My first (six) BCNM(s)

[tnt118]

If anyone remembers any of my other posts, you may recall I've been anxiouslly awaiting BCNM40 for months. Well yesterday I finally got my chance and here's some general notes on how it went. I'm not claiming to be an expert - and in fact I know there were a lot of things we could have done better.

PT: PLD, BLM, BLM, RDM, WHM, BRD (me)

Net result: 4 wins, 1 tie, 1 loss.

We spent over an hour getting ready, making sure everyone had their potions and food ... this took a good bit longer than I expected it to but was vitial for the successs that we did have.

The first run was *very* nerve-racking. Now I know why they call it a burning circle... because it gets ****'ing hot when you are in there! PLD got hit with flood and died, I botched a lullaby (too early), and I don't think there was any way for us to win. Lesson learned: no matter how much you think you know about BCNM before your first time, you are still going to get spanked.

But learning is key, and we had a group that could figure out good ways to overcome the problems that we were facing. We adjusted our strategy after every fight.

Second run we were holding our own, but due to low damage output (who would have thought two BLM would be a cause for not enough damage?!). Time ran out when we were halfway through the last onion. It was a big disappointment because we didn't realize we were close to running out of time, and we all thought the win was a lock. Lesson learned: 1) keep track of time and 2) downtime will kill you. I don't think we seriously considered that running out of time would even be a factor.

Third run: VICTORY! .. and Erase. Suddenly all our problems dissappeared, and there was much talk of loving each other and being the bestest coolest group ever. You know, the usual. Time was around 28 minutes (yeah, I know) but the mental boost from knowing we could do it was huge.

Forth run my keyboard locked up on me while there were still 3 onions left, and I thought for sure we were dead. I couldn't respond at all for almost a full minute, while everyone focused purely on curing me. When I finally got marginal mouse control back, I was able to gimp my way through the rest of the fight. I think we had less than 30 seconds to spare.

[Sidenote: bug/virus/I don't know, but the first thing I did when I logged off was reinstall windows. I wanted to throw my computer off the balcony!]

Fifth and sixth runs were fairly straightforward, easy victories for us, although each did take nearly 25 minutes. We did get Phanlax one of those times, and the ninja scroll. In the end we each netted 130k. Needless to say there were no complaints for any of us.

As for our stratigy, we ran in and buffed, then the PLD gathered the onions together. I used Mary's horn for the initial Lullaby, only twice did I miss any of them. While strays never became an issue, it would have gone better had there been none. Next time I'll use a harp.

Each time they woke, both the WHM and myself would do one Cure II each to get me back up to full health. I had 499 hitpoints (Taru) and would drop to between 1/2 and 1/3 each time. Stressful, but the WHM and I worked very well together. I used fish chiefkabobs and the Cuir armor set. 150 Def unbuffed, around 180-190-ish after buffs. So each round I'd do one Cure II on myself, sing one song (I alternated between Ballad and Minne -- the melee wasn't close enough to get songs onto him). The mages would alternate being in ballad range so it was on them at almost all times. On the 5th/6th runs I was comfortable enough singing two songs between each round of sleep, and as a fairly good targeter I would sometimes do a foe lullaby on strays. It wasn't neccesary, and my advice is unless you are comfortable changing targets quickly and accuractly don't bother. My evasion quickly capped up to 109.

The biggest downside to the fight taking so long was that by the time we got to the last 2-3 onions, there was no way to get the hate off of me, I'd slept them far too often. So I would always end up physically tanking them. While not a huge problem, it wasn't the way things were supposed to work. ;-) Also in three of the fights one of the BLM would use a two-hour to speed things up. Not ideal, but it's what we needed to do.

I know there were a lot of things I can do better to quicken the battle. I was able to start getting Requiem and Elegy on whichever onion was currently being fought, and the RDM started melee'ing when we got near the end. Also our PT wasn't ideal (again, we thought with two BLM we were golden, but they spent far too much time healing). I would have much rather had a MNK tank and a RNG instead of a BLM, but we were determined to make it work with the group we had. Again, given we got both Erase and Phanlax, we didn't have much room to complain.

So, that's my story! Questions and comments are most welcome.

