BRD melee

[Icemage]

Re: BRD melee

Things don't really change much from level 43. BRD melee in XP parties sucks, period. Especially nowadays once you hit the 60+ range with TP-burn and manaburn parties, there's literally no time to draw your weapon, you're too busy singing and/or casting.


Icemage

[Duelist0851]

Re: BRD melee

lol.... where to start.. Hmm.. Why are you waiting til the end of the fight to sing ballad..? I mean they -do- need refresh like... the whole fight... every fight... Why isn't elegy the first thing you're casting? Like before the melee even strike the mob... So many things are wrong with you meleeing at that lvl.. and taru melee at that... (Run Away!)

[Heimdal00]

Re: BRD melee

Practically every bard I've talked to who says bard melee is decent, has tried it themselves. Practically every other bard who's said bard should never melee, has never tried it. Is this coincedence?

Stap on your melee gear, maybe sub war or nin, and have at it! It irritates me to see everyone think bard is just another version of white mage. It would seem silly to ask a pld to sub whm and concentrate on healing, yet they would be much more suited to it than bard.

I was brd/whm for the first 50 lvls, so I know exactly how it's done. Now I go brd/nin, in jaridah gear, and dive into battle after my songs. I'm no DD, but I still do dmg relative to the pld... which is nothing to shake a stick at. The dmg I do easily makes up for the mob tp I generate, and if need be I can zurka-voke and whiff away up to 6, 3+3 with utsusemi recast, of the mobs attacks (more when I get Ni).

The notion that bard melee slows things down is pure assumption. I haven't noticed a difference, and I've been experimenting with bard versitility with that particularly in mind. I have the experience to back up my claim.

Bard is jack of all trades, masters of none. A bard can probably fill any role with the right setup and knowhow. It's important to note that subjob is very key. A brd/whm who is meleeing will probably be spreading their stats too thin to be much good at the melee.

[Deeman]

Re: BRD melee

the only time you'll catch me meleeing in an xp pt (as a brd) is when I get 300 TP from pulling and getting hit. And even then I dont even notice i have TP until a pt member tells me. I just unload a Full Swing and keep pulling =P

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: BRD melee

BRD melee, in regards to soloing, is a laughable waste of time of you've another job that can do it better.

Let's say you're fighting Dune Widow, just about every level 60 player can take this one down. If I go at it as DRG or RNG, its a pretty short confrontation. If I go RDM, not so much, but still pretty fast.

If I got BRD, even loaded to the hilt in melee, evasion gear and dual wielding swords, its gonna take about five minutes.

So its not so much that BRD can't solo, iits just they just can't solo efficently.

As for BRD in EXP - if you have time to draw your sword after after you get Ballad and Ballad II, especially, you're not doing enough to support your PTs.

[Heimdal00]

Re: BRD melee

BRD melee, in regards to soloing, is a laughable waste of time of you've another job that can do it better.
Let's say you're fighting Dune Widow, just about every level 60 player can take this one down. If I go at it as DRG or RNG, its a pretty short confrontation. If I go RDM, not so much, but still pretty fast.
If I got BRD, even loaded to the hilt in melee, evasion gear and dual wielding swords, its gonna take about five minutes.
So its not so much that BRD can't solo, iits just they just can't solo efficently.
As for BRD in EXP - if you have time to draw your sword after after you get Ballad and Ballad II, especially, you're not doing enough to support your PTs.

That's somewhat of a half-truth. BRD doesn't have anything for massive dmg output, so yeah.. it's an inefficient soloer in terms of speed. There is something to be said about the lack of downtime afterward BRD's have, but that's not always a problem with other jobs too.

What BRD really has in solo is some serious survivability. Throw 3+ EP's at almost any solo high-lvl job at once, they probably won't live unless they run. A good bard could beat them all and hardly break a sweat.

