Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

[arkaine23]

Just wondering about burn party songs. I know most sushi-eating melee want 2x Minuet, even though Minuet + March is probably better. But I was thinking about the times you get a party built and can discuss song/gear options with the melees. What if you could get them to eat meat? (Sadly a lot of melee players seem to be idiots who want sushi-onry and as much acc gear as they can get and will not change their hitting-like-a-little-girl ways for anything.)

Most stuff you burn is probably weak IT or more likely VT so acc is less of an issue, especially dealing with people who have weapon merits. I'd think the double acc song would make up for lack of sushi, and eating meat that say caps at 120-150 attack, is bettter than 2x Minuet's attack boost. Meat > Minuetx2.

Or even better, have a rdm/brd sing the weaker acc song and the main bard do Madrigal + March.

So- Melee stick with acc and str gear for the most part, eat high attack capping-meat. Bard sings 2x madrigal. Or maybe Madrigal + March.

Or if you are lucky enough to have a RDM/BRD that knows what they're doing- Melee stick with acc and str gear for the most part, eat high attack capping-meat. Bard sings Madrigal + March. RDM/BRD sings 2nd Madrigal and also second Ballad to make your life easier and pulls faster.



Just some thoughts from a RDM/BRD, because I often burn with LS monks and bards... My Madrigal adds +11 acc. My Minuet adds +15 atk with song belt on, and melee's can get +3 more acc if they have a minuet earring. I can keep up Ballad I for me and the WHM no problem and last to my convert even losing some mp from subbing brd, and main BRDs love me for it. My songs are really weak compared to a main bard, but they help.

As a side note- Don't yah just the Sanction that gives auto-refresh when mp is low? I love subbing bard and getting 5mp/tick on my own in the new areas without any uber-impossible to get HNMLS-onry or Dynamis drop-rate-1/10000-with-6-ppl-lotting-it gear. And when I'm burning with a bard mian, that's 7mp/tick. :D

[Vizjerai]

Re: Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

Sushi > 2x Madrigal at level 75 since sushi gives +% to acc and Madrigal is a specific amount.

Most of the time melees invest a lot of on +Acc gear they don't really have as much gear for +STR and +Attack. Also depending on your server meat foods can be even more expensive than the sushi that they normally bring with them.

Melees don't always party with bards so they'll always have their +Acc gear with them and most likely don't have replacement gear for STR, Attack and meat food. In the end it'll just be easier for them to use their normal gear with sushi and the bard help them out with Madrigal for more acc if they still miss too much, Minuet to up their attacks or March for faster attacks.

In the end all the melee have to agree to the same songs and if one person lacks +Attack, STR gear and meat food your better off going with the usual songs or find a replacement.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

This is from a melee's point of view.

Just wondering about burn party songs. I know most sushi-eating melee want 2x Minuet, even though Minuet + March is probably better. But I was thinking about the times you get a party built and can discuss song/gear options with the melees. What if you could get them to eat meat? (Sadly a lot of melee players seem to be idiots who want sushi-onry and as much acc gear as they can get and will not change their hitting-like-a-little-girl ways for anything.)

Most stuff you burn is probably weak IT or more likely VT so acc is less of an issue, especially dealing with people who have weapon merits. I'd think the double acc song would make up for lack of sushi, and eating meat that say caps at 120-150 attack, is bettter than 2x Minuet's attack boost. Meat > Minuetx2.

There is just a lil thing about this, the highest capping Atk foods are only +90 Atk Bison Steak and Hedgehog Pie and you need a base of 500 Atk to achieve this in the first place.

Basically an attack and accuracy build with Sushi and double Minuet will almost always outparse the double madrigal and acc + meat build.

Or even better, have a rdm/brd sing the weaker acc song and the main bard do Madrigal + March.

So- Melee stick with acc and str gear for the most part, eat high attack capping-meat. Bard sings 2x madrigal. Or maybe Madrigal + March.

Or if you are lucky enough to have a RDM/BRD that knows what they're doing- Melee stick with acc and str gear for the most part, eat high attack capping-meat. Bard sings Madrigal + March. RDM/BRD sings 2nd Madrigal and also second Ballad to make your life easier and pulls faster.

Accuracy is nothing with attack really, and on VT mobs even less, the Atk we get from a double Minuet increase out damage output so much more then the acc songs will ever do.

