CHR or SKILL?

[Lythe]

I'm 63 with 196 Wind and Singing Skill and something like 88 string Skill.

I tried debuffing a crab in teriggan using Carnage Elegy when I was lvl 59 using a Harp... of course that didn't work. I had +40 Chr btw. But of course it landed with my Wind instrument.

So the 100+ skill difference caused the resist on the wind instrument.

So... Skill has effects on debuffs and buffs... Chr only has effects on debuffs

IMO, I think 1 Skill = 2 CHR in terms of debuffing

So the only way to maximize the debuffing/buffing is to alternate equipments (between CHR and Skill), and calculate what is needed for either of the situations.

Example... Wind Torque Vs. opo-opo crown
14 Chr vs. 14 Chr in terms of debuffing
7 Skill vs 0 Skill in terms of buffing
(If the theory is correct, Wind Torque wins)

[Lushipur]

resume old topic ^^


so? i just buyed a wind torque and i dunno if to use always this (macro change with string torque) o still use the star necklace...

with the early changes of the etude i have like +30chr always on and in my static i dont need +mp gear (in fact i dont have a single piece of mp gear)...

so i doubt +3chr over like +60chr really make the difference

[Faranim]

Let me re-iterate what Teffie has already said:

Level 1-74 = Skill
Level 75 = CHR

If you're not level 75, by all means use +Skill Gear. It will help your parties EXP faster.

Once you get to 75 and don't need to EXP anymore, ditch the skill for +CHR and +MP.

[Lushipur]

yes, i read that, dunno if someone have discovered the rule behind chr and skill in this six months

another question:

is chr effective on buff songs? i mean, is usefull to put a large amount of chr equip when i sing minuet or madrigal? on head i have not +skill equip, should i use ribbon or crown? or can i use something different like mp gear?

i know that switching mp gear isnt really usefull but better than put some useless chr, or not? and i can always debuff, switch mp gear, sing to melee,run to mage, ballad and restore some mp before i have to repeat

(well i really don't have so much time cause my static is really quick and i have no time to rest between song )




ps: sorry but my engRish is really awfull (i'm pizza mandolini inside )

[Laehn]

CHR affects one thing and one thing only for a brd. Debuff resists. More chr will make your debuff songs resists fully or partially less often.

What CHR does:
Decrease chance of partial resists on debuffs.
Decrease chance of full resists on debuffs.

What CHR doesnt do:
CHR doesnt affect buffs in any way.
CHR doesnt affect song potency in any way.
CHR doesnt augment song duration.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
What Skill does:
Decrease chance of partial resists on debuffs.
Decrease chance of full resists on debuffs.
Augment ALL song potency.

What Skill doesnt do:
Augment song duration.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
What Instruments do:
Augment specific song potency.
Augment specific song duration.

What Instruments dont do:
(?)Decrease chance of partial resists on debuffs.
(?)Decrease chance of full resists on debuffs.

Side note: Song duration is a set amount of time. A partial resist means the song wears off on a monster sooner than that set amount of time. The only way of increasing song duration past the set amount of time is with instruments. Some people also think instruments augment song accuracy too, but i havent seen any conclusive results proving or disproving it, but its very possible that it does.

For exp parties, between 30-40 extra chr is all you need. Fill up the rest with skill and mp however you see fit.

[Vilurum]

From my own experiences, I am 99%+ certain that *one* of the following two statements is true, and I lean heavily in favor of the former (considering that it is quite believable, and the latter really isn't):

1. Song-specific debuff instruments help resist rate on that debuff.
2. Wind instruments are better for debuff resists than string instruments.

Test case: many many levels of string skillups, across the better portion of my levelling career by playing Requiem with a string instrument rather than Siren/Hamelin Flute in exp parties. Success rate was observably and consistently worse with the string instrument, and jumped visibly as soon as I capped string and switched back to the right instrument.

So this either means that the wind instruments were just plain better for Requiem than the string instruments ... or that the Requiem instrument was just plain better for Requiem than the non-Requiem instruments. Honestly, which makes more sense?

I observed the same when I got wind/string skillups through my alternative method (solo - sleep, threnody spam with wind or string as needed, sleep, repeat). Landed the threnodies visibly more often with wind (when I was not only using wind, but more to the point using Piccolo +1 since there was no reason not to do so) than with string.

I should also point out that at level 72 I got so much +CHR that my resist rate was incredibly low even with an inappropriate string instrument. So it's not like you can't have a good success rate with the wrong instrument, but you get that success rate with a lot less +CHR with the right instrument.

Otherwise ... just for kicks, here are some statistics for you:
Wind base: 225
String base: 225
Singing base: 225
(All capped for 75, no merits.)
Wind+: 13 (Wind Torque, Minstrel's Coat, Choral Cannions)
String+: 13 (String Torque, Minstrel's Coat, Taillefer's Dagger)
Singing+: 10 (Demon Helm, Choral Cuffs)

Difference between base and full skill+ (singing +10, wind or string appropriately +13) on the following numerically observable buffs:
Minuet IV: +2
Minne IV: +1
Carol: 0
Low level etude: 0
High level etude: 0
Minuet I-III: 0
Minne I-III: 0
Paeon I-IV: 0
Ballad I-II: 0

Note that through the use of merits and AF2, it's possible to get even more skill+. However ... at least as far as buffs go, it'd presumably have a minimal effect. (And to be fair, it's not like our buffs really gain points of effectiveness all *that* fast as we get skill as we level.)

