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  • #31
    Originally posted by Aniga


    You're fine to be taking charge and using your WHM sub to its utmost ability, and I don't have any critiscisms for your playstyle. However, my main point is that whenever you DO hit 0 MP, if you had chosen Taru you would still have some left.



    You're fine to be taking charge and using your BRD main to its utmost ability, and I don't have any critiscisms for your playstyle. However, my main point is that whenever you DO hit for 4 damage, if you had chosen Elvaan you would have hit for 20 damage.


    You're fine to be taking charge and using your BRD main to its utmost ability, and I don't have any critiscisms for your playstyle. However, my main point is that whenever you get attacked by (Insert super strong HNM area attack here), if you had chosen Elvaan or Galka you would still have been alive.


    To clearify, saying that Taru has the best stats for the job is false. You're only taking two stats into consideration here, which is the problem with all your arguments in this thread.
    BRD 75 / NIN 66 / WHM 37 / WAR 30 / RDM 23 / BST 20

    San d'Oria Rank 10
    Zilart Mission 14
    CoP Chapter 4-2

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Rekiem
      To clearify, saying that Taru has the best stats for the job is false. You're only taking two stats into consideration here, which is the problem with all your arguments in this thread.
      Finally someone is attacking my argument at the right angle. I defend these two stats because they are the only two stats that matter at all to a bard - MP and Charisma.

      You're fine to be taking charge and using your BRD main to its utmost ability, and I don't have any critiscisms for your playstyle. However, my main point is that whenever you DO hit for 4 damage, if you had chosen Elvaan you would have hit for 20 damage.
      And then when you come to the fact that bard melee is negligble in 99% of all situations, short of soloing, this point isn't very good. Of course you'll respond with 'But you should melee in groups! That 15-20 points of damage adds up!', etcetra. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point, because I believe that a bard's time can be better spent than sitting back and missing in an experience group. And if you're meleeing during a HNM battle you are amazingly crazy.

      You're fine to be taking charge and using your BRD main to its utmost ability, and I don't have any critiscisms for your playstyle. However, my main point is that whenever you get attacked by (Insert super strong HNM area attack here), if you had chosen Elvaan or Galka you would still have been alive.


      I've yet to find one of these super strong HNM Area Attacks where 200 more HP would have saved me, but if I do I'll let you know. I'll draw upon my experience with Genbu, a HNM in Ru'Ann Gardens. He has an AE physical attack for 250 or so, which is blinked away, and Waterga III which hits me for 300-400, which is reduced to 250 or so because of Water Carol and Barwatera. Having an extra 200 HP won't matter here, because when I DO draw agro he smacks me for 750 melee.

      What does matter in this situation is all the extra CHR/MP I would have over any other race bard would kick in. And this is the main base of my argument, mainly. However, you all are jumping to conclusions and thinking that I'm saying that other races cannot make suitable bards, which is just not true. The main fact is that any other race cannot match a Tarutaru in the two stats that MATTER--Charisma and Magic Points. To me, the rest are stats that can safely be ignored. A bard's job is to land her songs with as much frequency as possible (Charisma) and support everyone else with her sub as much as possible (Magic Points). Our survivability is high enough, and our melee is negligble.

      But by all means, play how you want.
      Back in Action!

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Niland


        ok let me put it this way: i don't need the extra 40MP that a tarutaru would have. on the other hand there plenty of times when i would have been dead if i was a tarutaru

        there is never any situation where the ability to do one more cure 3 would be 'game changing' its crazy and absurd that people would look at this board and read 'tartaru is the best race for bard' when that statement simply isn't true.

        so if you want to really split hairs and call this extra cure 3 some mind boggling advantage then i'm afraid you can't dismiss the other factors, since having 200 extra hit points, and higher vit and str stats _will_ affect your game play in the long run.

        so you can take an extra hit on the AE of monsters without dying, so you can hit with your weapon for an extra 10dmg or something, etc etc
        I never said that the ability to cast one more Cure III is game changing, but you have to admit that more MP is better than less MP. I believe you're putting too much weight on the importance of Hit Points, and if that's the fact then we'll just have to disagree. I don't see why bards think HP is an importance at all, as you shouldn't be below half at anytime as a Tarutaru if you and your party are playing intelligently.

