an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

[Silversky]

There's always a ton of talk about "this subjob being ultimate" or "this subjob never working," and things like that, and it made me think of an idea.

thematically, a lot of jobs sound similar or like they'd compliment each other, when in reality, they don't. so i was thinking, what if, when subbing a job that is thematically similar or complimentary, you get added bonuses from the sub that other jobs would not. here are some ideas. some might sound broken, but who knows? maybe they'll work without upsetting the balance.

BRD/DNC: the ultimate performance job. with this setup, here are some ideas: singing songs gives you some amount of tp, singing debuff songs puts samba effects on for the melee jobs.

DNC/BRD: the other ultimate performance job. with this setup, perhaps the DNC could have two songs up instead of just one like other jobs. not too overpowered since you'd only get up to 37 songs, and you dont get the benefit of instruments (only singing skill) but you still get to have two additional songs up.

SMN/BLM: normally, this combination sucks. but here's a thought: while you have a specific avatar out, with this sub, two things could happen. 1) all elemental abilities/spells of the party that share the element of the summoned avatar get a boost while its out (so healing/light spells and abilities boosted while carby's out, fire spells/abilities boosted while ifrit is out, etc) -and to balance this, the opposing element is weakened- and then 2) the corresponding elemental spell from your BLM list would get a boost in some form or another (so, if say ifrit is out, then your Fire spell becomes Fire II or Fire III and is affected by your summoning skill, not your elemental skill level). this would effectively turn SMN into a true support job.

BLM/SMN: again, like above, having a summon out would boost corresponding spells/abilities. it also wouldn't tick down your mp as much as avatars might normally, but there's still a perpetuation cost. this would make BLM's less resisted by mobs with avatars out, as well as boost damage perhaps.

BLU/RDM: i just thought this idea was thematically interesting with the dual colors. i don't have any very strong ideas for a synergetic ability, but maybe others do. the reverse would get it as well.

here are some other synergetic ideas that i haven't quite formulated, but thematically work:

SAM/NIN and NIN/SAM -both are the "far east" jobs in the game. perhaps, since NIN dual wield and SAM use two-handed weapons, there's some boost there?

also:

PLD/WHM

DRK/BLM

PLD/DRK or DRK/PLD

BLU/BST or BST/BLU (both deal with monsters and manipulating/learning from them)

post other ideas, or ideas for these jobs!

[meSchnitzel]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

They already have this type of thing in the earrings you can buy at 30 and the belts, as well as other items that have latent effects based on sub job.

One tha really comes forward as awesome is the Dragoon sub job items. Haste and Att bonuses for subbing a job that most wouldnt sub ever.

[Silversky]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

thats a little different than what im talking about though.

those provide bonuses based off of your subjob, regardless of what your main job is.

my idea here is that jobs that are thematically compatible would provide benefits when combined in a job/subjob pairing, to provide more unique and viable subjob options to alleviate ubiquity of certain subs (nin, whm, etc.)

additionally, there the supplementation would be more universally supportive, as opposed to just an increase in an ability or two. it would be a unique, case-specific benefit.

[Balfree]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

If such bonuses existed people would probably stick to cookie-cutter combinations even more than what they already do.

[Firewind]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

SAM/NIN and NIN/SAM -both are the "far east" jobs in the game. perhaps, since NIN dual wield and SAM use two-handed weapons, there's some boost there?

No, please, please, please don't encourage this.

If I see a SAM subbing NIN and they aren't tanking or meriting they will be having to give me a good explanation before they are kindly asked to change to a real DD sub or leave the party for wasting my MP.

[ospeff]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

Actually they are saving MP by not taking hits.

[Firewind]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

They are wasting my MP by gimping their damage output and causing the tank to take more hits before the mob dies

[ospeff]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

You waste more MP with when you Raise/Heal people with crap defenses, etc.

[Firewind]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

So it's okay to let the tank take more hits because a DD is using a gimped sub and you think that healers use less MP when a tank is taking more hits.

Your logic frightens me.

[Silversky]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

well, the point is, they'll get some sort of benefit that actually makes the sub useful. as it stands now, its not a good sub to DD in, i understand that. im not trying to justify using the sub now. all im saying is, since they have commonalities between them, they could get a benefit from subbing nin that would only go into effect if a sam subbed it. that make sense? it doesnt have to be a bonus to two handed weapons, that was just a thought.

i think, when people read this thread, they automatically look at how subjobs work for certain mains as they are now. the point is that, with that specific pairing ONLY, they would get an additional benefit since the jobs are similar in function or in theme. this would increase the variability in subjobs so that everyone wasnt using the same one.

and i dont see how this would make people stick to cookie cutter combos even more. i would assume people would vary it up a bit because of it.

[Raydeus]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

If the specific bonuses from job combinations were good enough a lot of people would never dare to sub anything that didn't get a bonus. And they would argue that's the way SE intended jobs to be played because of it.