[Lushipur]

sorry but my limited english is really an obstacle...

just another question

let me put simple...

over 65, on neck equip is better torque or star necklace?

someone have done some test?

up to now i think i will swap neck equip for debuff (chr) and buff(skill based song)

really sad tha a +13skill is just a +2 bonus on song ;_; and not even all kind of song ;_;


however, thanks for all ^_^

[Vilurum]

It is +2 on Minuet and +1 on Minne and +0 on the others yes ...

*AT LEVEL 75*.

Remember how your Minuet I stopped getting better by the time you got Minuet II? And how your Minuet II stopped getting better by the time you get Minuet III? And so on?

Songs' effectiveness "cap". If you have already hit that cap, then skill+ will do nothing for you, and at level 75, you've already hit the cap for many of your songs.

However, 65-74 is a very large time range, and you haven't hit caps on your songs yet. (At level 65, you've only just gotten Minuet IV two levels ago.) Skill+ will thus have a much more noticeable difference.

And skill+ also helps land debuffs - who's to say whether 7 wind/string skill, or 3 CHR, in the neck slot, actually works better for that?

My point is that I agree with Teffie and Faranim:
1-55: no skill+ equip to use anyway.
56-74: skill+.
75: CHR+.

[Laehn]

I like the star necklace because it serves a dual purpose for chr and mp. I never bought a wind torque. I never felt i had a big resist problem. But im sure its a good piece of equipment.

[fate_of_fantasy]

Basically we've reiterated what everyone has been saying for months:
EXP & Merit
Skill>Chr>Mp

HNM & Dynamis
Chr>MP>Skill

Personally the best bards will have enough equipment to run both roles. I know that i want a set of exp gear and a set of HNM gear. Also someone earlier said opo opo vs. wind torque... Don't know if you realize this but they are in different equip spots.

I too want to know exactly how they affect our battle abilities because they have released info like this for things like vit/def and str/atk etc.

[Lushipur]

Originally posted by fate_of_fantasy
Basically we've reiterated what everyone has been saying for months:
EXP & Merit
Skill>Chr>Mp

HNM & Dynamis
Chr>MP>Skill

Personally the best bards will have enough equipment to run both roles. I know that i want a set of exp gear and a set of HNM gear. Also someone earlier said opo opo vs. wind torque... Don't know if you realize this but they are in different equip spots.

I too want to know exactly how they affect our battle abilities because they have released info like this for things like vit/def and str/atk etc.

quastion was: torque vs. star -_-

but i can say: opo vs demon helm, it's the same

just for saying: yesterday i was fighting hakutaku for the optical hat and even with +64chr i get a lot of resisted ;_; even for finale -_- i think a little more skill si needed

[Vilurum]

Hakutaku even resists me whether I'm using +skill or +CHR. It's occasional, not constant, but it does happen. If your profile is accurate and you're level 65 (and not higher), the level difference is probably accounting for most of the resists.

I'd say that either a Wind Torque or a Star Necklace is good. What I personally wore:

15-58: Bird Whistle
59-64: Star Necklace
65-74: Wind Torque and String Torque, macro'd in for appropriate songs (thus usually Wind Torque)
75: Star Necklace

I do still have my Wind Torque and String Torque too.

Basically at 75, your level difference will be favorable enough, *and* you'll have so many options for CHR equipment, that you really won't get many resists regardless of neck equipment. I wear the Star Necklace for both the CHR and the MP.

Before 75, you will get more resists, *and* +skill will actually do more to improve your buffs than it does at 75, so Wind Torque is more useful.

We don't know whether 7 skill or 3 CHR helps more for resists. At 75, things will basically fall into one of two categories:
- Extremely easy to debuff, regardless of equipment. This is most enemies in the game (and very few normal enemies are even Incredibly Tough).
- Nearly impossible to debuff, regardless of equipment. This is the more powerful HNMs.

So it's hard to check.

[Lushipur]

another issue with khtk was finale -_-

the rdm dispelled easily while i get resisted most of the time ;_;

i dunno if a military harp will help in this situation ;_;

[Faranim]

The reason why so many are confused over this is that you often forget one thing that prevails ENTIRELY throughout FFXI:

Your ACTUAL JOB LEVEL is also used to determing if a song lands or not.

Ever leveled a melee job? Ever notice how gaining one level can turn difficult monsters into cake? It's not because of the 1 extra STR and DEX you got, or the extra equipment... it's because of the level.

This is why if you had a level 65 BRD and 75 BRD with identical skill and CHR stats, the 75 BRD would win hands down.

[Lushipur]

yes the level is important but i always thinked because of the base stat you increase

i know that a 75 brd vs. hktk will own
but i thinked that with a good boost of chr (+34 from etude) will do the same ;_;