Basically we melees need around 30-35 acc from gear + sushi for a decent hitrate (approx ~60-70 acc overall), if you're singing Madrigal + March I actually have to wear more acc gear and remove atk gear and hit for a lot less.

Madrigalx2 I can wear around the same gear as I do with a sushi setup for a decent hitrate, but since Minuetx2 gives more Atk then Atk food I actually deal less damage.

The optimal of course would be a few merits down the road and be able to use Atk food + Minuet + March with some minor gear tinkering, but sadly after level 60 Madrigal is not that needed since sushi were introduced.

Just some thoughts from a RDM/BRD, because I often burn with LS monks and bards... My Madrigal adds +11 acc. My Minuet adds +15 atk with song belt on, and melee's can get +3 more acc if they have a minuet earring. I can keep up Ballad I for me and the WHM no problem and last to my convert even losing some mp from subbing brd, and main BRDs love me for it. My songs are really weak compared to a main bard, but they help.

As a side note- Don't yah just the Sanction that gives auto-refresh when mp is low? I love subbing bard and getting 5mp/tick on my own in the new areas without any uber-impossible to get HNMLS-onry or Dynamis drop-rate-1/10000-with-6-ppl-lotting-it gear. And when I'm burning with a bard mian, that's 7mp/tick. :D

[arkaine23]

Re: Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

Hmm, I thought you could get 70-80% hit rateon VT's pretty easily eating meat with enough acc gear (like say +30-50 or so from gear and factoring in merits, and that you get capped around 90% acc regardless). Also, that sushi adds a % acc, and that say 17% (sole) acc turns out to be around +36-41 actual acc for someone fully capped A+ weapon, depending on their merits. And it gives additionally +4-8 acc from a typical melee's acc+ gear, for a total between +40-50 acc. I was under the impression a bard main's Madrigals are +15 acc and +25 acc. I just looked up hedgehog pie and saw its +90 atk cap.

So maybe I'm way off or a little off, but:

Sushi acc for 75 should be around +40-50 depending on gear. Double Madrigals should be around +40. That's not that different.

Attack songs from a bard come out around +110 right? And meat's best offerring is around +90 (though you might not be able to cap this depnding on your base attack), in addition to +5 acc and +6 str.

How much haste is the Bard's best March? I figured it was 8% for the weak one and 12% for the second one.

BC ordinarily melee are providing their own acc and the bard is giving them a large attack boost. Haste is left out, even though it could provide a significant advantage in kill speed. I'm trying to devise a way to give melee's all 3 (acc, haste, attack) without sacrificing on any one too much.

Which is better?

Scenario 1- 2x Minuet (+110ish attack) & sushi (+40-50 acc), regular haste from spell (12%, plus any haste+ gear). Add a rdm/brd to provide either +11 acc, +15 attack, or 3% haste. Best case- +40-53 acc, +125 attack, +12% haste, or +40-53 acc +110 attack, +15% haste.

Scenario 2- Madrigal & March & meat. +25 acc from song and +5 from food if using hedgehog pie, +70-90 attack from food (you'll hit that cap during berserk for sure), and 24% haste from song and spell, plus any haste+ gear). Add a rdm/brd to give again either +11 acc, +15 attack, or 3% haste. Best case- +36-41 acc, +70-90 attack, +24% haste, or if acc is not a problem, +25-33 acc, +85-105 attack, +24% haste.

Also note an additional +3 acc can be gained in either scenario through use of a minuet earring as long as a minuet song is active, and is included in my best case figures.

I can't argue with what melee's typically gear for (acc) and what food they have on hand (acc). For conevenience and in pickup situations, 2xMinuet's simplicity and effectiveness is undeniable. But would it be so hard to purchase some meat if you're already toting around the +acc gear, and have time to discuss food/songs before setting out? In fact on some enemies and in certain camps, kill speed may be too fast to find more mobs before the chain gets lost. But how about tougher enemies, like say trolls/mamools? I've always fought trolls in a camp-party for chain 5's. But I bet with enough bard and /brd boostage a roving fist/axe burn party could clean up. I'll try to get my group together and test it out with parsed data. Hopefully we can find an open camp and really cut loose.

[tordall]

Re: Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

The other half of it that 'bard only' people don't see is that people like to (and should) macro in different gear for weaponskills than their TP build setups.