Also, the game has something similar already in the form of skill ratings and traits.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

SE has been giving incentives to sub new things, its just that people are lazy or just too stupid to diversify.

SAM got tweaked so DRK, DRG, WAR and RNG would sub something more than /WAR, /THF or /NIN all the time (or in WAR's cast, just /NIN). The mindless adherence to /NIN continues, but that'st he fault of players that fail to diversify. DRKs, DRGs, WARs and RNGs that persue the SAM subjob get a little something more than they had before and will use it in the right. SAM turned out to be pretty nice for sub for DNC as well, but just because people prefer /NIN for DNC doesn't make them all that lazy, it has practical applications. /NIN has practical applications for a lot of jobs, its just mostly WARs that fail to look beyond the options they have beyond /NIN.

SCH was added to the game to diversify mage sub options. So far, its not panned out, but its more due to the nature of what other mages subs already offer BLMs and RDMs than it is for lacking option. I must say, though, for events where BLMs are not crowd controlling or nuking statues - you guys are fools for ignoring the benefits of Parsimony and sublimation under /SCH. You'd gain tremendous MP endurance from /SCH. WHM draws more benefits from SCH in general, but half-priced Tier IVs and AMs is worthy of consideration, especially since Parsimony can stack with Conserve MP.

As a SCH, though, I don't really need more subjob options, by the time I hit 68, I've earned the right to whore out /RDM in every aspect of the levels beyond it. Nothing else gives me more diverse options. I guess I could level DRK for Stun or PLD for Flash, but I don't see a great incentive to do so.

BLU is unsung in some spots, but great for some low-end aspects of the game. WAR/BLU is a nice early tank. BST/BLU can get Beast Killer early when they're actually mostly facing Beast-type mobs. BST actually gets the trait at 60, by which time we're up to our ears in Birds, Plantoids, Vermin and, well, anything that isn't a Beast type. BLU also is nice for when SCHs get sublimation, but don't have Stoneskin available under WHM or RDM or just don't a SMN around for Earthen Ward. CORs can use BLU at higher levels to max Quick Draw accuracy with the AGI bonuses from spells and raise Quick Draw damage through set spell traits.

So you see, there are incentives for subbing different things. The benefit of /DNC to BRD is it helps them maintain better soloability than most other subs available to them. There's no real reason for BRD/DNC in EXP PT since it would actually be a distraction to thier most important duties. DNC/BRD would be role confusion and cut huge into a DNC's ability to gain TP from DDing. PLD/WHM is already a respectable soloist, but not practical for EXP or Campaign.

There are benefits to certain job combinations, but they don't all have to be applicable to EXP parties.

[ospeff]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

So it's okay to let the tank take more hits because a DD is using a gimped sub and you think that healers use less MP when a tank is taking more hits.

Your logic frightens me.

A well geared DD that is going all out is going to pull hate, so he will gimp his own damage on purpose. With /NIN sub they don't have to as they can take a few hits before hate is re-established.

By your logic a black mage should sub SMN or SCH because it gives them more MP and INT to do damage and you have to heal less? Except the black mage dies in 1 hit when he gets hate, thats why they all sub RDM and WHM for blink/skin.

[Raydeus]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

Whether DDs should sub nin or not is completely situational and should never be considered as something set in stone (either way.)

Both approaches work depending on the party's setup and killing speed as a whole.

High dmd output parties where the tank is only there to get the attention of the mob at the begining of the fight while the rest of the party gets TP/gets the SC going/etc. to finish the mob off fast require full DD subs.

Medium dmg DoT parties where 1 or 2 DDs can pull hate from the tank temporarily with a WS -without being able to finish the mob off with it-. Then go /nin

Etc. etc.

It all depends on how good the party leader is. Which is also why JP parties take some more time to get started (up to an hour sometimes), as changing subs to fit the party setup is standard procedure.

[Durahansolo]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

A well geared DD that is going all out is going to pull hate, so he will gimp his own damage on purpose. With /NIN sub they don't have to as they can take a few hits before hate is re-established.

By your logic a black mage should sub SMN or SCH because it gives them more MP and INT to do damage and you have to heal less? Except the black mage dies in 1 hit when he gets hate, thats why they all sub RDM and WHM for blink/skin.

SAM has Seigan Third Eye at 35 so with that they'll be able to mitigate damage by light countering and anticipating. As WAR/SAM I anticipated 7-8 hits once and I was in shock since I had never anticipated that many hits before, but I have seen SAM do it like that before. Also, that's why some SAMs sub /THF so they can transfer hate from their repeated weapon skills since they can gain TP fast. But as Raydeus said it is puretly situational. I prefer to be WAR/SAM, but sometimes I am asked to be WAR/NIN especially if I'm gonna tank. I also go /NIN if I know that the camp might be hard to get to so I can bring Ninjutsu Sneak and Invisible.

WAR/MNK Synergy FTW!!!!!!!!!! (J/K but I miss WAR/MNK)