        If you believe being able to hit for a little more damage or take one more hit is more important than fulfilling your primary role--SUPPORT--then more power to you. We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

        if you want to pick on a 5% advantage of extra MP, then you have to consider the 5% advantage elvaans and humes have in other departments.


        The difference is wayyy more than 5%, but thanks for trying to downplay it

        ok so i'm crap at setting out all this fancy arguments lol, so if i can put it as simply as possible:

        ~a bard needs imo around 200MP to get his/her job done more or less

        ~any race can get above 300 with opo crown, zenith mitts, serket ring if they want to make the effort.

        hell if you used a vermillon, and macroed in your errant when you use attack songs you'd basically never run out of MP

        i think this thread in itself shows that the differences between the races are meaninless.
        A bard should have at least 200 MP to get her job done, BUT having more is better. Certainly you can get your MP high as a Hume, but a Tarutaru can get her's higher, or, can just let you match her MP and instead surpass you in Charisma.

        This thread shows that the difference in races is not huge, but there is a small difference between the races. I'm not coming into this thread yelling that Tarutarus are the best at barding and every other race should just quit while they can, like you guys seem to take it as I am. I'm simply saying that I think the Tarutaru race has the largest potential when it comes to supporting--a bard's main job, and I believe I've defended that point enough. If you want to seem to take it personally, then be my guest, but I'm attacking no one. :sweat:
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        • #34
          Originally posted by Aniga

          And then when you come to the fact that bard melee is negligble in 99% of all situations, short of soloing, this point isn't very good. Of course you'll respond with 'But you should melee in groups! That 15-20 points of damage adds up!', etcetra. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point, because I believe that a bard's time can be better spent than sitting back and missing in an experience group. And if you're meleeing during a HNM battle you are amazingly crazy.
          How is sitting in the back any more usefull than fighting? Its not. Sorry but the 10 seconds you spend sitting are not worth it. You're much better off drawing your sword and poke the monster a few times until the end of the fight.

          I've yet to find one of these super strong HNM Area Attacks where 200 more HP would have saved me, but if I do I'll let you know. I'll draw upon my experience with Genbu, a HNM in Ru'Ann Gardens. He has an AE physical attack for 250 or so, which is blinked away, and Waterga III which hits me for 300-400, which is reduced to 250 or so because of Water Carol and Barwatera. Having an extra 200 HP won't matter here, because when I DO draw agro he smacks me for 750 melee.

          What does matter in this situation is all the extra CHR/MP I would have over any other race bard would kick in. And this is the main base of my argument, mainly. However, you all are jumping to conclusions and thinking that I'm saying that other races cannot make suitable bards, which is just not true. The main fact is that any other race cannot match a Tarutaru in the two stats that MATTER--Charisma and Magic Points. To me, the rest are stats that can safely be ignored. A bard's job is to land her songs with as much frequency as possible (Charisma) and support everyone else with her sub as much as possible (Magic Points). Our survivability is high enough, and our melee is negligble.

          But by all means, play how you want.
          Yes but even if for you, the stat that matters the most is MP, it does not justify the large amount you lose in HP and STR which are also needed. We're talking about 300~400 HP + 16 STR vs. 20-60 MP. Do you understand? Those numbers are huge! Imagine if there was item that would trade those stats I just mentioned, you would probably wear it right as we speak.
          BRD 75 / NIN 66 / WHM 37 / WAR 30 / RDM 23 / BST 20

          San d'Oria Rank 10
          Zilart Mission 14
          CoP Chapter 4-2

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Rekiem


            How is sitting in the back any more usefull than fighting? Its not. Sorry but the 10 seconds you spend sitting are not worth it. You're much better off drawing your sword and poke the monster a few times until the end of the fight.
            Because that time spent in the back is spent regaining your MP, which you should be out of at this time. It also frees you from magical AoE effects (Physical are blocked by blink in this example) which saves you and/or the White Mage the MP needed to heal you, because simply it is a waste of MP to cure the bard. The bard shouldn't need curing, and shouldn't put themselves in damage's way if avoidable.


