My first (six) BCNM(s)

[tnt118]

Also, I insist on being the first to run in now since too many people don't know how to group mobs together well.

Spoken as one who's never done this.. um.. all my tank has ever done was run and the rest takes care of itself -- so what kind of "strategy" do you use? The mobs seem to aggro just fine on their own...

[Layoneil]

Spoken as one who's never done this..

hmm... i think it's pretty safe to say that Faranim has done BCNMs.

um.. all my tank has ever done was run and the rest takes care of itself -- so what kind of "strategy" do you use? The mobs seem to aggro just fine on their own...

it's possible to run in and not group them close enough together. i've had this happen where no Mandy was at a centerpoint that i could sleep all of them (didn't help that it was my first night trying to do it).

[Xerlic]

Hume Hero: When they run in, they'll start to converge around you. There's really no perfect one to pick. I find the black unreliable as a target since he sometimes stops walking towards you to cast a spell. I usually target the white that's closest on the right and run straight for him, but also be prepared to choose a different target.

Monkor: RDM over WHM any day. ^^

I find having another body in the way makes it harder for me to get a target. I often have to run in and move my camera around to find the best target, and that just wastes time. I tried using a melee to gather the mandragoras, and I missed the sleep 3 out of 4 times. So I just go with what works. I suggest everyone else do the same, whether you use this method or a different one. The one danger that you do run when you're the first one in is you're the target of Flood. If this does happen, make sure the black mandragora is hit with lullaby and make sure the damage dealers know not to wake him up. He has to be asleep when the spell resolves for it to interrupt. If he wakes up prior to that, the spell will still go off regardless if you landed a lullaby. This happened to me a couple nights ago when I had a ragner with an itchy trigger finger. You can also do elemental seal + Silence or Stun, but neither of those have 100% chance of working. If none of that works, run out of the range of the spell after you land the sleep. You should have plenty of time to get out of range. However if the mandragoras wake up, you run the risk of them chasing you out of the circle.

[Vilurum]

Black one's a perfectly decent target so long as the first one in there (whether it's you or someone else) is running *towards the black one*. Because even if it stops, the rest will converge around you, and therefore around it.

My advice is, as I said before in my typically-enormous post, to use a harp for your first sleep or any sleep after moving. It has a much more forgiving range, and the point early on is less to have them asleep and more to have them paying attention to you rather than someone else.

If they get resists because you're not using a CHR horn, or they don't stay asleep as long because you're not using a Mary's Horn, big deal. So long as your CHR from other items is halfway decent, most if not all of them will fall asleep, and stay asleep a good while anyway.

Also, even if you do miss one of them, it's nothing a Foe Lullaby can't handle, or (unless it's the first sleep and it doesn't hate you yet) you can just sit there and let it smack you. And move around a bit to adjust its position so it'll be put to sleep next time. :D

[Seeker_Onos]

Long post coming, please forgive me... m(-_-m

Stoneskin makes a huge difference, in my mind. I'm only 8 levels and another Genkai away from having that ungimped... ><#

Until then, I think I'll be more comfortable hiding behind a PLD or WAR for the initial sleep. Once Big Blackie is pulled away, I'm a happier Taru.

I do like the idea of 3x RNG or 3x SAM or 3x BSTs* for heavier damage output though, as Faranim suggested.

I wish I could find folks interested in doing this on a regular basis together - I have yet to win a BCNM40, since pick-up PTs for this are an ugly thing.

How critical is Mary's Horn for this, anyway? I have tried BCNM with it (borrowed since I'm poor as hell) and without it, and I am about ready to pull my hair out from trying to farm the remaining 90K I need to get my own Mary's Horn. Nevermind camping her; always a dozen high level RNG/NIN in Konschtat mass-murdering sheep for her - and in the 7 times I've fought her, I've gotten one Mary's Milk...)

As I might have noted before, Mary's Horn slept some of the onions longer than others, but the durations seemed to have no consistency... I would always have a few early wakers pummeling me. And there was the tricky range of the Horn - often I might have stragglers that did not get slept, thus forcing the BLM to break away from healing the PT or keeping Blackie silenced.