-jamison
-bcnm40: 4/1/1

[Bamce Sylph]

my semi consistant bc group is bard, pal, red, summon, blm and melee_x the melee is nice for having sustained damage and additional tricks, sneak/trick, beserk, provoke, all around general goodness, 2 blm's are very mana intensive and thus will be taking time not doinging anything /healing for mp's granted u can bring juice and have ballad but u can only go so far where as that second melee lets u skillchain, magicburst etc. my group generally runs about 20-25 min, but we have almost 100% control of the fight, i would take control over speed anyday. (btw summoner prebuffed w/ blinkga, stoneskinga, and shockspikes, then in backuphealed and did blinkga as he felt appriate)

[Xccoortri]

Heh, I remember my first time doing it, I was shaking so hard that my hands were clacking on my keyboard...it was really intense...now I sit back, eat popcorn, chat with my party and do other things while I'm doing it hehe...it is still the most fun I've ever had in FFXI so far, and it's a fantastic way to make some gil too ^^


Also...why did you eat chief kabobs??? Wouldn't eating steamed or boiled crab be better? My def is usually around 234 when I go in... after using crab, having alright armor, RSE lately, protect III and Minne

[Bamce Sylph]

personally i wouldn't use cheif's b/c of hte one hour duration being wasted, the events take max 25minish, and your limited to 30 min so all that time running back is wasted of the kabob only to have to eat another one midfight, currently i like my 5.5/stack fish's and gettign 11k avg back off of them from the 1k winnings

[mIze]

Sounds good, but wow, there's at least one shard of proof that Taru has its downsides to bard.

180-190 def w/ cuir armor and all buffs/food. With RSE, food, Protect III, and minne, I had something like 260-270. And like.. 620 or so HP. Now of course Taru probably had something like 200 mana, but still it's neat to compare. I took a lot less on hits and could almost just keep myself healed w/ ballad and resting.

I did many BC40's with 1 BST also, it's GREAT. All bards talk about those last 2-3 mandras that will never come off. Our bst charmed one, sent it against the currently attacked onion, then released when it was dead. Instantly takes all hate off the bard. Then our pld could voke it and control it. Bst charmed another, etc., until they were all gone.

And a tip for anyone struggling w/ BC40: if you get an instance where too many wake up before the others, use Banishga to get them all up and re-sleep. Or if you miss one, use Foe Lullaby, and then before you have to re-sleep the others, engage and hit it, disengage, and Horde. Banish works the same for that. Just never ever Dia or Requiem anything that might need to be slept.

[Faranim]

Congrats on your first time!

I lost my first 3-4 BC40's with random pickup groups (although it wasn't usually my fault... going in with 6 unexperienced people will almost certainly = death) before I got the strategy down.

I'd like to point out that any more than 2 mages will be a painful experience. Ideally you will want 1 Bard, 1 Healer, and 4 Melee damage dealers. However most parties I know go with 2 mages + Bard, and 3 damage dealers.

Your party setup is designed for very long, drawn-out, but safe battles. With that many mages there would always be someone capable of healing the bard. But damage output is waay too low.

[tnt118]

Now you guys have me questioning my own stats! :confused: It's very possible my numbers could be off, or I was looking at it before the Protect and Minne buffs. We're doing this again this weekend, and I'll double check numbers then. For it being my first time, I was more concerned with simply living through the experience. =)

I use chiefkabobs because (at least according to allkazham) they add about 2% more DEF and also one point of CHR -- admittedly at the expense of 2 (3?) VIT.

As Taru I know I had 499 hit points, but I don't remember the MP. Gernally I'd be tossing one Cure II on myself each sleep-round, and ballad restored around 70-80% of the MP cost before the next cast. If I didn't take too many hits I'd cure the tank instead of myself. After the second fight, I'd noticed I was sitting at full or near-full MP most of the battle and was looking for a way to take some pressure off the other mages.

But that brings me to an interesting point, something I noticed repeatedly through all six runs. During the first third of the fight, each time the mobs woke they'd all do their normal attacks on me, and as I said before that'd take half (if not a little more) of my hit points each time [sidenote: this leave zero error for a botched lullaby. Botched lullaby + taru bard = death]. Often I'd see my life go down before I even got the message that they were awake.

Now for the middle third of the fight, I'd always get the sleep off before any of them could hit me. Not one single hit. It's as if they were either between attacks, or readying a special attack. I didn't change my timing, meaning I still waiting to see the "wake" message before recasting lullaby. In the final third of the battle, they'd go back to hitting me as normal.