            Yes but even if for you, the stat that matters the most is MP, it does not justify the large amount you lose in HP and STR which are also needed. We're talking about 300~400 HP + 16 STR vs. 20-60 MP. Do you understand? Those numbers are huge! Imagine if there was item that would trade those stats I just mentioned, you would probably wear it right as we speak.
            400 HP and 16 Strength sounds tempting for 80-100 MP (Estimated at level 75, we need some real numbers because that stat calculator decided to die) if I were soloing. But I'm mainly looking to improve myself as a supporter. This is like asking "Would you like a whole bunch of stats that don't really matter, or a good amount of stats that do matter?" I'd also take the extra AGI I get as a Taru over the STR that I lose to an Elvaan (About 12 Agility), as I would see it more useful.
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            • #36
              Originally posted by Aniga



              A bard should have at least 200 MP to get her job done, BUT having more is better. Certainly you can get your MP high as a Hume, but a Tarutaru can get her's higher, or, can just let you match her MP and instead surpass you in Charisma.

              bang, gotcha. Well thats fine then, we all agree that elvaans and humes can have enough MP to get the job done, so....


              1. why do we need anymore?

              2. wouldn't it be better to hit harder and live longer than have 50MP we don't need?

              thanks^^
              Wandering Minstrel~

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              • #37
                A bard should have at least 200 MP to get her job done, BUT having more is better.
                Aha, there I disagree with you. I had a similar conversation the other day with a taru friend of mine. In an exp PT (I play a SMN) I never have below 200 mp, and this is with constant chaining, and me being main healer with a BRD to help. Essentially, this 200 mp, in MOST circumstances, is utterly useless to me, because it is never drained from - AND I'm a mithra, with about 760-ish mp at level 53. Whereas, yes, a taru may have more mp than me, and because he is so much more used to taking advantage of this, he is also usually left with 150-200 mp - BUT, he has more downtime because he has more mp to regen. I don't have downtime, especially with SMN refresh.

                So, yes, they have more mp than me - that's fine. I don't use that mp anyway. However, I also don't go splat if I get accidental agro - in that respect, hp is much more important to me.

                I still don't see how you can say that hp is not important to BRDs. I have friends who refuse to bring a taru BRD on a BCNM 40 fight because they die too quick.
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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Aniga


                  Because that time spent in the back is spent regaining your MP, which you should be out of at this time. It also frees you from magical AoE effects (Physical are blocked by blink in this example) which saves you and/or the White Mage the MP needed to heal you, because simply it is a waste of MP to cure the bard. The bard shouldn't need curing, and shouldn't put themselves in damage's way if avoidable.



                  You lose almost no HP from fighting exp monsters with area attacks. The only one with a noticable area attack are Darters and Weapon. I can't remember any other monster I've fought in an exp party that was doing serious area damage. Even if there was, I have Stoneskin/Blink on me most of the time. On a side note, the 30 seconds you spend sitting in the back(if you actually manage to be able to sit for that long) will give you 30 MP at best, but if you were fighting, you would have been able to raise your TP, deal some damage and use this neafty WS called Energy Drain.. Giving you back MP than 30 seconds worth of sitting.

