BRD/WHM vs BRD/RDM

[Nassa]

Hi all,

I'm having some trouble deciding what my future bard is going to be. I've decided that I will be Elvan vs. taru, for the higher MND and the extra HP's (a dead healer isn't a very effective healer).
I'm however, not quite sure whether a WHM or RDM would be better as a sub.

From reading the forum, it seems that the main advantage to using a WHM sub is to cast curaga. However, curaga costs 60MP and an Elvan BRD/WHM doesn't even get 60MP until lvl 36. Even at lvl 70, the Elvan BRD/WHM will only have 112MP, not quite enough for casting 2 curaga's.

The BRD/RDM on the other hand, will benefit from having more spell choices. It will still be a very useful healer with it's ability to cast the cureX series, as well as status protection spells. I've also read somewhere that the RDM is the best at status change spells of all the mages. In terms of stats, the Elvan BRD/RDM is only slightly lower than the BRD/WHM in important areas, having only 1 pt less CHR and 3 pt less MND even at lvl 70. In addition, BRD/RDM will have a greater selections of possibly +stat equipment, such as ability to use a shield, which I think the BRD cannot do.

So what does everyone think? I've haven't played yet so everything is just theoretically at this point. But I will be getting my import copy in a week or so and I would like to have this figured out before I start playing. Any comments or corrections would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Nassa

[Chucklez_1]

RDM will give less Mp. not subbing a WHM won't give u the spells to cure status spells. Oh yeah, RDM's status protection is self only while WHM's are group based. Also Charisma increases the effectiveness of songs. Yeah RDM's got the best enfeebles but the BLm or the WHM can do that job if RDM's are not available. They just won't be able to do it successfully like RDM's can :p . besides BRDs are busy as it is in battle, especially when enemies are linking

RDMs are a still good sub tho but it won't be as effective as a BRD/WHM

[Fallnight]

Originally posted by Chucklez_1
RDM will give less Mp. not subbing a WHM won't give u the spells to cure status spells. Oh yeah, RDM's status protection is self only while WHM's are group based. Also Charisma increases the effectiveness of songs. Yeah RDM's got the best enfeebles but the BLm or the WHM can do that job if RDM's are not available. They just won't be able to do it successfully like RDM's can :p . besides BRDs are busy as it is in battle, especially when enemies are linking

RDMs are a still good sub tho but it won't be as effective as a BRD/WHM

you forgot about that rdm's fast cast Passive ability works on songs too "every second counts" when in the start of battle u have to sing MIN 5 songs in a roll and not to mention when linked the sleep song will be faster cast.

RDM also give you more flexibility interms of sometimes the pt don't need u to heal at all (like two tarutaru as mages ) so u can have some fun lving up ur combat skill and do some real demage at lv 28+ (elemental weapon enchant)

not to mention that at lv 66 you get the rdm only phalax

and when lv 85 rolls around ^^ u get the cool refresh too ( even longer way to go ;; )

however is not BETTER then sub whm ... is just that ur role will be different sometimes and with flaxibility

and been bard... it doesn't matter what u sub.. u will get pt anyway ;

[Callous]

then why wont you just pick brd/rdm you obviously have a strong argument for them so go ahead and pick them.....

[Fallnight]

because I am a bard/red ; ; ........

[Paradigm]

Err, isn't fastcast a 2 hour ability? If so.... you will not be able to use it if your main is bard and your sub is rdm

[Fallnight]

;;

fast cast I am talking about is the one that shorten your casting time by about 10% is a passive ability

the 2 hr one is another story

[Callous]

fallnight how is the brd/rdm combo??? is it better than brd/whm in your opinion and what is the in game advantages NOT speculations or calculations that other people add.....

[Gak912]

Re: BRD/WHM vs BRD/RDM

Originally posted by Nassa
Hi all,

I'm having some trouble deciding what my future bard is going to be. I've decided that I will be Elvan vs. taru, for the higher MND and the extra HP's (a dead healer isn't a very effective healer).
I'm however, not quite sure whether a WHM or RDM would be better as a sub.

From reading the forum, it seems that the main advantage to using a WHM sub is to cast curaga. However, curaga costs 60MP and an Elvan BRD/WHM doesn't even get 60MP until lvl 36. Even at lvl 70, the Elvan BRD/WHM will only have 112MP, not quite enough for casting 2 curaga's.

Bard's job is to support the other players with songs, healing is just an added feature to support the party. As a Hume BRD60/WHM30, I have 130 MP (keep in mind that stat calculators don't factor in any of the many pieces of equipment that will change your HP and MP). Bards can learn Ballad, an MP regenerating song. This will essentially allow you to have more MP to use. With Ballad and Ballad2 active, MP will regenerate at a rate of 3 MP per 3 seconds for 2 minutes (so for my Hume, I can have 250 MP total to use). However, sometimes you may be too busy singing to have a chance to heal. I often will only use 30-50 MP in a battle, since Ballad will have given me back some MP while I was healing (after I had sung songs for the whole party).