The Harp lasted only long enough for me to pop out a DS/Curaga or self-Cure II or a Ballad, but always slept all of the white onions. This is with +17CHR on top of my base CHR of 40. Harp does the trick, but hardly enough time to get a two songs or spells off. I must to get in the habit of casting any Cures before Ballad due to the interrupt issue (the panic factor of a mage with 20% MP shouting for "Ballad, plz!!" can be quite influential)

Still trying to coordinate a static/set PT to do this - got lined up so far:

BRD/WHM (me)
BST/WHM (charms an onion, for extra meatshield ^^ )
WHM/BLM (shadows me, with special /ma "Cure II" <p2> for me) and ES/Silences Black Mandy. *OR* WHM/SMN with Garuda and Titan for Blinkga and Stoneskinga, and of course, added MP...
(open)
(open)
(open)

The three open slots I'd like to fill with RNG or SAM for highest amount of damage, with flexibility to swap one of the openings for a DRK that knows how to stun Blackie when he's warming up one of his killer spells.

What would really make me tingle with joy... is getting as many BST/WHM or BST/RNG - the more white onions charmed to beat up on Blackie, the better.

There is a 6x BST static PT that regularly cleans out the Giddeus BCNM on our server... as much as I enjoy BRD, I'm seriously thinking about leveling BST for this event.

I plan on running a sort of a recruiting drive for this ideal PT this weekend.

The wierd thing is, I get a lot of invites for BCNM40, until they read the other search data that says I'm Tarutaru... then it's "Oops, I'm sorry, mistell!"

There's even one BLM with "BCNM40: Elvaan or Galkan BRDs ONLY" in his search comment... at least that's a change from the numerous "JP ONLY" comments on the Japanese player's comments.

Some of my glaring weakness include, but are not limited to the following:

-I'm a Tarutaru BRD50/WHM25 as of this posting.

-I have no HQ instruments yet. (HQ or +1 instruments seem to be exceptionally rare on Pandamonium server, and therefore quite expensive. I remember seeing a Trav.+1 for 40K a while back in Jeuno...)

-No Mary's Horn. (got 18K out of a needed 120K ><# ) I think I can get by without it, if everyone in the PT is on top of their game... but try to convince other folks who are convinced of its "uberness" otherwise.

Assuming that Mary's does sleep all the onions (no stragglers), and further assuming that there is very little variance in the waking times of the onions, then I will agree that Mary's is vital to success, and gives a larger margin for error.

But I cannot speak from the experience of having won one of these yet.

So, my question is: Am I spinning my wheels with these ideas, or do I have a fair shot of winning, should I locate folks who have the jobs I mentioned above?

[Xerlic]

I'd definitely say don't give up. I won't lie. Tarutaru probably has the worst time doing this since the lowered VIT and HP hurts us. On Titan, one of the most famous NA bards to do BC40 is Mahler and he's a Taru. He's got something like 30+ wins and maybe 6 losses. So don't give up. I think it's kinda stupid that people send you tells for BC40 and then try to pawn it off as a mistell. That's poor etiquette right there.

BC40 is doable without Mary's Horn. If you can time the sleeps correctly in a lag-free environment, you can get away with getting sleeps off without the mandragoras hitting you sometimes. Yes, even with Mary's Horn, there will be a bunch of stragglers who can wake early. The only advice is to just take the hits. If you can't take a few rounds from 2-3 mandragoras, then you're doing something wrong eq or food wise. ^^

Once you start winning a few bc40, your name will start to circulate. Pickup parties usually do suck if there's nobody with experience in the group, but they're a good way to get your name out.

Vilurum: The few times I've instructed tanks to gather the mandragoras and run straight for the black onion, they've been unable to do so. I don't know why. I just pass it off as meat shield stupidity. I'm just more confident taking care of the onions entirely by myself.

[Vilurum]

Aye, meatshield stupidity. Which is why I don't accept BCNM invites from strangers. :D

Mary's Horn is just as capable of early wakers as another instrument, it's just that the full duration of sleep is longer. Early wakers are due to partial resistance, so more CHR will help with that. I go in with +20 CHR (Paper Knife, Noble's Ribbon, Bird Whistle, 2x Pearl Ring, Corsette +1, Hume RSE ... I have a signa but don't need the 6 CHR as much as the 5 VIT). I get an outright resist maybe once per 6 BCNMs, if that. Partial resists, I get a few, maybe one or two mandys every other sleep.

