if you ever heard brd sub sucks, read this

[subjectivist]

reading the forum I hear a lot of trash about bard sub, only one song, only singing, sucks, don't do it, bla bla bla

but these people really haven't thought much about it or done the calculations. Subbing bard is just like subbing whitemage, and do people do that? Yep...

lets get dirty with it: I'll compare a bard sub to two times the bard subs level:
Half the song quatities (1/2)
Half the song qualities (1/2)
Half the instrument (singing has a weak effect, so 1/2) this is probably less than one half but to feed you dogs lets just say it is
Half singing skill (level lowers singing skill again, so 1/2)

so 1/(2*2*2*2)=1/16 (.0625). A bard sub is 1/16th as good as a bard two times the sub level. Wow, sounds sucky, eh?

Not so sucky when compared to a whitemage sub, something bsts, blms, and I guess some other classes do:

Half the spell qualities (1/2)
Half the skill levels (1/2)
And then the tricky part, using http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~nhart/Status_calculator.htm I calculated taru whm sub MP and whm main mp, because MP is one key part to being whm, and that gets us (184/718)

so 184/(718*2*2)= around .06407, a little over 1/16


the thing is I don't think singing is 1/2 as effective as playing an instrument, like the calcs said... if singing was 2/3rds as good it would make the number .08 something

regardless, I think BRD can definitely be a good sub

(but noo, a blackmage needs mana from whm sub!! did you just say ballad?)

also, you guys just bashing a subjob you've never tried are just like the people who said bst was hopeless but look how good they do

[Jei]

/brd is not suck, of course it gives some help but it is not so useful in most cases. This is just my opinion.
between, don't rely your information on stat calculator which is never correct and ignore the voice from players with years of experienced

First off I think you already know that /BRD is not for front liner to sub in any case. So that leave the best singer to mages. WHM BLM and RDM might be the one to use /BRD in a party.

Songs are always useful. But look at it this way. BRD has a series of songs. Just like Blackmage fire1 fire2 fire3 fire4 etc. As BRD grows in level they got better and better song. Like Minuette 1 minuette2 minuette3 and so on. Minuette 3 will of course boost dramaticly much more than 1.

So at higher level like 60/30brd, the song you can sing is already "30" levels behind your main job. They add only very little boost that it's not obvious or really doing anything at all.
And for mages, in order to be able to sing a 30-level-below songs, they lose the opportunity to gain tons of extra MP and useful magics using other mage job as sub.

Not to mention main BRD can have 2 powerful songs going on at the same time while sub bard can only have a single weak song going.

Half-skill will hurt even more when it comes to songs you sing "to the enemy" like finare (dispel 1 positive effect on enemies) your instrument skill plays the main role here whether your song will be resisted or not. Main bard with their skill all the way max still have a chance to fail their songs. So don't even think about using those songs with /BRD.

The only reason anyone would want to /brd, is for ballard. Ballard 1 is level 25 which means it can be sung by a level 50 main job and above. So, some situation that /brd might be truely helpful to the group is
1. you have no real bard.
2. your group already have other magics needed for survival
3. you desperately need MP regenerator....

1. is obvious. You lack a real BRD means you lack a bit MP regen power. So /brd for extra ballard can help a bit.
2. when your party is facing some sure-death encounter, being able to sing 1 song won't safe anyone. But if the WHM/BRD use sub BLM instead, He/she can cast escape and bring the party to safety.
3. will kinda like 1. no real bard, no redmage, ooo you'll have a long long resting time to regain MP. ballard 1 once again can help reduce down time a tiny bit.

[subjectivist]

I agree with you guys a lot, and your posts are on-point and well thought out.

Jei said "The only reason anyone would want to /brd, is for ballard", but I don't think that's totally true. Paeons are useful, and less skill based than songs like Minuet. At level 39 my bard's Paeon 3 and Paeon 2 give +6 hp per interval, and at 15 you can sing Paeon 2, which would add +2 hp to 6, which also helps with down-time.

Bard can sing 2 songs, meaning they can't sing them all, so even with a bard in the party you'd have utility.

Thanks for adding to the discussion

[tonka]

I thought the real cost of bard spells was time to cast, not MP.

That being the case, subbing /brd means the songs are still long cast time and sucky.

When you sub /whm, yes you have lower heal spells but that means they also cost less as well.

Lower bard songs aren't quicker to cast, AFAIK.

[peptile]

You are basing that all off assumtions and calculations... it might not look bad on PAPER, but wait untill you PLAY THE GAME with bard as the sub.

After I got bard, I wanted to level up both red and white, just so I could decide which one to go with(both are at 14, and im still undecided ). While I was lvl'ing them up, I set bard as my sub so I could play around with it, get to know it some more, make macros for the songs etc....

IT MADE ME SICK! Bard has a TON of power and support, and anyone who would want to cut it to a point of almost being worthless needs to be kicked in the head... MULTIPLE TIMES!!!

[sudo]

I thought spells cost the same even in sub so that lowered MP really hurts. Am I totally off my rocker?

[Extreme]

Ive seen alot of rdm's sub brd, for refresh + ballad.. no complaints from me

[HexiumVII]

Hi, i have a friend who is a whm and wants to sub bard. He likes all his teleport and sneak spells so he wants to keep them. Anyways if you sub bard does that mean you can only have 1 song on a person at once? From the limited time i've seen bards at work it seems that the accuracy helps enourmously, which is the main song he wants to be using and maybe MP on the mages. How feasable is this? Will the song not be as effective becuase of no instrument?

[subjectivist]

to answer, Hexium

I took a short break from bard to level whitemage at level 30 a little more. Weighing RDM sub against BRD sub, RDM sub gave +26 MP +1 MND and Fast Cast (these numbers were the actual numbers from the game, but they match the stat calculator, so if I had BLM leveled it would've given around +42 MP and Conserve MP), while BRD would give me Paeon2 and Madrigal. Since the party was a little mage-heavy I ended up subbing BRD because I figured the 90 HP gained from an extra Cure2 would be offset by the accuracy increase and after battle Paeon2's +2 HP regen, and Fast Cast wouldn't be an issue because, as an Elvaan, my Cure3 was almost maxed. The party had no problems with it and it worked out pretty well (not great because the party set-up was weak, nothing to do with subbing BRD). One thing though, as an Elvaan I had learned ways to conserve MP (like Regen on the THF instead of Cure because they wouldn't get hit as much, or sitting while the battle starts and standing when they get to 2/3 HP). If you suck at conserving your MP then BRD would make it worse because of the 8 second song cast at the beginning and after battle.

If your friend likes teleport and sneak, BRD/WHM gets that later on (sneak at 40, invis at 50, teleports at 72), and BLM sub for WHM gets Warp which is great (teleport to Home-point). I think because of resistance to non-traditional combinations you'll get more PT invites as WHM/BLM rather than WHM/BRD (but WHM gets plenty of invites already).

It's all a matter of weighing what a party needs and what would make them better. /BRD is definitely better for a level 50 RDM or WHM than for a level 49 and below though, because of Ballad.



edit: totally forgot the song question of your post. Yes, BRD sub means only one song because you cannot equip an instrument. I sung Madrigal for the fighters at the start of the battle and Paeon2 right after.