Have any other bards experienced this? Is there a way to time the lullably so that you can always resleep *between* their attacks? Does the concept of delay even figure in the same way for mobs as it does for PCs, and does that counting keep going while they are asleep? Aspiring bards want to know!

[tnt118]

The other question I forgot to ask: is it true that speed determines the quality and/or quantity of the drops? I know that is the generally accepted belief, but that doesn't make it true. When Erase dropped our clear time was around 28 minutes.

[Bamce Sylph]

botched lullaby=everyone dies, unless u do something right there, right then, ie blm sleepga and pray, your dead, in the 24sec recast those mandras will bemuiating any bard, said bard will not be able to healhimself, other ppl will chain heal him, depending on how early in the fight this happens, over agro, spread out hte mandras and game over.

i've also noticed the sleep, no attacks thing, you mention, i will chalk it up to luck maybe server lag, something but i love those rounds.

i will also have to disagree w/ one bard, one healer 4 melee, u loose alot by not including a red or blm, magic bursts do nice, burst damage, also, if something happens, ie the paralyna on the bard gets paralyzed away, your in trouble. when i go everyone who can cast has a hotkey /ma "Paralyzna" Bamce and they all hit it when it ae paralyzes that can happen and needs to be fixed asap i like my set up of sum, red, blm, bard, pal, melee. allows prefight summoner buffing, in battle converts, high damage magic bursts and an additional seal+silence just in case and also allows 3 people to cast curaga after the mandra's ae sleep, we would usually have the pally cast cure1 on me (bard) i would put the mandras back down, and cast curaga to wake everyone. i also run ballad and paeon as my songs and usually don't try anything fancy, ie requim, elegy, finale until at least the blackone is dead screwups that early can be real bad

[Xccoortri]

The thing that happens when the mandras just don't attack happens quite often to me too. I think it just has to do with them being at the top of their delay and you popping off a lullabye fast enough.. And I geuss the only secure way to pop off a lullabye and have them ont hit is to cast it just before the "mandragora has worken up" appears...Which really isn't possible...I've hit the wrong macro a few times, panicked, and then they wake up about a millisecond before my lullabye goes off ^^ But that is just getting lucky


As for the 4 melee, bard and whm or rdm setup...that is not the setup for un-experienced BCNMers...you will almost deffinitley fail...I'd say in order to do that setup, you would require mary's horn, because if the whm is going to have to heal everyone, you are going to need that extra sleep time to heal yourself, and you are going to take less aggregate hits by the end of the match. I do not think PLD's have a place in BCNM really, because a mnk can do the job just as well (and a galka monk can do the job better IMO), but if you want to go the way of the 4 melee, I'd say a pld will really help, becuase he can keep himself healed for a while.

2 rangers is also great, because rangers just devistate in BCNM40.

If you are going for speed, and are experienced, try the 4 melee type, with a bard and a hyealer (I'd say red mage because they can use convert and have a double mana pool)
And if you want safe, secure wins, go with 3 melees, 2 mages and a bard.

[Liberalkami]

All of you seem to either be lucky, or really damn good. I seem to be either unlucky, or really fucking bad. My current BCNM record? 0-6. Damn pickup parties. My most recent only had two melee, and three mages. Of course, I'm pretty positive that my crappiness at keeping the onions sleeping is what's killing my pt each time. I don't think I'm going to try a BCNM ever again, I'm either not cut out, or will never find a pt that is.

[Xccoortri]

I think it's the idea of the pickup party that really makes peple get frustrated with BCNM. If you have a pickup party, there is a huge chance you'll get in with some unskilled people, or plain ignorant people who don't listen.

When I first tried BCNM, I posted a topic on my linkshell's messageboard, talking about it...we all discussed it for about 4 pages, I did over 2 weeks of reserach, watched faranim's vid like 99 times () And talked to every high bard I knew.

