Buff/Debuff order and party arrangements?

[PyramidHead]

This coming up lvl 25, I'll be meeting up with my static. Besides the fact that as of right now, I'm having a hard time making sure the mages/melees don't move too close to each other, I'm still quite new and not really sure which song should be played first or last.

What I have been doing so far is at the beginning, I cast Minne on the mages (I don't really have anything else for them at the moment...) and then Madrigal/Minuet as the puller is coming back so he can get the benefits as well.

Then from there I continue to debuff and backup heal when necessary. And at the end of the battle I cast Paeon. Is there anything I should be changing or should be doing as of right now?

One final question. From what I hear, it's absolutely necessary for the tank (PLD) to have Ballad and Minne at the same time. How would I go about my party's positions and songs to cast Ballad/Ballad II on the mages, Ballad/Minne on the tank, and all the while making sure the melees have Madrigal/Minuet on?

[Vilurum]

Don't sweat minne on a tank. It's a negligible difference, the song+ instrument for minne is a harp (so if you want the extra boost you're gonna have hell for positioning), and the party would be better served by having you spend those ~10 seconds backup healing rather than ever so slightly increasing your tank's defense.

PLDs should get Ballad + Madrigal if you can organize the positioning for it, Madrigal + Minuet (with Ballad between battles) if you can't. Since you speak of a static, you should be comfortable with organizing stuff like positioning since you'll be working together as the same group a lot.

By the same reasoning, you'll eventually be able to convince the mages and melees to stand far enough apart for you to buff them separately, but close enough for you to paeon them all with a harp if needed. Minne on mages should ideally be nothing more than positioning practice for you, because hopefully they're not getting hit to begin with.

Your most important debuff for everyday use is Elegy. You don't get that for quite a few levels yet. Next most important is the appropriate Threnody. These not only help with nuke resistance and skillchain effect damage, but also with debuff resistance. If you have time at the beginning of battles, you can use Ice Threnody before Paralyze, then Earth Threnody before Slow, then Wind Threnody before Gravity, etc. I generally fired off Ice Threnody at the beginning, and then threnody-of-skillchain-MB before the skillchain landed.

Lullaby, of course, in a situation that calls for it, is super important. But otherwise it rarely gets used. You don't have Finale yet - this song sometimes never gets used and is sometimes frequently used. Suffice it to say, if an enemy buffs itself, find a few seconds between your own songs to fire off Finale. Don't bother if the buff amounts to utsusemi, blink, or stoneskin, as melees will eat through those real fast anyway.

My suggestion for positioning and song order at 25:

Melees ... Enemy ... PLD ... ... ... Mages

(It does not have to be in a line like that. You can have the mages off to the side if you prefer. Point is that you should be able to find a spot where you can hit the PLD and the mages but not the melees, with Ballad. If you can convince your melees and your PLD to stand as far back from the enemy as possible while still hitting it - which won't hurt them any - that will make positioning a lot easier, since you have more margin for error when it comes to landing songs on specific people.)

Song order:

During pull, ballad on mages/PLD. If time, start using etudes on mages. (If you never have time for etudes, it honestly won't make as huge a difference as everyone acts like it will. Slight difference yes, huge difference no. Ballad, madrigal, minuet, and threnody are all more effective.)

Continue refreshing ballad until you get the word that the puller has an enemy. At this point, go over to the melee-PLD area (far enough to avoid hitting mages).

This will need some practice with range and timing, but figure out how soon, upon the puller's appearing on screen, you should start madrigal, so that it lands just as the puller runs into the AOE range. That way, by the time all the melees are there and the battle's just starting, you have now got ballad on the PLD and mages, madrigal on the melees, and all you need is minuet (and maybe etudes).

Fire off threnodies to help land early battle debuffs, while melees are fussing with positioning. (Your job to tell them where to stand so they know, but after that it's their fault if they screw it up.) When you get elegy, use that before you start with threnodies.

Once melees are in position, go to a place where you can hit the melees (and *not* the PLD), and use minuet. At this point the skillchain is probably approaching, and the initial debuffs are over, so use the threnody for the skillchain effect and MB.

Return to spot where you can ballad the mages and PLD, and refresh ballad. Not only will this refresh the ballad timer on the others, but it will get ballad on you, so you can now help backup heal better since you're regenerating MP too.

Use etudes on mages if you have time. Don't, if you don't. Use requiem if you have put up etudes and there's still nothing to do. However, you'll probably have need to use other threnodies or backup heal or status heal or something.

If battle takes an extremely long time, start refreshing songs in order - madrigal on melee/PLD, minuet on melee, ballad on PLD/mages.

Again this is a matter of getting the timing down, but when the enemy is near dead, start playing paeon so that it lands pretty much right as the enemy dies. (The point is to get it on the puller, who will be running off promptly when the enemy dies.)

Spot-cure people after battle as needed, then repeat from the top, and of course maintain ballad on mages/PLD between battle. (Unless you have an afk or d/c or something.)