I had an easier time with Mary's Horn, because I had time for a Cure II on myself plus two full songs (Ballad + Minne II/Paeon III, both played with a harp to get as many people as possible without my moving). Though just to be safe, it was usually more like Cure II plus one song, then wait around ready to use Horde Lullaby asap. And because they slept longer, I had to be healed fewer times, and I also got less hate from fewer lullabies, so the melees had an easier time pulling mandys away from me.

So, yes, it's easier. But it's far from essential. Use a Royal Spearman's Horn (+3 CHR), San d'Orian Horn (+3 CHR, +3 HP, +3 MP), or Kingdom Horn (+3 CHR, +4 HP, +4 MP) if you don't have Mary's Horn. RSH is quite cheap (under 10K), the others are moderately pricy and really aren't worth it just for the tiny HP and MP boosts.

I'm sure your singing and wind are capped for a level 40 battle by now. Your string may or may not be capped for level 40 since a lot of bards only use string for paeon ... if it's low, you'll have a much harder time sleeping them with a harp. I hadn't thought of that, since I keep both skills capped myself. But if that's the case for you, either skillup on string (Lullaby + Threnody spam :D) or don't use a harp.

Be warned that due to the level 40 cap, only the Stoneskin you cast on yourself before the battle will matter (you can use Blink in battle, but it's more MP-efficient to use Cure II). Same goes for any SMN buffs ... a WHM/SMN will only be able to use level 20 avatar buffs, since they'll be 40/20 for the battle. RDM is the ideal healer for this, due entirely to Convert. However, it *does* help to get a Protect III or IV before going in, if you can. Protect III should last most or all of the battle at level 40; I don't know how long Protect IV would last as I haven't been able to try BCNM with one.

As I said before with harp vs. horn ... use a harp for the first few sleeps, until you're sure they hate you (and have healers stand next to you ... so even if they get aggro, mandys don't move anywhere). After that, switch to a horn and target the centermost one (by this time they're all clustered around you). If that means one or two on the far outside don't get slept, well ... move around. They'll follow you so they can hit you, so you can manipulate their positions until they're in the clump with the rest.

Remember - any WHM spells you cast, cast them right after resleeping. Your songs can't be interrupted by early wakers. Your spells can be.

Bring a few Hi-Potions and Yagudo Drinks for emergencies. Macro them. If you die, everyone dies (unless there are very few mandys left), so if you have to guzzle a Hi-Potion because nobody (yourself included) has the MP to heal you, do so.

Eat yer crab.

[tnt118]

Originally posted by Layoneil


hmm... i think it's pretty safe to say that Faranim has done BCNMs.

I'll try to give input on other questions later on when I'm on my break, but as for the above quote that was quoting me: um, whaaaat?!

I think you took my post out of context? And where does Faranim come into it again? Here's the reworded point of my post: Since I've never run into the BCNM first, and my tank has never had an issue with gathering them into harp range, I didn't see a) why bards prefered doing just that and b) what makes it tough for the tank to do this 'correctly'.

That is all.

-jamison

[Psychochild]

Why do people only do Giddeus BCNM? The one in Palborough mines is FAR easier. As long as you have two rangers ready to barrage that evil tractoring worm, earth carol, and barstonra, it's a very easy battle.

[Seeker_Onos]

I was wondering about that one as well.

I think it has something to do with the drops, right?

Do the same scrolls (Erase, Phalanx, Usetsumi) and other drops occur only at Giddeus, or are they common to all BCNM40?


Bring a BST or two along, and a BLM to nuke-ga/bind the other worms... it might be very doable.

BSTs can charm the closest worms and sic them on neighboring worms...

and advance along the perimeter until the worms are beaten.

Possible?

[tnt118]

Originally posted by Seeker_Onos
I was wondering about that one as well.

I think it has something to do with the drops, right?