After that we got out 6 person PT together, went over the strategy a ton of times, went in, and STILL died. It is innevitable, you can't let it get you down. But we knew we would die, so we tried again right away, dead again. The third time we did it though. ANd ever since then we've been going strong. It just takes some perseverence, and some players you know are skilled, willing to die a few times, and willing to LISTEN to instructions. Once you get it once or twice, you will only fail it on occasion (like the time the mandragora casted flood 4 times hehe)

[Bamce Sylph]

"Damn pickup parties" that is most likely the problem. everytime i do it w/ a "pickup" group. usualy friends, and friends of friends who havn't done it before. i expect to loose, simply due to inexperience. no amount of reading, vid watching, preperation can get your ready for this w/o having real exp.

about the waking dicussion. in 40's summoners w/ levitiathan have slowga not sure on its duration since the summoner doesn't get to see it (I don't think) but that can help.

tank, i still go w/ pally b/c pally can wake someone up after the mandra's sleep you, and having everyone up before the mandras wake, i'll take over extra hps any day.

[Seeker_Onos]

Heh.... tell me about it.

Pickup PTs are not good for winning BCNM40 consistently.

Liberalkami, I might make you feel a bit better about your situation:

I did BCNM40 this past Saturday, 0-8 win/loss. :sweat: Got royally spanked on the first go, Black Mandra cast Flood in the opening 20sec. He hit my little Taru self with 668 damage (I had 510HP and 160+ DEF with steamed crab and Protect II + Barwatera + Water Carol up).

The subsequent tries we found ourselves rotating through a BLM, and our planning was off, we didn't have the right foods on another, and I am certain that I botched a lullabye on at least twice - the timing with landing on the white onions as they start beating on the PLD.

I'm not ready to give up yet. I'm working on putting together a couple of set PTs, one with my LS and another with a BST I know, and a few reliable melees and mages.

I will have to work with 2 different strategies on that account, but I know that it will be better than trying to wing it with folks that may not want to listen or work well together.

I'm also working on getting Mary's Horn and my other +1 instruments (major cash outlay there, as we all know what kind of a nuisance it can be to farm as a BRD).

Right now (at capped lvl 40) I have 42 base CHR + 17 with gear and + 22 with gear and Etude (which I do for the inital Horde Lullaby with Ryl.Spr. Horn)

BCNM40 equipment:

Ryl.Spr. Horn (+3CHR)
(Pearl?) Rings x2 (+4CHR)
Corsette (+5CHR)
AF1 Paper Knife (+2CHR)
Bird Whistle (+3CHR)
Wonder Mitts (RSE: +6DEF +12HP +3STR)
Cuir Bandana (+14DEF)
Cuir Bouilli (+28DEF)
Cuir Highboots (+8DEF)
White Cape

The strategy I hope to try on my next go with my LS is an adaptation of Faranim's strategy from his video, but I may need to make some changes (such as the fact that he seems to consistently Elegy the white onion that the melees are fighting) and to figure out the best way to cycle my songs.

The bes thing I can think of for now is this:

Horde Lullaby (2 sec charging time/26 sec. until reloaded)
.
.---------------------------------------------(mobs are slept for ~8sec)
Ballad (8 sec charging time/32 sec. until reloaded)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.---------------------------------------------(mobs begin to wake)
Curega (keeps hate on me, cures me, wakes anyone who's been Dream Flowered {sleepga'd by the onions} - 4sec charging time)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
/p or Echo message to self: "10 SEC UNTIL HORDE SLEEP READY!"
Paeon III (8 sec charging time, 32 sec until reloaded)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
/p or Echo message to self: "HORDE SLEEP READY **NOW**!!!

The timing gets a bit weird after that, and I will just continue cycling thru Paeon III and Ballad and Curega, whilst watching for the all important Horde ready messages...

[Liberalkami]

Well, I just watched Faranim's BCNM40 video, and I'll no doubt be watching it again and again in the future.

Essentially, what I've boiled all this down to is a few key elements. First, I have to do my job, and do it well. So long as I can keep those white onions asleep without taking too much damage, then everyone else takes less damage, as well as myself. Second, the WHM has to keep me alive at all costs. Third, the melee configuration requires at the very least a PLD and two very good damage dealers. Two RNG if at all possible, but one could also sub in a DRK, SAM, or even a MNK. They must kill the black onion as quickly as they can.

From my current experiences, these three parts of the fight are the most important, and if they are not fufilled, then victory is impossible. Of course, there are other elements to the fight which will help speed things up and make it easier, but if the above three aren't happenning, then there's no use discussing anything else.

I hope that I am at least somewhat accurate about this. Really, I'd like to one day find a group of people that can succeed at this, so I don't have to complain about it anymore.