BRD is also the only job I've ever been able to still solo Toughs at between lvl 30-40. (Without help or item. ..but it took a darn long time >_o)

[Yeargdribble]

Re: BRD melee

Even as a massively non-conformist BRD, I will admit that BRD melee sucks a lot. Even songs can't really compensate. For PTs it's actually decent at low levels, but above 40 I can't see there being much time or need for it.

Solo, we may take a while to solo, but we are at the very top in terms of survivability. I don't know how many times I've gotten an NM like Centurio X-I while there were adds around. I can easily sleep the adds while fighting and solo him without any support. It's unlikely that even the best soloers could pull that off solo.
Like Heim said, throw 3+ mobs (even EP) at a great soloer like THF or NIN and then will crumble. They are spectacular with 1 or even 2 mobs, but a THF will eventually have trouble keeping up with shadows, DDing and sleep bolting multiple adds.

If you have other solo job options and you know adds won't be an issue, then by all means use that job. But you really can't beat BRD/NIN for when the shit hits the fan. Just expect a long fight, because even with the best gear your damage will be crap at best.

Also, the difference between the damage between a BRD/NIN and any other sub is substantial. If you are BRD/WHM then your best combo would be Joy+Genbu's Shield. However, if you're BRD/NIN you'd use almost any good dagger (Martial/Blau/HS) and off-hand the Joy. Evisceration isn't great, but it blows any Sword WSs out of the water. I'm also not a fan of sleep soloing things unless it becomes a necessity. If I need to sleep it constantly, it's probably not worth killing at all.

[Jonastb]

Re: BRD melee

As a First Gen bard, I meleed til 65, after that mobs died faster than I could get a chance to melee. And for the record, as a Taru bard in AF, I was outdamaging the Mithra Paladin, easily. I would switch between dagger and sword, depending which I had was better. I never missed a song, and was actually faster with dispel and -ga spells than the rdm.

That was long before the bard pulling craze, which even now I only like in KRT.

As was said earlier, the people who say bards can't melee, are the ones who haven't done it regularly.

Bards can melee, and it also makes it easier to throw extra cures, and dispell as you are looking at the mob.

[Lilani]

Re: BRD melee

As a RDM, I once melee'd in a party, post 41. I was trying to get circle blade, so I managed to take my sword skill from 141 to 150 in that party. I kept haste, enblizzard, ice spikes, and phalanx on myself. I used a Wize Wizard's Analace and a Darksteel Buckler.

I'll admit, I was totally and completely useless as a melee. The only person who benefited from it was myself. However, I asked the party first, and they didn't mind. If things got rough, I stopped meleeing for that battle and took care of things. I never let the meleeing take away from what I was doing, and if it did then I quit.

I use the same logic if a mage or anyone else who doesn't usually melee wants to do it. If they want to skill up, go for a latent effect, or whatever then I don't mind, AS LONG AS they do their job without falter. Now, if a bard is trying to melee and there are 5 minute gaps between mage's ballads and people are dying left and right while they aren't curing anyone, then I'll tell them they need to stop meleeing and get in gear. But, if they aren't causing any problems then just let them melee. I don't think it matters if they help, as long as they don't hurt. If they aren't changing anything about the effectiveness of the party, what's the problem?

Better to have a happy support mage than an angry one, for they have the ability to let you BURN.

EDIT: And in regards to TP, I'll simply say that every party *should* be ready for a mob to use one of it's TP abilities. If they aren't ready for it, then it's a very fragile and unstable party in the first place. I've *never* seen a meleeing mage wipe a party just because the mob was able to use it's abilities more often. I've seen the party get wiped from the mage not doing their job while meleeing, but never from them giving the mob TP without causing much damage in the process.

[tdh]

Re: BRD melee

I don't so much have an issue with mages meleeing, however if you have time to melee you most likely have time to do something else that would better benefit the group.

The player base fine tuned the EXP party to the point that people expect at least 10k EXP/hour. If you have time to melee you have time to pull, or have time to /heal, or possibly sing another song that somebody would benefit.