                  400 HP and 16 Strength sounds tempting for 80-100 MP (Estimated at level 75, we need some real numbers because that stat calculator decided to die) if I were soloing. But I'm mainly looking to improve myself as a supporter. This is like asking "Would you like a whole bunch of stats that don't really matter, or a good amount of stats that do matter?" I'd also take the extra AGI I get as a Taru over the STR that I lose to an Elvaan (About 12 Agility), as I would see it more useful.
                  Thats the problem, they do matter, you just don't use it. Ok maybe not HP in EXP party but STR is definatly usefull when fighting. AGI? Thats only good for people tanking or people using ranged attack, now that is a useless stat for bards. You see, the problem is that you're losing 300+ HP and 16 STR for like 60 MP. Its not realistic, even for a support job. But even then, if I wanted, I could just swap my belt to a RSE rope and I would get as much MP as you and I would also get to keep my nice HP and STR.
                  BRD 75 / NIN 66 / WHM 37 / WAR 30 / RDM 23 / BST 20

                  San d'Oria Rank 10
                  Zilart Mission 14
                  CoP Chapter 4-2

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Aniga
                    Thanks, then we're at an agreement that Tarutaru makes the best race for a bard
                    I would not say that Tarutaru make the Best BRD's. Best is a powerful word. I'd more likely to say Taru's have better Pro's than most other Races Have.

                    What I am trying to get at is...
                    PICK WHATEVER RACE YOU WANT
                    It wont make you worse than another race.

                    I have friends who tell me I am better than a taruBRD/WHM they have played with, when I am a humeBRD/RDM. It depends on the Skill of the player, not the Race of the Character -_-
                    | SMN 75 | BRD 75 | WHM 37 | RDM 37 | BLM 37 | THF 37
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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Niland


                      bang, gotcha. Well thats fine then, we all agree that elvaans and humes can have enough MP to get the job done, so....


                      1. why do we need anymore?

                      2. wouldn't it be better to hit harder and live longer than have 50MP we don't need?

                      thanks^^
                      1. Why does a PLD need more than 1000 HP? Because it helps him do his job better. Why does a Monk need to hit for more than 70 a fist? Because it makes him do his job better. Why does a Bard need more than 200 MP? Because it makes her do her job better.

                      2. No.
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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Rekiem
                        Thats the problem, they do matter, you just don't use it. Ok maybe not HP in EXP party but STR is definatly usefull when fighting. AGI? Thats only good for people tanking or people using ranged attack, now that is a useless stat for bards. You see, the problem is that you're losing 300+ HP and 16 STR for like 60 MP. Its not realistic, even for a support job. But even then, if I wanted, I could just swap my belt to a RSE rope and I would get as much MP as you and I would also get to keep my nice HP and STR.
                        AGI is good for defensive measures, which is what a bard is, a defensive supportive class. Your offense is meaningless.

                        You could easily switch your equipment around to match my MP, but then your CHR is going to be far lower than mine is. Or, I could easily swap my equipment around and still have 100 more MP than you with equal CHR. You can't win, and later on in life when you're going to be depended on by an alliance to throw in a few heals and have enough CHR to land debuffs on monsters you won't be able to match a Tarutaru. Your STR is meaningless, then and now.
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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Deedlit


                          Aha, there I disagree with you. I had a similar conversation the other day with a taru friend of mine. In an exp PT (I play a SMN) I never have below 200 mp, and this is with constant chaining, and me being main healer with a BRD to help. Essentially, this 200 mp, in MOST circumstances, is utterly useless to me, because it is never drained from - AND I'm a mithra, with about 760-ish mp at level 53. Whereas, yes, a taru may have more mp than me, and because he is so much more used to taking advantage of this, he is also usually left with 150-200 mp - BUT, he has more downtime because he has more mp to regen. I don't have downtime, especially with SMN refresh.

                          So, yes, they have more mp than me - that's fine. I don't use that mp anyway. However, I also don't go splat if I get accidental agro - in that respect, hp is much more important to me.

                          I still don't see how you can say that hp is not important to BRDs. I have friends who refuse to bring a taru BRD on a BCNM 40 fight because they die too quick.
                          Those Taru BRDs need more experience with crowd control, then

                          And if you find yourself with more MP than you need, you're not fighting things hard enough for your group level, or quickly enough. Or use that extra 200 MP and go for another chain.