How this will change at higher levels:
- You'll get Horde Lullaby at 27. For most circumstances this is more of a backup sleep in case Foe Lullaby is resisted, but if you want to sleep an enemy with blink/utsusemi up, or if you want to sleep a group of enemies, Horde is a better choice. Like all AOEs, be careful that you don't accidentally get *more* enemies pissed at you by using it.
- You'll get Prelude at 31. If you have a RNG, they want to end up with Prelude + Minuet. It's targetable, so it's simply a matter of song ordering.
- You'll get Finale at 33. Use it asap when an enemy buffs itself. Your other songs can wait a few seconds for you to use Finale.
- You'll get Elegy at 39. Use it as early as possible in the battle (i.e. right after initial madrigal), and reuse it asap if it wears off. It's extremely effective.
- RDMs will get Refresh at 41. At this point, assuming you have a RDM, discuss with your PLD and your whole party, whether they want to have Ballad + Madrigal still (for 4 MP/tick + accuracy) or Madrigal + Minuet (for 3 MP/tick + accuracy + attack). Different PLDs have different preferences.
- Sometime in the high 40's or the 50's, your party members will get so much HP, and paeon will be so little HP restored, that it's not worth the time to use it. You'll be switching to cure (1/2/3) or curaga (1/2) to help heal after battle, spells (plus time resting if needed) will be more time-efficient than paeons.
- You'll get Blade Madrigal at 51. At this point, stacking madrigals for extra accuracy (at the loss of attack from minuet) becomes an option. Which in some cases you will need to use. If your melees are whiffing a lot with just Blade Madrigal, throw in Sword Madrigal as well instead of Minuet III/IV.
- You'll get Ballad II at 55. Mages no longer get etudes (if they did before). Some may still want them, but most of them would far rather have more MP to work with, than slightly more nuke damage or slightly better debuff success rate. If you do use etudes, make sure mages end up with Ballad II + etude, not Ballad I + etude.
- Other aspect of Ballad II is the PLD. Now it's not only a question of Madrigal + Minuet vs. Madrigal + Ballad (II, now), but now there's also the possibility of Ballad I + Ballad II on the PLD. Time for another discussion of what they want.
- At every other level, you'll get a new level for your subjob, and you'll (usually) get a new spell/ability from it too. Some of these have significant effect (Divine Seal, Curaga, Sneak, Invis, Stoneskin), and some you could care less about (Barblindra etc.).

Basically the big changes to your play style are the things I listed above. Beyond that it's more a matter of improving equipment and getting new levels of songs to replace the old ones. Carnage Elegy, for example, is a nice step up from Battlefield Elegy in effectiveness but it won't change your play style at all (you can't stack elegies). Same for upgrading minuets. Rare are the occasions where you will stack minuets (although keep in mind that is a possibility), so more commonly you'll just replace the old minuet with the new one. And so on.

[Jaggywaggy]

Vilurum that was an extermely helpful post, thank you. I play a brd, currently 23 so far. It's nothing serious, just for static once a week with my LS for fun, trying jobs not related to our mains. This information will come in handy when I progress.

[Schozie]

awesome, gave me a few ideas too, and i'm 57brd, heh.

Hadn't thought about trying to miss the pld with minuet. (rather than hitting him with ballad afterwards) I may try this sometime.

Talking about landing madrigal when the puller gets in, be aware of thfs who like to SATA at seeminlgy random times before/during/after the pull. I understand they like to get it off quickly so their timer is up, but its very frustrating when they do it *just* before they get into range.

Also, if playing with a drk, I often toss out a dark threnody right as theyre starting their absorb spells (which most seem to do in one clump at the begining of the fight)

As far as party positioning goes, I've found it doesnt get any better later on. I usually dont say anything first fight, just to see how it goes, theres never enough space between them so after the first fight i try and set up positions. This works fine for a while, but you'll almost always fine them moving either closer back together, or even further appart. (which I find to be equally frustrating, I dont wanna take more than a few seconds to run into position) Whms I find are usually really good, the only real problems i get as far as the mages go are usually taru blms, they seem to like standing right behind the melee while casting their spells. I usually try and "snipe" them with ballad for a while, and if it gets any worse just start deliberately missing them, they will move back in the end.
Also you gotta watch out for thfs (if there isnt a big gap) because they like to run roudn the back just as i'm casting ballad on the mages, and if its tight i'll end up hitting them as well.

Better stop my rambling now, or I wont ever stop.

[Vilurum]

Two options to deal with THFs who use SA/TA during pull (never mind that this often means they get hit when they stop to do this):

1. Train them to use it after getting back to camp, by letting them experience fights without madrigal because they stopped and thus missed it. If they want madrigal so much they can get back to camp in time to get it.

2. Delay the initial madrigal enough so that it'll land about 3 seconds after you expect the puller to be back in range, which should give them enough time to use SA/TA and still get into range.

(I personally have a vast preference for RNG pullers. No SA/TA-during-pull nuisances.)

As for people moving out of position as time goes on, just go right on playing songs to land on people where they're *supposed* to be. If anyone starts complaining, inform them of their own error and tell them that if they stop paying attention, that's the consequence. It's not your job to micromanage positioning because they can't be bothered to stand in a reliable predictable spot again.

The only additional nuisance to this setup is SA/TA if it happens during ballads. This is honestly just a matter of timing coinciding ... songs last for 2 minutes each, and SA/TA have a 1 minute timer, so as long as you and your THF (or /THF) talk a bit to work out relative timing, you should be able to avoid landing ballad on them when they go behind the PLD.

Now if they're a lazy punk and they just wanna hang out behind the PLD to avoid having to move, they can bloody well regenerate MP quite uselessly, as a reward for their laziness. If they happen to get ballad because of unhappy timing coincidence, well ... not the end of the world, and hopefully won't happen that way the next battle. But in the first case, kick them into order and make them go stand with the other melees when they're not actively doing SA/TA.

And "with the other melees" means directly across from the PLD, not just sort of off to the side. For some reason, 90% of the THFs I've partied with *love* to do that (though I have yet to see any point in doing so), and it's hell on positioning because it gives you less margin of error to work with. So make them go all the way over to the other side, it's not like it takes very long at all to swing around 180 degrees to the other side of an enemy you're locked onto.

[UnnamedGalka]

Now if they're a lazy punk and they just wanna hang out behind the PLD to avoid having to move, they can bloody well regenerate MP quite uselessly, as a reward for their laziness.

Amen to that, Vilurum.