And in regards to TP, I'll simply say that every party *should* be ready for a mob to use one of it's TP abilities. If they aren't ready for it, then it's a very fragile and unstable party in the first place. I've *never* seen a meleeing mage wipe a party just because the mob was able to use it's abilities more often. I've seen the party get wiped from the mage not doing their job while meleeing, but never from them giving the mob TP without causing much damage in the process.

I can't say I've ever seen a party wipe because a RDM or BRD decided they wanted to swing a stick, however I have seen Cyclones cause problems, and fights extended due to the extra TP. More Goblin Rushs, or Sickle Slash that the PLD has to take on the chin equals more MP required from mages to bandage them.

The player base's Acc is so high now, the people who are supposed to be meleeing are providing plenty of TP to the mob with out the aide of a mage. If the party has no problem with you meleeing then fine. I would just rather they found something else to do with that time. As a RDM, the only reason I bring a Sword with during EXP is because it has MP on it for Convert.

[UnnamedGalka]

Re: BRD melee

Practically every bard I've talked to who says bard melee is decent, has tried it themselves. Practically every other bard who's said bard should never melee, has never tried it. Is this coincedence?

Oh, I've tried it many times, and I can confidently say that we suck at melee.

A "battle bard" does nothing but give the mob TP.

[Stromgarde]

Re: BRD melee

PLD75, BRD75, MNK75. If I wanted to solo stuff, I'd do it on another job, if I were to melee in a party, even with the proper gear I'd be a leech. I mean... there is stuff out there like the Bard's Justacorps, but it's simply not worth the opportunity cost, time wise.

[Icemage]

Re: BRD melee

WHM75 RDM75 BRD75 here.

If I'm solo, I'd rather use WHM or RDM any day of the week than BRD. I'll survive stuff better and kill things faster. Theoretically, I could take down slightly more difficult enemies on BRD than WHM, but it would take longer than it's worth - and at that point I could use RDM instead.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: BRD melee

Solo, we may take a while to solo, but we are at the very top in terms of survivability. I don't know how many times I've gotten an NM like Centurio X-I while there were adds around. I can easily sleep the adds while fighting and solo him without any support. It's unlikely that even the best soloers could pull that off solo.
Like Heim said, throw 3+ mobs (even EP) at a great soloer like THF or NIN and then will crumble. They are spectacular with 1 or even 2 mobs, but a THF will eventually have trouble keeping up with shadows, DDing and sleep bolting multiple adds.

RDM and BLU would have something to say about this. Its not really even a contest, they win. As for THF - wow, you're really lowballing THFs.

Back in the day I camped Minstrel's Coat with a THF friend. Novv took me out too fast after I claimed, leaving him to solo the fight. He had the evasion, shehei and supply of bloody and sleep bolts to pull it off. He managed every link, to boot. I heavily doubt any BRD/anything could pull that off, especially with dispelling mobs in play.

[Yeargdribble]

Re: BRD melee

A BLU or RDM could probably pull of the Centurio situation. However, a NIN couldn't handle 3 links. A good THF might be able to, but how about more?

Was once in Davoi when my wife's WHM wasn't yet 75. She aggro'd some orcs and didn't notice it because she was used to running around there on a 75 job. So soon we have 7 orcs on us. I'm sorry, but I seriously doubt that a THF could handle that. I understand that EP mobs rarely hit hit a pimp THF and Bloody Bolts might work wonders, but once you have a certain number of mobs, there will be enough hits getting through that you couldn't keep up with damage taken, damage dealt, and shadows.

Also, RDM and BLU have to worry about getting their castings interupted. Once you have enough mobs on you it will be impossible to get off your sleeps if your Stoneskin or at least Aquaveil aren't already up. A BRD can sleep, and continue to sleep a very large group of mobs almost indefinitely.

However, I believe the point is moot, because yes, there are far better options for soloing. I only melee/tank in duo situations when it's just easier than getting a group for something (avatars, missions, AF etc). In most of these situations a RDM could solo much better without need for WHM backup.