A typical 'good melee' will wear a mix of +acc and +haste gear for building TP (with some minor +atk) and then macro in gear that has +stat (stat depends on the weaponskill) and +atk (with minor +acc) for weaponskills. They are relying on the sushi to allow them to load up on as much +haste gear as possible during the TP build phase and then the minuet's +atk to help them out in the weaponskill phase.

My personal favorite is to adjust based on what the melees are using and what they are fighting. If you're fighting something relatively non-evasive then minuet + march (gets them more TP faster, still helps atk), minuet x2 (if somehow something is non-evasive but high def, like a crab), or minuet + madrigal or even march + madrigal (thief type mobs, high evasion low def). In some of the new zones, where you have 'tough' mobs, VT-IT 'normal' mobs and pld-type and thf-type mobs, you're sometimes changing the melee songs each pull in order to keep the party optimized.

[iDrizzle]

Re: Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

I'm no melee, highest dd is lvl 53 (drg), and I'm not an endgame brd (12 lol) but just from knowing what one of my good friends does, I can tell you a good DD has all the options available.

He is a 75 drg, so already he has been fighting an uphill battle. But, he has something nuts like +64 str for WS, and always has meat and sushi for parties, depending on the senario. I'm pretty sure what he does is keep his acc/atk gear on (o hat, snipers, assault jerkin, baron legs and feet, etc) then he hits his macro for ws (wyvern mask, flame rings, hectacomb harness, hectacomb feet and gloves, etc). I can guarantee you he'll outdmg most dds, but definately there are some he won't.

Not trying to praise my drg friend, but I"m just trying to say that just like a brd should be able to play any song depending on the party setup, a dd should have different gear depending on the party setup, and definately different gear for WS.

[Brodrik]

Re: Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

Better to fight T to low VT, use meat (Couerl sub) and get double Minuet, Minuet/Madrigal, or Minuet/March. On mobs of that level, a respectable lv 75 Acc/Atk set of gear should get you 80-85% accuracy.

[Rones]

Re: Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

[QUOTE]Sushi acc for 75 should be around +40-50 depending on gear. Double Madrigals should be around +40. That's not that different.[QUOTE]
Combined they are +48 with +2 instrument.

Sword Mad is +15 (+19 with +2).
Blade Mad is +25 (+29 with +2).
Combined that's +48.

[Valyana]

Re: Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

Sword Mad is +15 (+19 with +2).
Blade Mad is +25 (+29 with +2).
Combined that's +48.

I just tested this myself. I also get +19 for Sword Madrigal, but I get +31-+32 for Blade; I needed +22 wind/singing skill to get the last point out of it.

[Omni]

Re: Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

im sorry, but where do you check accuracy? O.o....
or how do you determine that number from testing.....

[Tirrock]

Re: Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

I can't think of a good way of explaining it...but it involves wearing +acc gear and checking monsters that have high evasion/normal evasion.

[Omni]

Re: Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

i understand that part but once it reads low evasion say... after +10acc... how do you know the difference btwn +10acc and say +15acc and etc?

[Dryhus]

Re: Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

You add and remove Accuracy gear in smaller increments.
Here's an example:

You check a mob, and it's high evasion, high defense.
You slowly add Accuracy gear...
Once you equip Accuracy +20, it checks high defense.
You slowly add Accuracy gear...
Once you equip Accuracy +40, it checks low evasion, high defense.

BRD sings Blade Madrigal on you.
Mob still checks low evasion, high defense.
You slowly remove Accuracy gear...
Once you have Accuracy +8, it checks high defense.

That's where you start doing some math. The highest Acc you had with the mob checking neutral evasion is +39...so 39-8 = 31.

That's the approach you take.

[Tirrock]

Re: Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

Find the exact point in gear where a monster's evasion goes from either high evasion to nothing, or nothing to low evasion. Let's say...+23 acc in gear gets you from high evasion to normal evasion on a Wootzshell. (I love that crab name.) Cast madrigal and start removing acc gear until the monster goes from normal evasion to high evasion. Then add accuracy gear, one at a time, until it goes back to normal evasion on check.

So let's say that at sword madrigal + 4acc, it checks exactly the same as +23 acc and no songs. And if you lose 1 acc on either, it goes up to high evasion. 4+X = 23, X=19.

Edit: I was beat to the punch. D:

[Omni]

Re: Burn Party Songs, Does 2x madrigal = Sushi?

ahh i get it now. thanks :D