn't really solo (if I drew my sword that woulda been the last thing I did =P), but you can translate that to it.

[Murphie]

Re: Bard solo/duo

Even if you don't care, the other person might. If you're actually after XP yourself, you'd care too. The difference between party XP and duo XP at 30+ is pretty large, more so when one of the two is a Bard.

No one is refuting this. Certainly not me. In every single one of my posts I've clearly said "You will not get as much exp as you would in a party." I have also said that in my personal experience, BRD was not nearly as huge a drag on EXP as you claim that it is. If I can do it, anyone can.

Leaving aside the possibility that you're just hanging out with a friend and killing some time while gaining a bit of XP, the intent of the question is as a replacement for those times when you can't get an invite. The obvious corollary to this being that if you're in a duo party, you generally won't be getting invites from other parties that are forming - so again if you are after XP, this hurts you. Given the generally good invite rate that Bards get, coupled with the generally good quality of the parties that those invites represent, this is not a small risk.

We're talking about, at maximum a few scant levels. We all know that he will get party invites again, and soon the mid-30s will be but a distant memory. Sometimes folks don't have enough time to join a party, and sometimes they don't want to deal with a party (or there simply isn't one available then). Knowing that they aren't completely bereft of options in those situations is a good thing. I am all for getting maximum exp/hour as often as possible, but that's not always an option.

I challenged your assertion that NIN was a good duo partner at level 33. I stand by my statement that it is not. NIN doesn't even tank well solo until 37. Until NIN get Utsusemi: Ni, they have a terrible time trying to take down anything above Even Match. After level 37, then yes, NIN is a very good duo partner. Until then, they're the ones who aren't pulling their weight.


Icemage

You continue to make absolutely no sense, and also be wrong at the same time. What is this about NIN tanking at that level? 1.) It's entirely possible to tank, because obviously many many people have tanked at that level, and 2.) In a DUO it tanking isn't as big an issue, but even if it were, you're duoing with a BRD, so you're going to have no trouble keeping hate anyway.

You are wrong. And your narrow-minded opinions on what the various jobs can and cannot do aren't helping anything in this thread. Maybe you need to actually get out there and try again, because you clearly don't have nearly as good an idea of how those levels work as you think you do.

[Icemage]

Re: Bard solo/duo

You continue to make absolutely no sense, and also be wrong at the same time. What is this about NIN tanking at that level? 1.) It's entirely possible to tank, because obviously many many people have tanked at that level, and 2.) In a DUO it tanking isn't as big an issue, but even if it were, you're duoing with a BRD, so you're going to have no trouble keeping hate anyway.

I said nothing about hate - I said Ninjas can't tank Tough+ enemies full-time before 37 and it's generally true. In a duo of NIN/WAR + BRD/WHM or anything similar, you're not going to be able to keep a NIN alive against Tough+ enemies with the MP from a /WHM subjob, especially not when your only source of MP recovery is Ballad I, and your only other source of recovery is Paeon.

Sure, it's not likely that a Ninja is going to lose hate to a Bard at that level, but he's going to take a lot of damage once his shadows go away, and a NIN/x + BRD/y simply doesn't have the recovery ability for an extended battle against Tough or better opponents at level 33+. Unless you'd care to assert that a Ninja can simply rely on Evasion and Utsusemi : Ichi to avoid damage at that level against XP-worthy Tough+ enemies?

Now, if we're talking about Decent Challenge or lower enemies where Evasion can kick in much more often, then that's a totally different story, but now we're really talking about lower amounts of XP which again begs the question of why you're doing it at all.

You are wrong. And your narrow-minded opinions on what the various jobs can and cannot do aren't helping anything in this thread. Maybe you need to actually get out there and try again, because you clearly don't have nearly as good an idea of how those levels work as you think you do.

If you'd like to provide reasoning for why you feel Ninjas can magically duo-tank Tough+ enemies successfully when they can't do so in a party situation unassisted before Utsusemi: Ni, then by all means do so. Simply saying that my views are wrong when I've laid out my logic in light of my personal experience with Ninjas at various levels (particularly with respect to my Bard job) seems rather obstinate to me.


Icemage

[Murphie]

Re: Bard solo/duo

You'd certainly know from obstinate.

I've never had that much trouble tanking T-ish mobs. What kind of duo goes after VT or IT mobs anyway? Except, you know, stupid ones. A duo of NIN and BRD targeting EM-T mobs shouldn't have any problems getting reasonably good exp during that level range. Provided they don't target mobs that hit too hard or die really slowly, I don't really see the problem that you so clearly do.

[Icemage]

Re: Bard solo/duo

You'd certainly know from obstinate.
I've never had that much trouble tanking T-ish mobs. What kind of duo goes after VT or IT mobs anyway? Except, you know, stupid ones. A duo of NIN and BRD targeting EM-T mobs shouldn't have any problems getting reasonably good exp during that level range. Provided they don't target mobs that hit too hard or die really slowly, I don't really see the problem that you so clearly do.

Maybe you consider EM/T to be worthwhile with a (mostly non-combatant) Bard in the party, but I certainly don't think so.

A duo earns 60% of the XP of a solo player per kill. Consider that a Bard is going to be spending a significant amount of time singing songs and not swinging a weapon, and that a pre-37 Ninja is going to be spending a chunk of time not swinging a weapon (Utsusemi: Ichi is a 4 second cast, and let's not forget the cast times on Hojo and Kurayami), you're looking at a duo which combined probably does about as much damage as a single solo dedicated DD.

That's not a very fast kill rate - it's not even an average kill rate. You can manage if you pick your enemies correctly, but you're taking a huge "pay cut" for either job in that level range.

Frankly, if you have a NIN and a BRD at that level you have enough pieces of the puzzle to put together a full party and really get some mileage out of your time.

If we're talking about something like BRD/WHM + DRG/BLU in that level range, then I agree you can make reasonable XP in a duo at level 33. But NIN + BRD is lacking in offensive and recovery power, and underperforms compared to stronger solo/offensive combinations, especially when viewed in the light of the invite rate of both jobs.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Bard solo/duo

What kind of duo goes after VT or IT mobs anyway? Except, you know, stupid ones.

BST duo can do VTs just fine, hell, I solo VTs now if I want. Just a matter of subbing NIN and knowing what mob is more resistant to charm than the others, in addtion to which mob is more effective than another and why skills they have. Charming a T is risky, but not impossible. DRG/Mage, BLU and RDM can also solo/duo just fine on VTmobs. Hell I just saw a BLU solo and imp in Mire.