                          A bard's MP in this case isn't a huge amount, and any extra the better, since the more we have to spend the more you don't have to spend, and the more you don't have the spend the more we can chain before downtime. Win/Win for everyone :spin:
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                          • #43
                            Also, keep the argument going. This is the second-longest thread in this forum, we can make it the longest if we keep it up!
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                            • #44
                              I've been reading this thread for a while, and I figured I throw in my thoughts about the subject. I'll start off saying that I'm an elvaan bard and before that I was a white mage. I started off the game as a fighter, which was my main reason for choosing elvaan as my race. I got thrown into being a white mage when some of my friends started playing the game as nobody else wanted to be a healer. Later I picked up bard when everyone got their subjobs so I could continue leveling alongside them. I would always read these "best race" threads and although everyone would always say that skill was most important, I would always feel kinda down about never being able to play at my job's full potential. I would have changed my race if it weren't for my extreme laziness.

                              When I started playing bard I knew I'd at least have my high CHR going for me. I would sometimes see mithran or galkan bards and think to myself, "yay, I can finally say that if I played at an equal skill-level, I'm a better bard than this person!". When I got to wear my RSE, I had a great amount of MP, somewhere around 200 after food in the 30's. Now that I'm getting more and more AF, however, I have to give up some of my RSE, taking a cut in my mp pool. When I lost all this mp I started feeling down a little bit about my race again. Right now I'm level 57, have 150mp, and +37CHR.

                              It's hard to not feel special when you play as a bard, as we get invites within minutes. I remember getting upset one time when I had to wait an hour for an invite. The fact is regardless of race you'll get invites often within seconds. Bard is easily the least stat-dependent class in the game, and many people feel it to be overpowered. I'm sure I could play with no equipment (except instruments) and people would still be begging me to stay when I tell them I need to go to sleep. Yes I feel CHR is an important stat, but my Jesters Cape +1 (+10CHR) won't make as huge a difference like say...a life belt will for a DRK (+10 acc). I go after all the CHR I can get mostly because if I didn't have something to strive for I would probably quit. Ever since I got Ballad II I hardly ever look at my MP bar. By the time I finish singing all my songs the monster is usually almost dead, if not actually dead. At that point the WHM is resting and I'll throw a couple Cure IIIs/Regens out and start over. Rarely do I ever have to rest. Just yesterday I was getting 6k EXP/hr, so don't try and say my PTs fight the right mobs. In that PT I kneeled twice, only because we had killed all the mobs in the area (we were the only party there too).

                              After all that, here's my point. People read this thread and see a lvl75 BRD saying that taru is the best race. Even though Aniga said that all bards are great if they have skill, people will always be thinking in the back of their heads that others are better simply because they play as a different race. The word "best" always implies a "worst". Both those words are more powerful than you may understand. I'm sure there are mithrans out there who like the support role and wish to go bard, but decide to go RDM when they hear a mithran doesn't make a good BRD. It pains me to think that I used to think the same way, because it simply isn't true. Every bard, regardless or race, is a huge contribution to the party and a blast to play. Rather than argue about who is better (and not even by much), why can't we all just be happy that we are the most-wanted members in almost every pt and will never have to wait 6+ hours for invites

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                              • #45
                                Brd is a special job, any race can do it well.

                                However since we seek the BEST even if its by a ridiculous little margin we will want consider these points.

                                As for Exp party is concerned :

                                Tarutaru is best choice , as it was pointed out MP and CHR are the only stats that matters.

                                As for BCNM :

                                Tarutaru isnt the best choice anymore, since a third stat will kick in ... HP. You can say you can get the job done all you want, you would still benefit from extra HP here, more than you will benefit from the extra MP.

                                As for HNM :

                                Depends on which one you are fighting but Tarutaru will be better in most of them (if not all). As she pointed out if you get hit here you will die even if you are a Galka.

                                Anyway the difference is minimal! No one will refuse a Galka BRD for a exp party or a HNM hunt. but they will refuse a tarutaru BRD for BCNM (although here skill and experience and equipment counts more than the race).

                                If you ask me best race for an all around BRD situation i will go with Hume.

                                MP regen > MP Pool. There's a soft cap since our regen MP abilities are good plus we can use food to further enhance them.

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