Do the same scrolls (Erase, Phalanx, Usetsumi) and other drops occur only at Giddeus, or are they common to all BCNM40?


Bring a BST or two along, and a BLM to nuke-ga/bind the other worms... it might be very doable.

BSTs can charm the closest worms and sic them on neighboring worms...

and advance along the perimeter until the worms are beaten.

Possible?

In the 17 times I've won Giddeus, I've seen aprroximately 10 Erase, 7 Phanlax, and 8-9 Utsusemi: Ni's. In the 4 times I've won Palborough, and additionally the 8 times I've watched a BLM friend do it (so 12 times total) I've seen Erase drop 3 times. Now I'm not claiming this is enough data to make any claims, and BCNMs seem to be highly variable on their drops (I've had Giddeus drop Erase 5 of 6 wins, or 1 of 6) but it sure seems that the drop rate is better. Besides, Palborough feels like cheating almost... it's too easy on the bard! =)

[Nodachi]

Originally posted by Faranim
In my opinion:

Tank classes (PLD and NIN) are useless in BCNM40. Tanks are NOT required AT ALL... those mandras are a bunch of wimps. Get yourself a Bard, healer, and damage damage damage damage.

Though i don't entirely disagree with this i would rather have a ninja than not. Also i would prefer a ninja over pld as well. Reason for this is incase your mages arn't able to get the thing silenced in time, your ninja will dodge flood without any worry. Also if you are going for speed and not worried a whole lot about hate consistancy. You should really try and bring a DRK and a RNG. DRK has the natural passive up against these type of enemies and just seems to rock them. And ranger well, yeah ranger just owns damage all around. Unfortunately my setup has niether with it just being my set PT of NIN, THF, SAM, RDM, WHM, BRD. But we still get the job done in well under 20 minutes.

Also after watching your video Dhermann, i have a few things to point out that may help for you and others. First being your first two songs you play before the fight begins. Infact, you only played one. You can keep your water carol if you insist but i'm not entirely sure how much it really helps. But the two songs i choose to usually play are Minne - then follow up with ballad. After doing this, we no longer use the original have tank run in and taunt while bard follows. Instead we have the BRD (me) Stand close enough to foe lullaby the black mandragora. (Domorovi or whatever) Once BRD cast casted foe on the main mandragora, he will gain enough hate from the white mandragoras for the melee to run past them and begin fighting the black one. During this time the white mandragoras all poor to the entrance of that hallway where they bunch quite nicely for Horde Lullaby. This tactic avoids any random straying that occurs at random when the tank runs in and bard follows. It also seperates the black one from the whites very well and very destinctly.

If you have questions about it i have a video clip of this bit being done if any of you are confused. I don't have webspace to host it unfortunately but if you contact me on AIM or MSN (Handle is KrsJin) i'd be glad to give it to you.

[Quaerito]

Just a little contribution from me. Nodachi mentioned that his PT now opens the BCNM with the BRD using Foe Lullaby on the blackMandy, then Horde Lullaby on the whiteMandys. I made a video of it some time back, if anyone wants to see it. This was a rather terrifying attempt because the blackMandy spammed Flood, starting it just soon after it first wakes up (as you'll see in the video), but you won't get to see the other Flood attempts ^^.

http://beernkros.zetanet.net/video/v...separation.avi

OR

http://www.geocities.com/jnixon16/in...separation.avi

Not to steal any of your thunder, Nodachi. /bow Nodachi ^^

As mentioned, Harp is the way to go for the first Horde. My Harp switching macro prevents the Lullaby sprites from appearing on the whiteMandys, but you can see from the log that they're asleep.

[Nodachi]

Originally posted by Quaerito
Not to steal any of your thunder, Nodachi. /bow Nodachi ^^

XD Don't worry about it at all, because the truth is i'm unable to make videos and was just gona show them yours lol. But yes there is a textbook example of what i was trying to describe -

[sun2mid]

That looked like it worked really well, though i can imagine it is a bit nerve racking. Would you recommend not doing this your first few times through a bcnm or would it be a fine strategy?

Also i noticed someone posted earlier and they had a lot of +evasion gear on. Is this worth it? do you notice a big difference?