The BRD/RDM on the other hand, will benefit from having more spell choices. It will still be a very useful healer with it's ability to cast the cureX series, as well as status protection spells.

While they are able to use Cure spells, they learn them at a later level. For instance, WHM learns Cure2 at level 11, while RDM learns it at 14. A three level gap isn't such a big deal here, but since you would have one of these as your subjob, this gap is increased. You would have Cure2 with BRD22/WHM11 or BRD28/RDM14. This is a larger gap, and depening on your PT, you may want Cure2 at an earlier level.

I've also read somewhere that the RDM is the best at status change spells of all the mages.

While this is true, keep in mind that your skill with that type of magic is based on your sub job's level, since BRD has no weakening(enfeebling on Beta?) magic skill to start with. This sub job magic skill cap would not apply to a BLM/RDM or WHM/RDM though.

In addition, BRD/RDM will have a greater selections of possibly +stat equipment, such as ability to use a shield, which I think the BRD cannot do.

BRDs cannot use any shields at all, and subjob will not have any effect on what you can equip. Although for a job like BLM, who can equip a few shields, yet has no shielding skill, is able to shield an attack if they have a sub job that does have the ability to shield attacks.

So what does everyone think? I've haven't played yet so everything is just theoretically at this point. But I will be getting my import copy in a week or so and I would like to have this figured out before I start playing. Any comments or corrections would be greatly appreciated.

Personally, I think that if you were only to raise one sub for BRD, use WHM. Being able to heal your PT members of status effects such as poison or paralysis is something that you wouldn't be able to do with RDM sub. Curaga is helpful, but since it costs 60 MP and can create a lot of hate, should only be used in situations where you need it. I think it would be better to have Curaga for emergencies at the very least, since you never know when you'll need to use it.

Let's say your party is hopelessly linked, and the WHM starts casting a teleport spell. This would leave them unable to heal, so other party members must take over that role. Bards don't often get hit unless they've created hate, which usually only happens when you use lullaby. So, your party is losing health, but you have nearly full health and enough MP for Curaga. Ideally, you would want to try to put at least one if not all the monsters to sleep, then use WHM's level 15 ability, which will double the amount healed with your next curative spell. You cast Curaga and your party members are healed. Unfortunately, you were unable to put one of the monsters to sleep, and it is now beating away at your HP. Luckily, the WHM finishes the spell, and the party is teleported to safety.

While Curaga is handy in tight situations, it isn't the end-all-be-all spell, so don't feel obligated to use WHM sub.

RDM sub, I feel, doesn't add a whole lot to what a WHM sub would do for you. You get cure spells at later levels, you lose the status correcting "-Na" spells you get with WHM, and in place of that, you get En-element spells that will add an element to your weapon. As I said before, Bards are busy singing. The only time you might really fight as a bard is up to level 25. They gradually become weaker than the main fighters, and are better off supporting the party, so fighting is pretty useless.

Now, one of the best reasons to sub RDM: Fast Cast. This is the passive ability RDM gets at level 15. It will speed up the time it takes to sing a song, which is pretty lengthy otherwise. It can be useful, but I don't feel that singing faster is more important than being able to use -na spells and Curaga. However, the only reason I would consider a RDM sub personally, is for Dispel. It is magic only RDM can use, at level 32. It will get rid of an effect the monster has, such as Protect, Shell, Defense Up, or Evasion Up. This effect is the same as Bard's Finale, at level 33. But Finale has a lengthy recharge time, and some monsters will use spells like protect or stat enhancing abilities numerous times, too fast for you to get rid of them all.

Overall: If you have time, raise both jobs and use either depending on what type of party you have. If you can only use one sub job, go with WHM, as it is generally more "wanted" in PTs and has many uses. But BRD is pretty popular anyway, so much that people may not even care what sub job you use.

[Nassa]

Thanks Gak for such a comprehensive reply to my original post. I think you have clarified many of the issues involved in selection of a sub-job for the bard, and makes many good points.

Thank you,
Nassa
Rdm/Whm/Thief - 18/16/8
Ragnorak Server

[peptile]

It is really hard to pick between the two. I am in the same situation...

Whm is ok because it lets you heal people and stuff which parties like.

But rdm lets you cast enthunder, which looks so cool!

Its a trade off.

I asked this on a different post, but I will put it here anyway:

Isnt the red mage fast cast ability simply change when the spell takes effect? Not the casting time?

Example: Songs take 8 seconds*. Without red mage, you start to sing, and 7 seconds later the song takes effect, leaving 1 second of wrap up time.
With red mage, you would start to sing the song, and 6 seconds later the song would take effect, now leaving 2 seconds of wrap up time?

The casting time would still be 8 seconds....

Is that how it works or am I just crazy?

*I just pulled those numbers randomly, they sound right, but i could be wrong.